2006 Cardinals: Is Dennis Green a Fraud?

[Mitch]

Mitch c'mon man. I will give you that his game adjustments and planning haven't been stellar lately, but to be honest you can say that about nearly every coach who has had success, only to fail later? Is Joe Gibbs an idiot, Vermeil, Gruden? Damn that, people are starting to question Andy Reid here! These same clowns seem to have forgotten the Kotite era. I'm all for us making a change if this season goes nowhere, but not because I think Green's a fraud, it's just that he couldn't get it done here. He's still a good coach in my book.

What makes me most suspicious is why Green doesn't call the plays himself?...he could have spared making Rowen the scapegoat and done what Coughlin, Fassell and others have done when the chips were down, take the onus in their own hands...it makes you wonder if he actaully can call the plays himself...if this is his "system", why shouldn't he be able to?

Instead he's asking another assistant who has never called a play in an NFL game to do it.

I am hoing that Kruczek will be the answer...but...it mystifies me that Green doesn't take want to take the bull into his own hands...which is why it makes me wonder whether he is capable of or even thinks himself capable of it.

The in-game coaching under Green's regime has been about as abysmal as one can imagine. Which again begs the question...

Is he a total fraud? Of course, not.

Does he want the onus of the play-calling on his shoulders directly? Apparently not. Making others scapegoats and not coming to the rescue himself make me question his credibility. Deep down inside, don't you question it?

Think about it...if your job was on the line and you've been in the business for 30 years, who would you want calling the plays? Yourself or someone who has never called a play in an NFL game?

Talk about lucky...if Kruczek saves the day and subsequently Green's job...because right now it's all on Krucz's shoulders. Good thing Kruczek has Matt Leinart to work with.

 

[CaptTurbo]

Honestly, LV, I haven't read one rebuttal and defense of Green that was even in the slightest bit persuasive.

The only thing posters keep referring to is the talent he's brought in. Even I don't question that, except with regard to the offensive line, his coich to play a slower than average player at FS and his choice to keep John Navarre as the #3 QB.

What difference does it make what the talent is, if the coach continues to find ways to watch his team self-destruct?

The Rowen incident has had me fuming for several days now. And, like many others, I have questioned Rowen's inexperience as an OC and I was one of the more dubious posters when Rowen was first hired...for me that has nothing to do, however, with the way in which this situation was handled. I think it's a disgrace to make him the scapegoat...and I would have been equally incenced if Gary Zauner was fired instead (one certainly can make the argument that special teams more than anything else have contributed to the last two losses)...

And, honestly, LV, if I was seeing smart coaching decisions from the sidelines on a regular basis, or even on a more frequent basis than what we have been seeing, I wouldn't be so skeptical about Green's abilities as a head coach.

Do you want a rebutal or reasons that you find persuasive. I honestly do not care what your thoughts on Green are and I know how I feel about Green will not change you mind.

How did he get lucky with 3 good receivers and luck out? He has the same talent at qb/wr now imo. Did Green also just 'get lucky' with the vikes oline, dline, rb, etc etc?

This division isnt exactly the powerhouse either.

Green did not destroy some winning mentality the cards organization had. It will take many years to overcome that. We can either let Green do it, or have him start it, and hope you get lucky on the next coach who can continue it along, fire him, and hope you get lucky on the third coach during the time it will take to beat this mentality out of the team.

I dont want another unproven coach. Now, that being said, I wont cry if we get Jeff Fischer.

Also, unfortunately Greens assistants are all head coaches. So he is having to rebuild a staff from scratch or take lower level assistance.

I have another million reasons why I want to keep Green and I have a few dozen as to why I do not.

 

[slanidrac16]

Plain and simple.

Win, and there are no issues. Lose, ( and you can look at ANY losing team) and everything becomes an issue. EVERY decision is magnified and EVERY mistake is monumental.

 

[PACardsFan]

Mitch,
You're a very knowledgeable Cardinal fan & if I had the time to read your entire post, I would probably agree with most of it, if not all of it. I will make this short & sweet. Unless the Cardinals win at least 7 games & probably 8, Green should be fired. If the Cardinals close strong & finish with a winning record, then he will deserve another year. It's as simple as that. There's no sense in arguing back & forth on this issue. He needs to win or else he's gone. This franchise needs to win NOW!!!!!

