Why is Shawn Marion not in the Ring of Honor?

[BC867]

Shawn Marion made a decision that hurt our Suns.

He had the right to make that decision.

And Suns fans have a right to be angry.

It is what it is!

 

[Cheesebeef]

here's where I sit with Marion.

Do I hate that he always went Tortilla against the Spurs in the playoffs? Yes.

Do I hate that he nixed the kKG Trade? Yes.

Does he deserve the ROH? Yes. I mean, Thunder Dan became Blunder Dan in the back to back Houston series debacles and if he's in there, Marion should be as well.

My biggest problem with Marion wasn't any of his big game playoff no-shows or really even nixing the KG trade. My issue really that he could have been SO MUCH BETTER and after his third year in the league. I truly believed he was on his way to being a superstar. He averaged 19/10 and was still so raw and doing that all as a premiere garbage man. He was 23 years old, plenty of time to still add to his game. The problem was... he stayed the exact same player his third year in the league for the rest of his career and I just blame that on laziness. There was never a summer where we heard he focused all his attention on dribbling... or passing... and then saw this new wrinkle to his game. He never developed ANY kind of handles, or post up game AT ALL. That guy, with that athleticism and length... he could have been a superstar if he ever just learned how to dribble and then he would have been worth the MAX deal and love he so desperately craved but never deserved.

 

[AzStevenCal]

here's where I sit with Marion.

Do I hate that he always went Tortilla against the Spurs in the playoffs? Yes.

Do I hate that he nixed the kKG Trade? Yes.

Does he deserve the ROH? Yes. I mean, Thunder Dan became Blunder Dan in the back to back Houston series debacles and if he's in there, Marion should be as well.

My biggest problem with Marion wasn't any of his big game playoff no-shows or really even nixing the KG trade. My issue really that he could have been SO MUCH BETTER and after his third year in the league. I truly believed he was on his way to being a superstar. He averaged 19/10 and was still so raw and doing that all as a premiere garbage man. He was 23 years old, plenty of time to still add to his game. The problem was... he stayed the exact same player his third year in the league for the rest of his career and I just blame that on laziness. There was never a summer where we heard he focused all his attention on dribbling... or passing... and then saw this new wrinkle to his game. He never developed ANY kind of handles, or post up game AT ALL. That guy, with that athleticism and length... he could have been a superstar if he ever just learned how to dribble and then he would have been worth the MAX deal and love he so desperately craved but never deserved.

I mostly agree with all this but I think the Starks under-cutting incident in Utah his 2nd or 3rd year had a lot to do with why his game didn't seem to improve. IMO he just wasn't the same after that; he played softer, settled for long jumpers far more often and was more cautious when he left his feet. He was still very good but I thought he was on his way to becoming a really special player until that cheap shot.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I mostly agree with all this but I think the Starks under-cutting incident in Utah his 2nd or 3rd year had a lot to do with why his game didn't seem to improve. IMO he just wasn't the same after that; he played softer, settled for long jumpers far more often and was more cautious when he left his feet. He was still very good but I thought he was on his way to becoming a really special player until that cheap shot.

well, if that really is true, it goes hand in hand with my second biggest issue with Marion was... dude was beyond mentally weak. There's a lot of guys who take big cheap shots, especially high fliers when they first hit the league. but to have the evolution of his game just completely stop because of that one play just sucks, for lack of a better description. and the above still doesn't really speak to why he never developed any kind of handles at all or some kind of post game, especially when the Spurs year after year kept putting Tony Parker on him because they knew he would never taken advantage of that matchup.

 

[AzStevenCal]

well, if that really is true, it goes hand in hand with my second biggest issue with Marion was... dude was beyond mentally weak. There's a lot of guys who take big cheap shots, especially high fliers when they first hit the league. but to have the evolution of his game just completely stop because of that one play just sucks, for lack of a better description. and the above still doesn't really speak to why he never developed any kind of handles at all or some kind of post game, especially when the Spurs year after year kept putting Tony Parker on him because they knew he would never taken advantage of that matchup.

Without a doubt, I'd put him even below Dice in that regard. But if you didn't see that move by Starks you should check it out - if you can find it. Marion was killing them, absolutely unstoppable, until Sloan called a timeout to ream out the Jazz for allowing us to dominate at the rim and Starks immediately responded by walking under an airborne Marion. And it was not at all a routine cheap shot, it was a very dangerous move. The league eventually ruled that it wasn't intentional but IMO that ruling was the single biggest screw job any team I've rooted for had to face, even above the Stat/Diaw suspension.

