ASU 2007-2008 Men's Basketball Thread

[MaoTosiFanClub]

Looks like the Kool aid and Euphoria is starting to wear off and things are returning back to normal for Basketball in AZ.

Yeah, but they'll get bragging rights again in a few days when football signing day comes around and Erickson hauls ina top 15 class while your boy Stoops gets a Mackovic-like class full of "sleepers" and "hidden gems"

 

[Russ Smith]

Though this might make for some interesting discussion.

http://www.nbadraft.net/Classof2011.asp

Bayless #6
Harden #8
-I hope this does not mean that Harden is gone after this year. I personally think he will stay for his sophomore year.

All I would add to this is NBAdraftnet is run by a bunch of teenage kids who have been woefully wrong about this stuff.

When UCLA signed Nikola Dragovic they had him rated as a 2008 lottery pick projected 8th in the draft, he's the 8th man at UCLA this year.

Earlier this year they were projecting Austin Daye of Gonzaga as the #1 overall pick 2 years from now, he's barely playing now at Gonzaga.

I think I'd take Harden over Bayless just because he's bigger and both guys can get their own shot. They're both great players, I just think Harden being bigger gives him an NBA edge. I also think Harden is a better prospect than Mayo not only is he bigger, he's 2 years younger than Mayo.

 

[AsUdUdE]

IMO

Harden is very similar to D Wade in their ability to drive into the lane and create their own shot...

Bayless is a lot like Stephon Marbury....

In conclusion I wuld MUCH rather have D Wade than Marbury...

 

[Arizona's Finest]

IMO

Harden is very similar to D Wade in their ability to drive into the lane and create their own shot...

Bayless is a lot like Stephon Marbury....

In conclusion I wuld MUCH rather have D Wade than Marbury...

Harden has no where near the hops and passing ability of Jerryd Bayless let alone D Wade.

 

[AsUdUdE]

D Wade Sophomore year

MIN FG% 3P% FT% RPG APG TPG BPG SPG PPG
PG
01-02 Marq, 29.2 48.7 34.6 69.0 6.6 3.4 3.0 1.1 2.5 17.8


James Harden

SEASONMINPTSREBASTTOA/TSTLBLKPFFG%FT%3P%PPS2007-200833.118.85.32.62.31.161.9.61.6.546.765.4201.66


Harden Averages more PPG, while shooting a higher FG%, FT%, and 3PT%, but also averages 1 less RPG, and less than 1 APG... Wade also averages more steals and BPG, but also more Tournovers as well...

Bayless:

SEASONMINPTSREBASTTOA/TSTLBLKPFFG%FT%3P%PPS2007-200834.919.92.84.63.31.421.0.11.9.485.861.4571.64

Bayless averages more PPG, APG, but his A/T ratio is about the same as Harden... Harden averages more steals and BPG, and shoots A LOT higher FG% than Bayless, while Bayless has an edge in the 3PT range...

Both players are very good... and statiscally better than wade his sophomore year (He didn't play his freshman year due to grades)... That whole Harden=Wade was mainly done toungue-in-cheek, but when you look at the stats, and the higher level of compition both these players are playing with... its pretty exciting to see them devolp into stars before our eyes....

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

Harden's not nearly as athletic as Wade, he reminds me more of Michael Dickerson once he came of age.

And Bayless has twice the work ethic and half the mental issues of Stephon Marbury although as players they're pretty similar.

They're both 2009 lottery picks at the latest.

 

[AsUdUdE]

Harden's not nearly as athletic as Wade, he reminds me more of Michael Dickerson once he came of age.

And Bayless has twice the work ethic and half the mental issues of Stephon Marbury although as players they're pretty similar.

They're both 2009 lottery picks at the latest.

I love how you compare ASUs star player to a UofA guy who was in the league for 5 years, and had a Career FG% of 42%... also average 2 RPG and 2 APG....

Typical UofA guy....

Harden is Dickerson about as much as Bayless will be Eddie House...