 

[phillycard]

What makes me most suspicious is why Green doesn't call the plays himself?...he could have spared making Rowen the scapegoat and done what Coughlin, Fassell and others have done when the chips were down, take the onus in their own hands...it makes you wonder if he actaully can call the plays himself...if this is his "system", why shouldn't he be able to?

Instead he's asking another assistant who has never called a play in an NFL game to do it.

I am hoing that Kruczek will be the answer...but...it mystifies me that Green doesn't take want to take the bull into his own hands...which is why it makes me wonder whether he is capable of or even thinks himself capable of it.

The in-game coaching under Gren's regime has been about as abysmal as one can imagine. Which again begs the question...

Is he a total fraud? Of course, not.

Does he want the onus of the play-calling on his shoulders directly? Apparently not. Making others scapegoats and not coming to the rescue himself make me question his credibility. Deep down inside, don't you question it?

Think about it...if your job was on the line and you've been in the business for 30 years, who would you want calling the plays? Yourself or someone who has never called a play in an NFL game?

Talk about lucky...if Kruczek saves the day and subsequently Green's job...because right now it's all on Krucz's shoulders. Good thing Kruczek has Matt Leinart to work with.

Point taken there sir. I hate to see Rowen made the scapegoat here. Especially since apparently we are the only offense in the Bears previous opponents who were capable of moving the rock against them. Was he doing a bad job when we jumped on top of S.F., K.C., and Chicago?? What was wrong DG with a "hey Keith don't pull back on me now, let's do this!!!" That's where the interchange between HC and assistants is critical.

 

[moklerman]

Has Dennis Green really been "handcuffed" by ownership? It seems to me that the Cardinals, although $10 million under the cap, have been spending a LOT of money over the last couple of years. Do we know that Green asked for players/assistants/coordinators and was denied?

I'm skeptical of this "handcuffed" line of thinking. Historically the Card's have been...frugal. Recently, that doesn't seem to be the case.

I would like to see someone put together some kind of information about how Green's talent evaluation really stacks up. I really don't know who he was responsible for in Minnesota and I don't give him credit for Leinart at all. Fitzgerald has turned out to be a stud but with all the personal relationships involved I don't know how much that pick would have been made otherwise. It's just too damaging to his credibility how the o-line has been handled. From what I've seen, it would have been better to keep Shelton and Kendall than what's out there now. That's all debatable of course, but the question at hand is DG's talent evaluating and the o-line debacle over the last 3 years doesn't support him being good at it.

Lastly, I've seen more than once someone post that it takes time and/or years to turn things around on an NFL franchise. That's complete bunk. I come from Rams roots and they are the poster child for turning things around quickly(both ways). Worst team of the 90's in the NFC. 4-12 in 1998, Super Bowl winners in 1999. It doesn't take 3+ years to turn things around if you know what you're doing. DG's in his 3rd year and, when you boil it all down, doing less with more than when he started.

Should he be fired? No, not right now. Changing the head coach midstream, unless his long term replacement is available, isn't productive. Next year? Probably. His message is stale and I don't think he's got what it takes to get a team to the top.

 

[az1965]

I didn't even bother to read after 2-3 paragraphs. We know the level of hatred you have for Green, Mitch. This is getting old. Can you write something useful?

 

[Shane]

I didn't even bother to read after 2-3 paragraphs. We know the level of hatred you have for Green, Mitch. This is getting old. Can you write something useful?

You guys kill me with your hatred of Mitch. Mitch is strong in his feelings and there is nothing wrong with that. He gives many reasons to back up his opinions. The simple fact is much of what he says is true(not all). Also at least he adds a lot to this forum and actually has the balls to write something at all givin the constant attacks by many of you on the board who drink way to much kool-aid especially in relation to green.

You shouldnt tell someone not to state their opinions or to write something useful when you arent writing anything at all or even trying to counter what he says. Many of us enjoy Mitch and his writing. If you dont then just put him on ignore or dont read them and your problem is solved.

 

[az1965]

You guys kill me with your hatred of Mitch. Mitch is strong in his feelings and there is nothing wrong with that. He gives many reasons to back up his opinions. The simple fact is much of what he says is true(not all). Also at least he adds a lot to this forum and actually has the balls to write something at all givin the constant attacks by many of you on the board who drink way to much kool-aid especially in relation to green.

You shouldnt tell someone not to state their opinions or to write something useful when you arent writing anything at all or even trying to counter what he says. Many of us enjoy Mitch and his writing. If you dont then just put him on ignore or dont read them and your problem is solved.

