What is the plan?

[taz02]

Until we know what we have, and that takes time for maturity and development, we really have no idea what we need to do. Unless we change our goals. If all we care about is to no longer be an embarrassment, the solution is simple. Trade Ayton, Booker, Jackson, Oubre and a few others for solid veterans. Then, replace Koko with a coach like the one in Brooklyn and live with 35 to 40 win seasons until we can luck into a Giannis-like star with a middling pick.

But Booker is going nowhere and I see no problem with spending this season trying to develop the players we believe in and jettisoning the ones we don't. But I don't mean the ones us fans believe or don't believe in, I mean the people that work with these guys every day. If we get lucky with the lottery, we take Zion and trade a few future picks and Warren for a quality starting point guard. I'm not sure who that will be but some team will likely go back to the drawing board before much longer and hopefully they'll have a PG we want.

If we don't get lucky, then we draft a PG or trade it and whatever it takes to fill that position. Regardless, time (AKA patience) has to be the watchword of the day, trying to fix this mess right away should not be our priority. The cost is too high IMO.

Sorry but I disagree. We may be forced to be patient due to having no choice but patience and luck should not be the plan at this stage.

I believe that continued losing will cause irreparable damage if it hasn't already. Damage to the players confidence in the coach, Booker's increasing frustration and Aytons confidence.

I think the team is in need of a drastic move. You can't be patient when have back to back seasons representing two of the three worst records in team history.

 

[Mainstreet]

We have the second longest drought because for several years we DID NOT do what we are doing now. Youth is the culprit the past 3 seasons or so, that's it - the rest is on the shoulders of broken down old guys and bad free agent veteran signings by Sarver and company.

The Suns have been doing what they are doing now at least since the 2016 draft and the 2013 draft if we want to go there. When the Suns weren't drafting early they selected Warren, Bogdon and Booker.

As I view it, the Suns losing has more to do with weak drafting and managerial decisions than getting the earliest picks.

The Suns more recent drafts went something like this:

In 2013 the Suns drafted #5 and came up short with Len although he is still in the NBA. This was a weak draft but nevertheless the Suns had an early pick.

In 2014 the Suns drafted Warren at #14 and Bogdon at #27. This was a very good draft except they traded the rights of Bogdon away.

In 2015 they drafted Booker at #13. It speaks for itself. This was a good draft.

Then in 2016 the Suns drafted Bender at #4 and traded Bogdon for the 8th pick to get Chriss. Bad draft.

In 2017 they drafted Jackson at #4. The jury is still out. However more was expected of Jackson.

In 2018 the Suns drafted Ayton at #1 and traded for Bridges who was drafted #10. The Suns are resting their future on this draft.

Now in 2019 the Suns are lined up for another top draft pick if they don't trade it.

The point is the Suns have played poorly since the 2016 season... earlier if we want to include the 2013 season. They should have three good drafts under their belt instead of one from the 2016 draft forward.

The Suns do not need to do more losing unless they want to adopt a modified Hinkie method.

 

[SirStefan32]

Thought this was an interesting take on the whole "rebuild" thing as well as player development.
https://www.brightsideofthesun.com/...-rebirth-depends-in-season-player-development

 

[AzStevenCal]

Sorry but I disagree. We may be forced to be patient due to having no choice but patience and luck should not be the plan at this stage.

I believe that continued losing will cause irreparable damage if it hasn't already. Damage to the players confidence in the coach, Booker's increasing frustration and Aytons confidence.

I think the team is in need of a drastic move. You can't be patient when have back to back seasons representing two of the three worst records in team history.

You mean like Philly did a few years ago when they tanked and won 19, 18, 10 and 28 games before finally starting to come together? They've been winning more than two thirds of their games since then. Where's this irreparable damage you and several others keep talking about?

You seem to be missing the fact that this was by design. We (the Suns) chose to play the tanking game and these are the consequences. We can throw away part of our future to salvage our present but IMO that dooms us to mediocrity. I feel like vomiting any time someone suggests we should do something drastic so we can win now. Making a drastic move isn't a solution and if it were, every loser team would be doing it. You win at an elite level ONLY with stars, we've drafted potential stars and now we have to wait for them to approach their prime and hopefully approach their potential.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Thought this was an interesting take on the whole "rebuild" thing as well as player development.
https://www.brightsideofthesun.com/...-rebirth-depends-in-season-player-development

I'm surprised you found it interesting. IMO Dave King is an idiot and always has been. And once again he talks about players such as Goodwin and Ulis as part of our youth movement through draft picks? We didn't tank for second round picks or even for the number 4 pick. It's just nonsense to paint it as 3 separate rebuilds under McD.