 

[Arizona's Finest]

My point is this - I have seen both players play 3-4 times this year and I have watched more NBA basketball then anyone not being paid for that type of thing.

Bayless - by look, feel, and athleticism reminds me alot of Dwade. Except Bayless might actually have better range while Wade finishes around the rim better than anyone on the planet.

If I had to compare James Harden's game to anyone it would be a smaller Paul Pierce.

And thats nothing to scoff at.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Bayless looks like Tony Parker to me, but shoots better at this age. He is a pain in the ass. I like the Paul Pierce analogy for Harden...a tough player who can get to the rim but can also stroke it from outside.

 

[Skkorpion]

Bayless and Harden are two very good college freshmen. Beyond that, they've proven nothing.

I don't see a Magic Johnson, LeBron James, Michael Jordan, Dwayne Wade, Tony Parker or Brandon Roy in either of them.

Bayless looks to have more upside. He might develop into an NBA starting guard, barring injury.

Harden is a little strange because, for all his talents and decent height, he can't seem to jump. No elevation. love his play and glad he's playing for us but I don't see NBA talent there.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

I love how you compare ASUs star player to a UofA guy who was in the league for 5 years, and had a Career FG% of 42%... also average 2 RPG and 2 APG....

Typical UofA guy....

Harden is Dickerson about as much as Bayless will be Eddie House...

Micheal Dickerson was the leading scorer on two teams that finished in the top 5 in the NCAA and won a National Title both of which feats are James Harden's wet dreams. He was also a pretty damn good pro until injuries derailed his career. Then again, I wouldn't expect someone who called ASU going 12-6 in the Pac-10 this year and getting a #3 seed to know anything about basketball in general. Wait, wasn't UA supposed to be 10-9 right now? Nice call!

 

[Gaddabout]

Harden is more of a Josh Howard kind of player -- lots of skills, freakishly long arms, but not the guy who will lead an NBA team. Harden has a 7-foot wingspan. It makes up for some lack of hops, and he's also naturally stronger than most college players at his position. He's the kind of player every NBA team will want want in their rotation, but he's not going to set the world on fire. That's not his game.

I doubt Harden enters the draft before his junior year. I think he knows the sky is not unlimited for him, and he's quickly approaching the ceiling. That's not a bad thing. He's a very, very good player.

 

[AsUdUdE]

Micheal Dickerson was the leading scorer on two teams that finished in the top 5 in the NCAA and won a National Title both of which feats are James Harden's wet dreams. He was also a pretty damn good pro until injuries derailed his career. Then again, I wouldn't expect someone who called ASU going 12-6 in the Pac-10 this year and getting a #3 seed to know anything about basketball in general. Wait, wasn't UA supposed to be 10-9 right now? Nice call!

WOW.. first of all.. Calling him a pretty Damn good pro is a RIDICULOUS statement...

Lets not forget he played for the Grizzlies... While he was on the team, they finished in Last place every year, and While I know you will make the argument.. but but but.. He scored 18 PPG, and the Next year 16 PPG...

Well the reality is.. So did 'Big Country' Reeves who also averages 16-17 PPG and 8 RPG for the Grizz... but I guess if he went to UofA you would also consider him a "Pretty Damn Good Pro until injuries shorted his career too"

the number of below average players who look decent on the worst team in the league is WAY to many to name....

If you play on a VERY bad team, you can just keep shooting because no one gives a crap, and Dickerson in his two "great" years took an average of 16 shots PER GAME... Hell... Marcus Banks would score 16-18 Points if he took 16 Shots per game....

And as for your pointing out that I was wrong on my predication... I would hold off on all the Smack talk until I wasn't STILL looking up at ASU in the Standings in February... Its pretty easy to point out when someone was wrong AFTER the fact.. where were you when I made it.. Why did it take you SOOO long to defend your team.. I Love how you had to wait just to make sure I wasn't right before you said something.. but as of today... ASU is still ahead in BASKETBALL..

