Theory on Murray

[CardLogic]

I guess what I'm trying to say (or ask, really) is if the next Payton Manning (college QB who was as good as PM) were in this upcoming draft, would you trade KM and go that route?

LOL! That's not asking much.

Only one of the two best QB's in the last 40 years! There is probably only 2, maybe 3 teams max, that wouldn't trade their current QB for "the next Peyton Manning!" One of those teams is NOT the Cardinals.

 

[Proximo]

Kliffy is working with USC offense and QBs. Stay away.

He also worked with Mahomes and that worked out just fine.

 

[Stout]

Kliffy is working with USC offense and QBs. Stay away.

Or, if he does well despite Kliffy, do we consider that super success?

 

[RON_IN_OC]

Or, if he does well despite Kliffy, do we consider that super success?

I want to see Williams develop a complete game...take check downs, play action, etc. The spectacular jail break plays are awesome, but we already know that's not enough in the NFL. I'm not too sure any defense he plays against this year will give him adversity to handle, unless USC makes the college playoff.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

I want to see Williams develop a complete game...take check downs, play action, etc. The spectacular jail break plays are awesome, but we already know that's not enough in the NFL. I'm not too sure any defense he plays against this year will give him adversity to handle, unless USC makes the college playoff.

I would wager USC won't be in the playoff this year.. not because of Williams, but look how many points San Jose State scored against that USC defense.

What's Michigan or Ohio State going to do to them?

Always been Riley's Achilles heel.

 

[CardNots]

I want to see Williams develop a complete game...take check downs, play action, etc. The spectacular jail break plays are awesome, but we already know that's not enough in the NFL. I'm not too sure any defense he plays against this year will give him adversity to handle, unless USC makes the college playoff.

He is too short for my liking regardless of his skill set.

 

[RON_IN_OC]

He is too short for my liking regardless of his skill set.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I don't want him, but if the team feels compelled I want to see more from him.

 

[Garthshort]

I agree. I tore my ACL last May, had the replacement surgery in June, was back to doing crossfit 4 months later in October and playing ice hockey in January. And I'm playing baseball this summer and catching.

Not comparing myself to a world class athlete. Just saying that I did that and I'm 45, so anything is possible.

Well I'm not doubting you, but concerned that you're a catcher. In old time baseball, when catchers were putting on their catching equipment announcers said that they were donning the tools of ignorance. Mostly heard Vince Scully saying that.

 

[Garthshort]

LOL! That's not asking much.

Only one of the two best QB's in the last 40 years! There is probably only 2, maybe 3 teams max, that wouldn't trade their current QB for "the next Peyton Manning!" One of those teams is NOT the Cardinals.

So, if one is NOT the Cardinals, are you saying that the other team IS the Cardinals?

 

[Vacard]

Here are Tagovaloa stats from 2019

Year G Cmp Att Pct Yds Y/A AY/A TD Int Rat

*2019 9 180 252 71.4 2840 11.3 13.4 33 3 206.9

Jalen Hurts from that same year

Year G Cmp Att Pct Yds Y/A AY/A TD Int Rat

*2019 14 237 340 69.7 3851 11.3 12.2 32 8 191.2


And stinky Joe Burrow from 2019:

*2019 15 402 527 76.3 5671 10.8 12.5 60 6 202.0



So yes Gimpy a little pedestrian compared to some of the guys who have come out recently.

But by all means, let's hit the eject button on Murray, in favor of big Drake Maye. Sounds like a fool proof plan. I'm sure Maye will be 2x as good as Murray.

Herbert:

*2019	Oregon	Pac-12	SR	QB	14	286	428	66.8	3471	8.1	9.0	32	6	156.8

 

[Crimson Warrior]

Herbert:

*2019	Oregon	Pac-12	SR	QB	14	286	428	66.8	3471	8.1	9.0	32	6	156.8

Heberts stats from last year....

477

699

4,739

68.2

6.8

25

10

55

38

93.2

58.2

They're... pretty good?

 

[oaken1]

Here are Tagovaloa stats from 2019

Year G Cmp Att Pct Yds Y/A AY/A TD Int Rat

*2019 9 180 252 71.4 2840 11.3 13.4 33 3 206.9

Jalen Hurts from that same year

Year G Cmp Att Pct Yds Y/A AY/A TD Int Rat

*2019 14 237 340 69.7 3851 11.3 12.2 32 8 191.2


And stinky Joe Burrow from 2019:

*2019 15 402 527 76.3 5671 10.8 12.5 60 6 202.0



So yes Gimpy a little pedestrian compared to some of the guys who have come out recently.

But by all means, let's hit the eject button on Murray, in favor of big Drake Maye. Sounds like a fool proof plan. I'm sure Maye will be 2x as good as Murray.

Surrounding cast plays a big part in those numbers....

 

[DaHilg]

The thing about Kyler regression is erosion of the deep ball. He went from one of the best deep ball passer to one of the worst. I'd say based on his career it might be more of outlier. However, his game is heavily dependent on him being a great deep ball passer.

Here's the concern.