Due to financial pressures, we initially tried to rebuild without actually tanking. When that fell apart and the news started leaking out about the huge TV contract (relieving the financial pressures), Sarver finally agreed to a full rebuild using a similar approach as Hinkie. The biggest mistake we've made since then (other than our horrible 2016 draft decisions) is in acting like the rebuild was complete after we selected Ayton and then announcing that we were abandoning our timeline. You follow Hinkie down this road until you get a Lebron or two, not when you get a bunch of 4's and 5's.

In truth, we don't have the patience for this kind of rebuild, few franchises do. So we shouldn't have gone down this road in the first place. But abandoning it now is an even worse decision than starting it in the first place IMO. And when we draft Zion or Morant or whoever at the end of this season, I imagine King will be calling it our 4th rebuild in 4 or 5 years.

 

[Mainstreet]

You mean like Philly did a few years ago when they tanked and won 19, 18, 10 and 28 games before finally starting to come together? They've been winning more than two thirds of their games since then. Where's this irreparable damage you and several others keep talking about?

You seem to be missing the fact that this was by design. We (the Suns) chose to play the tanking game and these are the consequences. We can throw away part of our future to salvage our present but IMO that dooms us to mediocrity. I feel like vomiting any time someone suggests we should do something drastic so we can win now. Making a drastic move isn't a solution and if it were, every loser team would be doing it. You win at an elite level ONLY with stars, we've drafted potential stars and now we have to wait for them to approach their prime and hopefully approach their potential.

No one is suggesting a drastic move. I'm not sure where you are getting that.

By design or not this is the Suns fourth miserable season in a row so Philly doesn't have anything on the Suns.

 

[AzStevenCal]

No one is suggesting a drastic move. I'm not sure where you are getting that.

By design or not this is the Suns fourth miserable season in a row so Philly doesn't have anything on the Suns.

The poster I responded to used these words: "I think the team is in need of a drastic move". It was the main reason I responded in the first place. I'm okay with improving via trade or signings, I'm not in favor of a panic move. Most of the drastic moves I can think of qualify as panic moves IMO.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

You mean like Philly did a few years ago when they tanked and won 19, 18, 10 and 28 games before finally starting to come together? They've been winning more than two thirds of their games since then. Where's this irreparable damage you and several others keep talking about?

You seem to be missing the fact that this was by design. We (the Suns) chose to play the tanking game and these are the consequences. We can throw away part of our future to salvage our present but IMO that dooms us to mediocrity. I feel like vomiting any time someone suggests we should do something drastic so we can win now. Making a drastic move isn't a solution and if it were, every loser team would be doing it. You win at an elite level ONLY with stars, we've drafted potential stars and now we have to wait for them to approach their prime and hopefully approach their potential.

This! Man, ALL DAY THIS.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

The post I responded to used these words: "I think the team is in need of a drastic move". It was the main reason I responded in the first place. I'm okay with improving via trade or signings, I'm not in favor of a panic move. Most of the drastic moves I can think of qualify as panic moves IMO.

Well that ends that conversation effectively.

 

[Cheesebeef]

No one is suggesting a drastic move. I'm not sure where you are getting that.

By design or not this is the Suns fourth miserable season in a row so Philly doesn't have anything on the Suns.

last year wasn't a design to be awful going into it. It became that way once it was apparent we were atrocious and Bledsoe quit, but make no mistake, most people on this board and including the Suns thought we were going to be improved last year with Bledsoe coming back healthy and adding JJ.

Trading Bledsoe BEFORE the season would have indicated we were all in on the tank from the get go, much like the Sixers kept trading guys like Michael Carter Williams who was coming off a rookie of the year frosh session for draft picks. But, that didn't happen and so Bledsoe got to hold us hostage and McD put himself in yet another terrible position where he had to deal from a position of complete weakness rather than strength.

 

[AzStevenCal]

The Suns have been doing what they are doing now at least since the 2016 draft and the 2013 draft if we want to go there. When the Suns weren't drafting early they selected Warren, Bogdon and Booker.