If you ever get to see it: Starks lets Marion go to the rim, you can see him watching Shawn and when Marion reaches near his peak, Starks turns away from the play yet quickly walks backward so that Marion has to come down on Starks before falling to the ground off-balanced. Prior to that play, Marion was feasting in the key with tremendous slam dunk after slam dunk and a couple of unopposed monster put-backs. And like I said, following that play, he was never quite the same force IMO.

 

[GatorAZ]

Without a doubt, I'd put him even below Dice in that regard. But if you didn't see that move by Starks you should check it out - if you can find it. Marion was killing them, absolutely unstoppable, until Sloan called a timeout to ream out the Jazz for allowing us to dominate at the rim and Starks immediately responded by walking under an airborne Marion. And it was not at all a routine cheap shot, it was a very dangerous move. The league eventually ruled that it wasn't intentional but IMO that ruling was the single biggest screw job any team I've rooted for had to face, even above the Stat/Diaw suspension.

If you ever get to see it: Starks lets Marion go to the rim, you can see him watching Shawn and when Marion reaches near his peak, Starks turns away from the play yet quickly walks backward so that Marion has to come down on Starks before falling to the ground off-balanced. Prior to that play, Marion was feasting in the key with tremendous slam dunk after slam dunk and a couple of unopposed monster put-backs. And like I said, following that play, he was never quite the same force IMO.

It’s like the video has been blackballed from the internet. I’ll have to do some digging.

IIRC that game was nationally televised and Peter Vecsey went off on Starks.

 

[Phrazbit]

Without a doubt, I'd put him even below Dice in that regard. But if you didn't see that move by Starks you should check it out - if you can find it. Marion was killing them, absolutely unstoppable, until Sloan called a timeout to ream out the Jazz for allowing us to dominate at the rim and Starks immediately responded by walking under an airborne Marion. And it was not at all a routine cheap shot, it was a very dangerous move. The league eventually ruled that it wasn't intentional but IMO that ruling was the single biggest screw job any team I've rooted for had to face, even above the Stat/Diaw suspension.

If you ever get to see it: Starks lets Marion go to the rim, you can see him watching Shawn and when Marion reaches near his peak, Starks turns away from the play yet quickly walks backward so that Marion has to come down on Starks before falling to the ground off-balanced. Prior to that play, Marion was feasting in the key with tremendous slam dunk after slam dunk and a couple of unopposed monster put-backs. And like I said, following that play, he was never quite the same force IMO.

It’s like the video has been blackballed from the internet. I’ll have to do some digging.

IIRC that game was nationally televised and Peter Vecsey went off on Starks.

Yeah, it was gruesome. I've never seen someone's head bounce like that. If that happened in today's league Starks would get a 30 game suspension and Marion would probably miss half a season in concussion protocol.

I already disliked Starks before that play and afterwards he went on my list of most despised players. Sloan never took heat for how dirty his teams played, Malone was one of the dirtiest guys of his generation. Was it Elliot Perry who nearly got decapitated by Malone?

 

[Mainstreet]

I searched for the video where John Starks undercut Shawn Marion but I couldn't find it either. It must be long gone.

The best I could find was the link to the article by Peter Vecsey

https://nypost.com/2001/02/27/starks-undercut-was-disgraceful/

 

[AzStevenCal]

I searched for the video where John Starks undercut Shawn Marion but I couldn't find it either. It must be long gone.

The best I could find was the link to the article by Peter Vecsey

https://nypost.com/2001/02/27/starks-undercut-was-disgraceful/

The thing is, though, it used to be out there (on YouTube). The quality wasn't quite as good as my own copy which I deleted more than 15 years ago but it was good enough to see just how pre-meditated Stark's move was.

 

[Mainstreet]

The thing is, though, it used to be out there (on YouTube). The quality wasn't quite as good as my own copy which I deleted more than 15 years ago but it was good enough to see just how pre-meditated Stark's move was.

I thought it had to be out there as well so I tried to find use back door entrances but still no luck.

The other best place to check may be on the Suns forum archives. I'm guessing someone had to post the video.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

I searched for the video where John Starks undercut Shawn Marion but I couldn't find it either. It must be long gone.

The best I could find was the link to the article by Peter Vecsey

https://nypost.com/2001/02/27/starks-undercut-was-disgraceful/

I remembered this as well...

"Pull it against the Suns and nobody so much as flinches in retribution. Not one of Marion’s teammates. Not the fourth assistant. Not the weight and fitness guy. Not one of Jerry Colangelo’s friends from his old neighborhood in Chicago.

Inconceivable!

Not a threat from the Suns. Not an evil eye. Not a disparaging word toward Starks. Nobody said nothin’, nobody did nathan.

Inconceivable!"