Kyler posted a 96? passer rating last year in games where he has DeAndre Hopkins. I believe the last two seasons his passer rating was anywhere from 100 to 102 with Hopkins on the field.

Cardinals cut him.

So how do we improve on Kyler's deep passing? While I do believe the run action (stuff I've been calling for years) gets involved in the offense it still matters who is he throwing to?

Kyler only played ONE game with Hopkins and Hollywood together. Hollywood has his injury issues.
Rondale Moore and Dortch are 5'7. Michael Wilson is impressive in camp but is he really a deep ball threat?

Kyler is going to have really alter his game. It's also with a hope and a prayer that Petzing is the next big offensive mind and not someone who gets fired after 2024.

I think the organization is more on a wait and see approach with Kyler. If he handles this tough situation good then he'll be back next year. If he looks like a poor fit for the offense they'll pivot. However, at least based on preseason they havent made it easier. Which calls into question just how in a rush Kyler wants to get on the field. Cause he can blame his bad year on Kliff and Keim. No one is giving him that benefit of the doubt if it turns into 2 years.

Answer; offensive schemes can do wonders. Go look at 2 very inaccurate QBs in Lamar and Hurts. Now look at what happened once you schemed around the actual throws those guys could make. Both have great Olines though as well…. Kyler is an accurate QB. Will be curious what happens with him in an NFL schemed offense. Oline still VERY questionable but I do feel it has improved this off-season. Also, feel as if whoever we shave back there won’t just be a sitting duck, standing in shotgun… every single play.

 

[Vacard]

U

Heberts stats from last year....

477

699

4,739

68.2

6.8

25

10

55

38

93.2

58.2

They're... pretty good?

we comparing college stats yes??

I put Hebert’s stats to show they are just as “pedestrian” as the Maye’s yet Herbert is a superstar qb in this league. Am I saying he’ll be Better then the qb’s aforementioned, no, but those stats don’t tell the whole story.

With that being said I have no idea why you even posted Herbert’s pro-stats.

 

[SoonerLou]

Answer; offensive schemes can do wonders. Go look at 2 very inaccurate QBs in Lamar and Hurts. Now look at what happened once you schemed around the actual throws those guys could make. Both have great Olines though as well…. Kyler is an accurate QB. Will be curious what happens with him in an NFL schemed offense. Oline still VERY questionable but I do feel it has improved this off-season. Also, feel as if whoever we shave back there won’t just be a sitting duck, standing in shotgun… every single play.

I hear you and that was/is my hope as well.

However, Petzing really needs to be a Shane Steichen level OC. Gannon's mentioned his influence being what Philly has done but Im seeing Petzing doing very Cleveland like things. Maybe its cause there is no Kyler yet.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

He also worked with Mahomes and that worked out just fine.

True, but Charlie Weis was a good OC when he had Brady as his QB too.

 

[K1Day1]

I still can‘t believe that Keim AND BIDWILL extended Murray’s contract. It really is amazing that Murray was able to pressure them by removing all pics of him with Cardinals gear on from his social media and staying in Texas during the offseason. Keim AND BIDWILL folded at the first sign of pressure

I think it had more to do with making it to the pro bowl 2 times more than just removing pics. Take a team like the Giants who seemed to be convinced Daniel Jones is a great QB now and how many times has he been voted to the probowl?
In today's NFL. The Cardinals will have NO problem trading a 2 time pro bowl QB and to be honest. It would be such a Cardinals, Bidwill thing to do that I can actually see them trading him sometime soon. Heard some of the talking heads say if Murray plays good when he comes back then that ups his trade value. Might be just me but that would be like the Dolphins of old saying; " Hey Marino is playing good right now. Let's hurray up and trade him SMH ". ( And NO I not comparing Murray to Marino. Just comparing the circumstances and some talking heads twisted logic ).

 

[speedy]

No offense, but comparing your recovery to a world class athlete receiving the best medical care in the world isn’t really a comparison. Look at Burrow’s recovery, not the athlete Kyler is. Look at the athletic freak Adrian Peterson’s recovery in what I believe was 9 months to become the rushing champ that same year. He will be back this season I’d wager within the first half of the season. Although with the colossal tank - I do wonder if somehow he gets traded this season.

Ok. We’ll see.

I’ll keep this thread in mind for a future bump.

 

[Stout]

I hear you and that was/is my hope as well.

However, Petzing really needs to be a Shane Steichen level OC. Gannon's mentioned his influence being what Philly has done but Im seeing Petzing doing very Cleveland like things. Maybe its cause there is no Kyler yet.

Where the idea that it was all Kliffy that caused Kyler's problems crumbles is that Kyler was very good in Kliffy's offense...until he wasn't. So it can't be Kyler was great despite Kliffy but then he sucked because of Kliffy. The offense and coaching absolutely played a part, but Kyler regressed significantly on his own as well. That's nailed on.

 

[DaHilg]

Where the idea that it was all Kliffy that caused Kyler's problems crumbles is that Kyler was very good in Kliffy's offense...until he wasn't. So it can't be Kyler was great despite Kliffy but then he sucked because of Kliffy. The offense and coaching absolutely played a part, but Kyler regressed significantly on his own as well. That's nailed on.