So your right.. we may not finish 12-6... but 10-8, 9-9, will still work, and we will see where we are in the end....

 

[AsUdUdE]

I think Harden is soo good at splitting the double team and getting to the rim its impressive, add that to the fact that he is an above average passer and Rebounder, it seems he has the tools to be a VERY good player.. superstar? maybe not, but All-Star.. I think so...

Also the fact that he is a leader, the kid just turned 18 in August, yet has taken over the young upstart Devils and is the one they turn to win the games in the 2nd half....

Maybe its just me, but I think jumping ability is a little over-rated...so what if he can't jump out of the gym, he is a GREAT shooter, and can get into the lane at will... Will he dunk over Oden in the lane? Nope, but will he go up and under, and lay the ball in.. yup...

So, yes, I think its WAY to early to tell if he becomes Wade, but I think claiming he does't have NBA talent is just not true, IMO....

I do think the Paul Pierce Analogy is a solid one...

 

[Skkorpion]

Harden is more of a Josh Howard kind of player -- lots of skills, freakishly long arms, but not the guy who will lead an NBA team. Harden has a 7-foot wingspan. It makes up for some lack of hops, and he's also naturally stronger than most college players at his position. He's the kind of player every NBA team will want want in their rotation, but he's not going to set the world on fire. That's not his game.

I doubt Harden enters the draft before his junior year. I think he knows the sky is not unlimited for him, and he's quickly approaching the ceiling. That's not a bad thing. He's a very, very good player.

Good evaluation. Love the kid. Hope he stays through his senior year.

Thanks gaddabout.

 

[Mr. Boldin]

IMO

Harden is very similar to D Wade in their ability to drive into the lane and create their own shot...

Bayless is a lot like Stephon Marbury....

In conclusion I wuld MUCH rather have D Wade than Marbury...

Harden doesnt compare to D Wade at all. Wade is an athletic freak who can get to the basket like Harden, but has much better handles and can lock you down if he needs to. Wade also has very good vision and is a good rebounder. The only compairson between the two is their ability to create contact while getting to the hoop and a mid-range jumper.

 

[Mr. Boldin]

Harden is more of a Josh Howard kind of player -- lots of skills, freakishly long arms, but not the guy who will lead an NBA team. Harden has a 7-foot wingspan. It makes up for some lack of hops, and he's also naturally stronger than most college players at his position. He's the kind of player every NBA team will want want in their rotation, but he's not going to set the world on fire. That's not his game.

I doubt Harden enters the draft before his junior year. I think he knows the sky is not unlimited for him, and he's quickly approaching the ceiling. That's not a bad thing. He's a very, very good player.

I wouldnt even compare him to Josh Howard. Howard has great athleticism and never had near the jumper Harden has now, when he was at Wake. I do like the Paul Pierce compairson. Obvioulsy, he isnt Paul Pierce but they have similar games. Both can put it on the floor and get to their spot, despite not being a great athlete. Both have very good jumpers, both can hit from mid-range, and both get to the foul line.

 

[AsUdUdE]

Harden doesnt compare to D Wade at all. Wade is an athletic freak who can get to the basket like Harden, but has much better handles and can lock you down if he needs to. Wade also has very good vision and is a good rebounder. The only compairson between the two is their ability to create contact while getting to the hoop and a mid-range jumper.

I agree.. I said Harden is a lot like Wade in their ability to get into the lane, create their own shot, and get the the FT line....

However I do think Harden's Passing and rebounding are WAY under-rated...but Wade is definently more athletic, anf Harden is a better shooter...

But your right, OVERALL they are not very similar, but the they do the same things very well...

 

[Arizona's Finest]

I want to clarify one thing wioth my comparisons of DWADE and Bayless and Harden and Paul Pierce.

I am in no way saying these players will actuallyend up the level of stars as those aftermentioned players. There is just to many intangibles and unseen circumstances that come into play.