Soft.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I remembered this as well...

"Pull it against the Suns and nobody so much as flinches in retribution. Not one of Marion’s teammates. Not the fourth assistant. Not the weight and fitness guy. Not one of Jerry Colangelo’s friends from his old neighborhood in Chicago.

Inconceivable!

Not a threat from the Suns. Not an evil eye. Not a disparaging word toward Starks. Nobody said nothin’, nobody did nathan.

Inconceivable!"

Soft.

I know it seems that way but I think you had to be somewhat removed from the play to actually realize what happened. Sure, they could see that Starks was underneath him when he fell but if you weren't watching John prior to that it would just look like a typical play in the key. That's why the refs missed it too, not because they were incompetent or in Utah's pocket. And even the bench missed it because they were understandably focusing on the ball and Marion. I watched it live and I had no idea how it went down until I backed up my TIVO and watched it again. And then, again and again and again.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Without a doubt, I'd put him even below Dice in that regard. But if you didn't see that move by Starks you should check it out - if you can find it. Marion was killing them, absolutely unstoppable, until Sloan called a timeout to ream out the Jazz for allowing us to dominate at the rim and Starks immediately responded by walking under an airborne Marion. And it was not at all a routine cheap shot, it was a very dangerous move. The league eventually ruled that it wasn't intentional but IMO that ruling was the single biggest screw job any team I've rooted for had to face, even above the Stat/Diaw suspension.

If you ever get to see it: Starks lets Marion go to the rim, you can see him watching Shawn and when Marion reaches near his peak, Starks turns away from the play yet quickly walks backward so that Marion has to come down on Starks before falling to the ground off-balanced. Prior to that play, Marion was feasting in the key with tremendous slam dunk after slam dunk and a couple of unopposed monster put-backs. And like I said, following that play, he was never quite the same force IMO.

I remember the play clearly Steve... just as I do Danny Fortson's cheap shot on Zarko that seemingly changed that kid's career from promising youngin' to completely worthless. Starks' undercut was a a complete BS cheap shot. Still doesn't explain away why Marion never decided to upgrade his game past that point, which made him lazy and mentally weak.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

I remember the play clearly Steve... just as I do Danny Fortson's cheap shot on Zarko that seemingly changed that kid's career from promising youngin' to completely worthless. Starks' undercut was a a complete BS cheap shot. Still doesn't explain away why Marion never decided to upgrade his game past that point, which made him lazy and mentally weak.

Like you, I remember both plays vividly, and Vescey's article struck me precisely because teams would punk the Suns, and they would take it.

Regarding Marion...maybe he lacked the requisite coordination to become a more effective shooter/dribbler? Players not developing skills along the way could be for any number of reasons, and to just ascribe it to laziness, is kinda lazy!

 

[Cheesebeef]

Like you, I remember both plays vividly, and Vescey's article struck me precisely because teams would punk the Suns, and they would take it.

Regarding Marion...maybe he lacked the requisite coordination to become a more effective shooter/dribbler? Players not developing skills along the way could be for any number of reasons, and to just ascribe it to laziness, is kinda lazy!

sorry. I just don't buy this. he could never add a post-game, either? he literally never got better from his third year in the league, at 23 to the day his career ended. that's laziness for a guy with that kind of natural athleticism, IMO.

 

[Superbone]

Snubbed: The Hall of Fame case for Shawn Marion

https://theathletic.com/1803887/

 

[AzStevenCal]

Snubbed: The Hall of Fame case for Shawn Marion

https://theathletic.com/1803887/

Can you summarize the article for us?

 

[Cheesebeef]

Snubbed: The Hall of Fame case for Shawn Marion

https://theathletic.com/1803887/

no. that's ridiculous and just no. 3rd bananas who routinely disappeared in the biggest stretches in the playoffs and never helped their teams win a title when they were that 3rd banana... or even get to a Finals... don't get in the HOF. his claim to fame was being a 2 time 3rd Team All-Pro and being on fumes winning a title as a 9th man on the Mavs. That doesn't get you in the Hall. It doesn't even get you close.

 

[Superbone]

Can you summarize the article for us?

I think some highlights are allowed:

“I left a great imprint on the game and I’m at peace,” Marion said in a recent interview with The Athletic.

Marion has one of the more complex arguments for the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame. He wasn’t an elite scorer. He never made an All-Defensive team (more on that later). And his best moments came as either the second- or third-best member of one of the league’s more fascinating ring-less flirtations. When he finally captured that title, Marion was part of a complementary ensemble cast that helped Dirk Nowitzki shed nearly a decade of unfair and inaccurate criticisms of his heart and competitiveness.