And you should not tell me or others what to say and what not to say. If you don't like what I say, just ignore my post.

He may have some valid points, and I don't drink kool-aid or love Green, but all he keeps doing is and then and then again ...

 

[Cheesebeef]

Has Dennis Green really been "handcuffed" by ownership? It seems to me that the Cardinals, although $10 million under the cap, have been spending a LOT of money over the last couple of years. Do we know that Green asked for players/assistants/coordinators and was denied?

I'm skeptical of this "handcuffed" line of thinking. Historically the Card's have been...frugal. Recently, that doesn't seem to be the case.

not really sure how "10$ million under the cap this year" jives with "historically the Card's have been frugal. Recently that doesn't seem to be the case". If anything, it just shows that they continue to be frugal rather than it not seeming to be the case recently.

As far as it seems that the Cardinals have been spending A LOT of money - every team spends a lot of money. They don't run their organization in a vaccuum.

regardless, DG has been handcuffed IMO, but that doesn't take away from the fact that I believe the game has passed him by as well.

 

[conraddobler]

not really sure how "10$ million under the cap this year" jives with "historically the Card's have been frugal. Recently that doesn't seem to be the case". If anything, it just shows that they continue to be frugal rather than it not seeming to be the case recently.

As far as it seems that the Cardinals have been spending A LOT of money - every team spends a lot of money. They don't run their organization in a vaccuum.

regardless, DG has been handcuffed IMO, but that doesn't take away from the fact that I believe the game has passed him by as well.

I'm honestly torn on this issue, I see the team making huge strides on player retention and in structuring contracts that are now more mainstream NFL in terms of doing business as it's done now.

The new stadium, the naming rights, the new attendance and the luxury boxes have to be pumping money into this team at record levels and yet we don't seem to be doing everything we can in terms of spending money.

I have to wonder at some point what hand Graves has in this, to me it's entirely plausible that his mantra of we aren't one or two players away is his attempt at appealing to the cheaper side of our ownership.

He's had to deal with these people for a long time, during that time we've been excessively cheap IMO, I often wonder if he's up there hammering on Michael to spend more or if he's just developed a mentality that maybe he dosen't even realize he has that tends to shade to the cheap end of the spectrum.

What I'm saying is that maybe Michael as a relatively new owner and a newer owner with money for the first time, maybe he's been too eager to buy into someone telling him things like we aren't one or two players away.

If Graves is in fact a believer in that then he needs to go IMO, he might be the problem.

When a GM in year three of rebuilding says that, he's an idiot, no bones about it, we are one or two players away, that's exactly where we are, dead on where we are and if he dosen't see that either it's ownership hammering that home or he's an idiot, I'd really like to know exactly which one it is because it's an important difference.

Can Michael be sold on spending more if he thought it would help?

That's the question to me.

 

[Shane]

And you should not tell me or others what to say and what not to say. If you don't like what I say, just ignore my post.

He may have some valid points, and I don't drink kool-aid or love Green, but all he keeps doing is and then and then again ...

Boy are you a HUGE hypocrite! You sit there and tell Mitch "try and write something useful" telling him what to say. All I do is suggest you should ignore him or not read him at all or even try to counter what he says with something constructive. Yet you say dont tell you what to say. Pot meet kettle. :roll:

Oh and FYI pretty much everything that is said on here is something that has been said over and over. So we are all beating a whole bunch of dead horses!

 

[Young Card]

Green is not a bad coach. He has given this team a lot of talent and has made us competitive. Remember Mac? He was a bad coach who had to go. Green should get one last year to draft a tackle, guard, center or whatever who can start right away.

 

[Shane]

Green is not a bad coach. He has given this team a lot of talent and has made us competitive. Remember Mac? He was a bad coach who had to go. Green should get one last year to draft a tackle, guard, center or whatever who can start right away.

Green is good at getting talent minus the OL. However he is a terrible gameday coach. Proven it many times.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Green is not a bad coach. He has given this team a lot of talent and has made us competitive. Remember Mac? He was a bad coach who had to go.

You're right on one hand, because Mac was a bad coach, who in his last year, save one game against the Hawks, played 7 straight "should have won" home games (atcually winning 4 of them) and got blown out on the road every game. Denny so far has played 3 straight "should have won" home games (winning none of them and almost losing to the Niners) and has gotten blown out on the road in his only two opportunities this season... and all this with MUCH BETTER TALENT. I think that shows DG to be a bad coach as well. He needs to go, just like the Mackage needed to go.