As I view it, the Suns losing has more to do with weak drafting and managerial decisions than getting the earliest picks.

We got lucky with Booker, he's worthy of a much higher pick. But this is kind of the way it works. If you don't need a miracle, you draft the best player not the most tantalizing prospect. But you usually need to be drafting first or second to grab a fairly safe high-end prospect. More often than not if you shoot for the moon on a pick from 4 to 20 or even later, you're going to strike out. If you have a solid team and just want to add another contributor, you can usually find a safe NBA level player in that same range. So yes, if you're swinging for the fences you're going to strike out fairly often.

You can build a competitive team with solid picks in the late lottery and lower but the likelihood of finding a superstar is very, very, very small. If all we wanted to be was a Portland or a Phoenix during the 50 and fade years, we really shouldn't have tanked.

 

[Mainstreet]

last year wasn't a design to be awful going into it. It became that way once it was apparent we were atrocious and Bledsoe quit, but make no mistake, most people on this board and including the Suns thought we were going to be improved last year with Bledsoe coming back healthy and adding JJ.

Trading Bledsoe BEFORE the season would have indicated we were all in on the tank from the get go, much like the Sixers kept trading guys like Michael Carter Williams who was coming off a rookie of the year frosh session for draft picks. But, that didn't happen and so Bledsoe got to hold us hostage and McD put himself in yet another terrible position where he had to deal from a position of complete weakness rather than strength.

I was saying the Suns have been awful four season in a row by design or not. The result is the same.

Now the Suns have another early draft pick in 2019.

Hinkie doesn't have anything on the Suns as far as losing.

 

[AzStevenCal]

last year wasn't a design to be awful going into it. It became that way once it was apparent we were atrocious and Bledsoe quit, but make no mistake, most people on this board and including the Suns thought we were going to be improved last year with Bledsoe coming back healthy and adding JJ.

Trading Bledsoe BEFORE the season would have indicated we were all in on the tank from the get go, much like the Sixers kept trading guys like Michael Carter Williams who was coming off a rookie of the year frosh session for draft picks. But, that didn't happen and so Bledsoe got to hold us hostage and McD put himself in yet another terrible position where he had to deal from a position of complete weakness rather than strength.

On at least a dozen different occasions in the 16 months prior to the Eric deal, various media types reported that we were trying to trade Bledsoe. Maybe they were all wrong but I suspect they knew what some of us refused to believe (and by some of us, I mean me at the time). There was no market, or rather there was no return acceptable to McD. But Bledsoe's style of play, his knees and his agent apparently made him a less than desirable trade target.

Personally I think the front office knew we were going to have to tank. I don't think they intended to do it until after the trade deadline but I can't believe they were stupid enough to truly believe that team could compete for a playoff spot. I just think they were walking the line between trying to sell seats and trying to become a true contender.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I was saying the Suns have been awful four season in a row by design or not. The result is the same.

Now the Suns have another early draft pick in 2019.

Hinkie doesn't have anything on the Suns as far as losing.

You've said something like this twice and it's not exactly accurate. Even if we go winless the rest of this season, we already have more wins during the 4 seasons you're referring to than Philly did during their 4 seasons of tanking. And consider, that was in spite of the advantage the 76ers face with an Eastern Conference schedule.

 

[SirStefan32]

I think the Sixers reference is in response to the constant whining about "irreparable damage" that losing is doing to the players and the organization. the truth is that once you start winning, nobody gives a crap about winning 20 games per year for four years. Or hell, for ten years, for that matter.

 

[Chaplin]

I think the Sixers reference is in response to the constant whining about "irreparable damage" that losing is doing to the players and the organization. the truth is that once you start winning, nobody gives a crap about winning 20 games per year for four years. Or hell, for ten years, for that matter.

Hell, a major drug scandal didn’t do irreparable damage to the franchise.

 

[Mainstreet]

You've said this twice and it's not exactly accurate. Even if we go winless the rest of this season, we already have more wins during the 4 seasons you're referring to than Philly did during their 4 seasons of tanking. And consider, that was in spite of the advantage the 76ers face with an Eastern Conference schedule.

The Suns are getting their fair share of early draft picks four seasons in a row including this season.

The Suns losing, intentional or not, puts them in the same category as the Hinkie rebuild philosophy. The results may differ slightly but the idea of losing for a better draft pick seems nearly the same.