Dallas Mavericks Coach Rick Carlisle once called Marion “one of the most underrated players in history.” And that’s not just hyperbole. His career was played in the shadows of other shinier objects — from Jason Kidd to Stephon Marbury to Amaré Stoudemire and Steve Nash in Phoenix, to Nowitzki in Dallas. But those who played alongside him, and especially those who crunched numbers, recognized what Marion did to accentuate and uplift the talent around him.

Need a slender 6-foot-7 perimeter defender with the gumption to guard four, perhaps five, positions in the same game? A floor runner who can catch lobs with rapid reflexes and step out to hit the occasional 3-pointer? An undersized yet tenacious shot blocker and steal collector? Marion could scratch off those demands and find whatever items on the box sheet that needed filling from game to game.

Basketball-Reference’s Hall of Fame calculator has Marion’s chances of reaching Springfield at 75.6 percent, in the same grouping as Hall of Famers Joe Dumars, Dennis Rodman and Gail Goodrich. Among eligible NBA players who haven’t received a Hall call, Marion’s probability percentage ranks fifth behind Chris Bosh (99.5), Larry Foust (94.2), Chauncey Billups (84.4) and Tim Hardaway (79.2).

Marion is the only player in NBA history with at least 17,000 points, 10,000 rebounds, 1,500 steals, 1,000 blocks and 500 three-pointers in his career. He is also one of just two to finish with career averages of at least 15 points, 8.5 rebounds, 1.5 steals and one block. The other? Hakeem Olajuwon.

And of course, lot's of Marion quotes of him feeling snubbed.

 

[Mainstreet]

In the article I support Marion when he says: "The numbers don't lie."

https://theathletic.com/1803887/

 

[ASUCHRIS]

sorry. I just don't buy this. he could never add a post-game, either? he literally never got better from his third year in the league, at 23 to the day his career ended. that's laziness for a guy with that kind of natural athleticism, IMO.

Add a post game? Who the hell was Marion going to back down? There are many fair criticisms of Marion, but not adding a post game seems like an odd angle.

Marion was mostly a disappointment in the playoffs, but it's hard for me to reconcile the way games were played/refereed in the post season vs. the regular season. You play 82 games under one set of rules, then allow all sorts of contact that fundamentally changed the game.

For a guy that thrived in transition and run and gun, a slow half court game was a poor fit for the Matrix. Allowing other teams to manhandle him didn't help either.

 

[Chaplin]

Add a post game? Who the hell was Marion going to back down? There are many fair criticisms of Marion, but not adding a post game seems like an odd angle.

Marion was mostly a disappointment in the playoffs, but it's hard for me to reconcile the way games were played/refereed in the post season vs. the regular season. You play 82 games under one set of rules, then allow all sorts of contact that fundamentally changed the game.

For a guy that thrived in transition and run and gun, a slow half court game was a poor fit for the Matrix. Allowing other teams to manhandle him didn't help either.

But then wouldn’t that actually support Cheese’s assertion that he should have at least tried to expand his game so he wouldn’t be a liability in the half court? He was spoiled by 7 Seconds or Less. Problem was, he thought it was ONLY 7 Seconds or Less. Luckily his skills as a defender masked his weakness in the half court.

 

[Mainstreet]

The discussion shouldn't be whether Shawn Marion deserves to be in the Suns Ring of Honor but whether he deserves to be in the Hall of Fame.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Add a post game? Who the hell was Marion going to back down? There are many fair criticisms of Marion, but not adding a post game seems like an odd angle.

how about Tony Parker every damn season when they would stick him on him because they knew Marion would be a complete and utter non-factor. I talked about this repeatedly during those series that we would have a massive size mismatch and never could take adverting of it because Marion never did anything to improve his offensive game.

Marion was mostly a disappointment in the playoffs, but it's hard for me to reconcile the way games were played/refereed in the post season vs. the regular season. You play 82 games under one set of rules, then allow all sorts of contact that fundamentally changed the game.

For a guy that thrived in transition and run and gun, a slow half court game was a poor fit for the Matrix. Allowing other teams to manhandle him didn't help either.

who the heck was manhandling him? Tony Parker in the playoffs? Jason Terry? No one manhandled him in the playoffs. Reality was he scored most of his points on transition and elite garbage man put backs and cuts. The fact that was the ONLY thing he could do meant teams like the Spurs could completely neutralize him and basically have us playing 4 on 5 on offense.

 

[Cheesebeef]

The discussion shouldn't be whether Shawn Marion deserves to be in the Suns Ring of Honor but whether he deserves to be in the Hall of Fame.

that is lunacy. he doesn't deserve to be anywhere close to the Hall Of Fame.