 

[Goodyear Card]

I think Green has improved every part of the team except the OL. Some of his changes have worked and some haven't but at least he is trying to improve the team. Before we keep the same poor performers hoping they improve or waiting for the line to jell. Kendall was fired because he disagreed with Green. When you argue with the boss you are most likely going to lose. Green was sending a message. If you are not completely dedicated to winning you can go play somewhere else. He has changed the attitude of the team. Green is just as frustrated as everyone else with losing. I have faith he is improving the team and it will be a winning organization.

 

[Shane]

I think Green has improved every part of the team except the OL. Some of his changes have worked and some haven't but at least he is trying to improve the team. Before we keep the same poor performers hoping they improve or waiting for the line to jell. Kendall was fired because he disagreed with Green. When you argue with the boss you are most likely going to lose. Green was sending a message. If you are not completely dedicated to winning you can go play somewhere else. He has changed the attitude of the team. Green is just as frustrated as everyone else with losing. I have faith he is improving the team and it will be a winning organization.

There is no question he has improved the talent. In almost all areas except where it was needed most though. His gameday coaching decisions are terrible and leave a lot to be desired.

 

[Cheesebeef]

There is no question he has improved the talent. In almost all areas except where it was needed most though. His gameday coaching decisions are terrible and leave a lot to be desired.

the special teams have been ATROCIOUS since he got here as well. After three years, you just can't have two ENTIRE UNITS be an absolute abomination and still be considered a good coach IMO.

 

[Shane]

the special teams have been ATROCIOUS since he got here as well. After three years, you just can't have two ENTIRE UNITS be an absolute abomination and still be considered a good coach IMO.

Hey good point. How on earth I forgot to mention them as well is beyond me Cheesey. Thx!

 

[moklerman]

not really sure how "10$ million under the cap this year" jives with "historically the Card's have been frugal. Recently that doesn't seem to be the case".

Well, I'm not a capologist so I'm not convinced that being $10 million under the cap is as cut and dried as it appears. For the sake of argument, let's assume that it is though.

The Cards have gone out and spent money on a lot of players as well as building a new stadium and in general seem to be opening their purse strings so it seems contradictory to think that DG has been denied personnel based on financial restrictions. I don't even know who's choice it was to go after Edge, but it was a blatantly bad decision. Whoever thought that a high profile rb would solve the running game was sadly mistaken. If it was Green, there's just no reason to debate his ability anyway. I'm guessing the signing was more PR related to put butt's in the new seats but I still haven't heard anything about DG asking to sign "player X" and having been denied.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I'm guessing the signing was more PR related to put butt's in the new seats but I still haven't heard anything about DG asking to sign "player X" and having been denied.

you don't remember when Green was aked about Deion Branch him making comments that the Seahawks do what it to takes to get their coach the players he needs, or something to that effect? That was a thinly (or not so thinly) veiled slap at ownership IMO.

i'm sure once he's canned, we'll hear more about this. he didn't exactly go gentle into that goodnight the last time he was fired. i suspect he won't this time either.

 

[Zeno]

Same old garbage from Mitch. I am not convinced that Green is the man for the job but how many times can Mitch put together some long winded post on that subject.

I don't know why I even bother reading any of his posts. Its almost as if he is trying to say "hey look how smart I am"..when all it draws is a collective yawn.

It just really amounts to another couple of wasted minutes.

 

[az1965]

Boy are you a HUGE hypocrite! You sit there and tell Mitch "try and write something useful" telling him what to say. All I do is suggest you should ignore him or not read him at all or even try to counter what he says with something constructive. Yet you say dont tell you what to say. Pot meet kettle. :roll:

Hmm... I think it was you first who said don't tell Mitch what to say and yet you were telling me what not to say. I see a BIGGER hypocrite.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Mitch ought to just cut and paste one of his many anti-Green rants and post it about twice a week. That way he could save is fingers from the abuse of typing the same thing over and over. I think what i've gotten from his ad nauseum rants is that he's not a Dennis Green fan.

 

[kerouac9]

As for Kendall, he was named the Pro Bowl the year before the Cardinals signed him as a free agent.

Sorry, Mitch. This is flat out not true. 1998 Pro Bowl Roster -- 1999 Pro Bowl Roster -- 2000 Pro Bowl Roster. You'll be hard pressed to find Pete Kendall's name on any of these.

If you can find one source that says that Kendall was named to a Pro Bowl team, I'd like to see it.