 

[Mainstreet]

I think the Sixers reference is in response to the constant whining about "irreparable damage" that losing is doing to the players and the organization. the truth is that once you start winning, nobody gives a crap about winning 20 games per year for four years. Or hell, for ten years, for that matter.

If you are talking about the Philly reference I made, I'm saying the Suns losing (four seasons in a row) nearly compares to the 76ers designed effort to tank four seasons in a row.

 

[AzStevenCal]

The Suns are getting their fair share of early draft picks four seasons in a row including this season.

The Suns losing, intentional or not, puts them in the same category as the Hinkie rebuild philosophy. The results may differ slightly but the idea of losing for a better draft pick seems nearly the same.

Okay but the Hinkie plan calls for tanking until you get the number one pick in a great draft year (maybe more than once) because it's clear that on average, a bunch of 4's and 5's still don't usually equal a 1. You can draft at 3 in some classes and know you have a star coming but most of the time, the obvious greatness isn't there after the first or second pick. So if you tank and end up with the 4th pick, you're up against it unless it's a very rare draft class. The Lakers for example got the number 2 pick three drafts in a row, that beats the hell out of the luck we've had during this stretch from Len until at least Ayton.

 

[Mainstreet]

Okay but the Hinkie plan calls for tanking until you get the number one pick in a great draft year (maybe more than once) because it's clear that on average, a bunch of 4's and 5's still don't usually equal a 1. You can draft at 3 in some classes and know you have a star coming but most of the time, the obvious greatness isn't there after the first or second pick. So if you tank and end up with the 4th pick, you're up against it unless it's a very rare draft class. The Lakers for example got the number 2 pick three drafts in a row, that beats the hell out of the luck we've had during this stretch from Len until at least Ayton.

I have a feeling you support the Hinkie method. Four terrible losing seasons in a row for the Suns is enough for me.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I have a feeling you support the Hinkie method. Four terrible losing seasons in a row for the Suns is enough for me.

I hate the Hinkie plan, I've said that many times here. But I hate even worse the idea of living with this crap for 3 plus years only to abandon it before it finally pays off.

 

[Mainstreet]

I hate the Hinkie plan, I've said that many times here. But I hate even worse the idea of living with this crap for 3 plus years only to abandon it before it finally pays off.

The Suns are on their fourth year of being bad. This seems more than enough.

I prefer the Suns keep their draft pick in the 2019 draft because they have more than earned it, however, if they protect it and trade it, I'm not going to get upset either because the Suns are not invested in scouting this season.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I think the Sixers reference is in response to the constant whining about "irreparable damage" that losing is doing to the players and the organization. the truth is that once you start winning, nobody gives a crap about winning 20 games per year for four years. Or hell, for ten years, for that matter.

Yup that argument has never merited any support. So much evidence to the contrary.

 

[boisesuns]

I wish (but it won’t happen) we could sign Klay Thompson to get some defense and shooting ability to help spread the floor a little more. There will be no way you could double booker or ayton with him on the floor.

I would sign if we had the money or make a trade for a point guard that could manage some offense of flow little better.

I’m not sure if Rozier or Walker would fit that mold, but they are solid players.

 

[AzStevenCal]

The Suns are on their fourth year of being bad. This seems more than enough.

I prefer the Suns keep their draft pick in the 2019 draft because they have more than earned it, however, if they protect it and trade it, I'm not going to get upset either because the Suns are not invested in scouting this season.

I don't know what the Suns are doing for scouting, no one here does. Maybe they're going to use a scouting service, maybe they have some scouts in mind already, maybe they are promoting from within, maybe they could care less and will be trading the picks regardless? We just don't know. But I don't know what to say about the 4 bad years because I can't figure out why anyone expected anything different once we decided to bottom out for draft position.

You can't control how the lottery goes and you have no control over the quality of the draft class. The Hinkie plan was based on losing and losing and losing until you get the superstar(s) you're in search of. Had Embiid's injuries derailed him and had Hinkie been allowed to continue and had the NBA not changed the lottery rules, I'm quite confident Philly would be in a dogfight with us for Zion this season. IOW, it was never a 1 year or 2 year or even a 5 year plan, it's tank until you get what you need to compete at the highest level. If we weren't prepared to do that we should have never tanked.