I think our questions will be answered either way in a new offense. I am a believer that what all the analysts and even some players came out and said - the offense became more and more predictable as time went on. DBs could press bc they knew the same players were going to line up in the same spot and run 1 of 3 routes. They also knew it was a swinging gate of an offensive line so there wouldn’t be time to throw much of a deep ball.. let alone an accurate one. Hard to improve if the defense can predict what you are doing more and more as time goes on..

Now if Kyler sucks in a changed offense? We will 100% know he was equally the problem.

I am very curious to find out. I don’t know the answers. I do know he has all the skills in the world to be great. We will see.

 

[Stout]

I think our questions will be answered either way in a new offense. I am a believer that what all the analysts and even some players came out and said - the offense became more and more predictable as time went on. DBs could press bc they knew the same players were going to line up in the same spot and run 1 of 3 routes. They also knew it was a swinging gate of an offensive line so there wouldn’t be time to throw much of a deep ball.. let alone an accurate one. Hard to improve if the defense can predict what you are doing more and more as time goes on..

Now if Kyler sucks in a changed offense? We will 100% know he was equally the problem.

I am very curious to find out. I don’t know the answers. I do know he has all the skills in the world to be great. We will see.

Solid post. It does seem as if Kyler has matured in the offseason. He's at least saying and doing all the right things. I'm excited to see if it translates to the field.

 

[Sparky16]

Here are Tagovaloa stats from 2019

Year G Cmp Att Pct Yds Y/A AY/A TD Int Rat

*2019 9 180 252 71.4 2840 11.3 13.4 33 3 206.9

Jalen Hurts from that same year

Year G Cmp Att Pct Yds Y/A AY/A TD Int Rat

*2019 14 237 340 69.7 3851 11.3 12.2 32 8 191.2


And stinky Joe Burrow from 2019:

*2019 15 402 527 76.3 5671 10.8 12.5 60 6 202.0



So yes Gimpy a little pedestrian compared to some of the guys who have come out recently.

But by all means, let's hit the eject button on Murray, in favor of big Drake Maye. Sounds like a fool proof plan. I'm sure Maye will be 2x as good as Murray.

He was a Redshirt Frosh playing for the 1st time.... yo compared him with QBs playing behind O-lines and especially WRs that are littered on NFL rosters today. 6'4 and 240 and a cannon arm and no fear sounds a lot better than 5'10 210 playing scared

 

[Sparky16]

"he did well behind a bad oline" is not compelling enough to burn the #1 pick in the draft on him Cardpa.

this is enough

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[SoonerLou]

Where the idea that it was all Kliffy that caused Kyler's problems crumbles is that Kyler was very good in Kliffy's offense...until he wasn't. So it can't be Kyler was great despite Kliffy but then he sucked because of Kliffy. The offense and coaching absolutely played a part, but Kyler regressed significantly on his own as well. That's nailed on.

Honestly I thought it was just his deep ball sucked/regressed.

The overall issue is that Kyler never really improved. So when his superpower suddenly becomes a liability then it can look awful. Its like Klay Thompson when he suddenly cant make 3s anymore.

With a more NFL centric offense the hope is that he evolves his game and hope like heck the loss of a deep ball was just an outlier.

I think our questions will be answered either way in a new offense. I am a believer that what all the analysts and even some players came out and said - the offense became more and more predictable as time went on. DBs could press bc they knew the same players were going to line up in the same spot and run 1 of 3 routes. They also knew it was a swinging gate of an offensive line so there wouldn’t be time to throw much of a deep ball.. let alone an accurate one. Hard to improve if the defense can predict what you are doing more and more as time goes on..

Now if Kyler sucks in a changed offense? We will 100% know he was equally the problem.

I am very curious to find out. I don’t know the answers. I do know he has all the skills in the world to be great. We will see.

What we'll really find out is if he's a potentially really good QB or not.

As stated even despite his issues last year he still was a 96 passer rating QB with Hopkins on the field.

No #1 wr and now a first time OC. All Im saying is this isnt a make Kyler comfortable to find out if he's the guy situation. This will be his worst WR core since he's been a pro and will still dont know about Petzing yet. I was and still a fan after I read up on him.

However, I'll admit watching the ease in which new offensive coordinators for the Ravens and Commanders have their offenses looking smooth. And Im talking with backups everywhere. Eric Bienemy and Monken are experienced OCs and seem to have their guys up to speed (so far). Ours looked rather clunky in the preseason tbh.

If Kyler's really good it wont matter. If he's just a guy then it wont go well if Drew is just an average OC.

 

[Snakester]

I think Murray plays this year for a couple reasons. One this coaching staff needs to know what they have in him to make a decision whether to draft Drake Maye next year or not. Also Murray needs to show this staff that he is the man and should be kept. I think Murray misses maybe a month. If he doesn’t come back then I can see the Cards trying out Tune for the year to see what they have in him.