However when I watch both players I will reiterate - Bayless's ceiling is Dwayne Wade (and from his will and reported desire to be great I think he will end up being a multi time all star) and Harden's is Paul Pierce. A guy who may drop farther then he should because he won't kill you with athleticism - but will be a great pro because he is smart, fundamentally strong, and has the desire to be great. Plus he get into the lane at will and finish.

I like both players - but if I'm drafting and have the choice I take Bayless - for the reasons mentioned above.

 

[Russ Smith]

I was looking up Bayless' age and came across Draft Express. They say best case comparison Monta Ellis, worst case Daniel Gibson.

Monta is a pretty good comparison although Bayless shoots it better and isn't the defender Monta is.

The big difference is Bayless won't be 20 until August, Ellis was old for his class in school.

A lot of UCLA fans were saying Westbrook was a better prospect than mayo too, I never agreed with that other than to say as a true soph he's younger than Mayo and is definitely a late bloomer. He's not as good a shooter as Mayo(or Bayless or Harden) that's his shortcoming. Athletic, terrific defender, turnover prone(they all are) but he's a weaker shooter than they are.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

I was looking up Bayless' age and came across Draft Express. They say best case comparison Monta Ellis, worst case Daniel Gibson.

Monta is a pretty good comparison although Bayless shoots it better and isn't the defender Monta is.

The big difference is Bayless won't be 20 until August, Ellis was old for his class in school.

A lot of UCLA fans were saying Westbrook was a better prospect than mayo too, I never agreed with that other than to say as a true soph he's younger than Mayo and is definitely a late bloomer. He's not as good a shooter as Mayo(or Bayless or Harden) that's his shortcoming. Athletic, terrific defender, turnover prone(they all are) but he's a weaker shooter than they are.

Russ I think you think Bayless is ALOT smaller then he actually is. He outweighs Ellis NOW by 20 pounds. I actually think the comparison is not giving enough credit to Bayless as he is a better shooter and passer then Ellis and not as well....dimunitive. Bayless may be listed as 6'3 but he doesn't play 6'3. I actually think Ellis plays more like he is 6'1.

And Daniel Gibson.....LOL. I think those comparisons are from people who watch some grainy tape and look at the stat line. I just don't see it.

It's probably the Wildcat in me. But Ellis is a punk. Bayless is a warrior.

 

[Russ Smith]

Russ I think you think Bayless is ALOT smaller then he actually is. He outweighs Ellis NOW by 20 pounds. I actually think the comparison is not giving enough credit to Bayless as he is a better shooter and passer then Ellis and not as well....dimunitive. Bayless may be listed as 6'3 but he doesn't play 6'3. I actually think Ellis plays more like he is 6'1.

And Daniel Gibson.....LOL. I think those comparisons are from people who watch some grainy tape and look at the stat line. I just don't see it.

It's probably the Wildcat in me. But Ellis is a punk. Bayless is a warrior.

Ellis goes to the rim as well as any guard his size in the NBA IMHO. I actually considered that a compliment to Bayless. yes he's skinnier than bayless but Bayless isn't really 6'3"(as I said earlier the way he jumps it doesn't matter) but Ellis doesn't play his size either he can really get up.

FYI NBA.com lists Monta at 6'3" 177, Arizona lists Bayless at 6'3" 191, you're right about the weight but they're listed at the same height and I doubt either of them is really 6'3". Bayless is a better shooter, that's Monta's weakness a reliable jumpshot.

FYI apparently Howland said today that Mbah a Moute was cleared to practice and cleared on an MRI so it appears he'll be cleared to play for Thursday and Saturday. So it looks like UCLA will be as close to full strength as we're going to be(I'm hearing Roll won't be back this year).

 

[Skkorpion]

Good gawd almighty, Russ. This is a thread about ASU basketball and the discussion had turned to evaluating Harden and Bayless, the two good young players playing in this state.

UCLA and any of their players are not relevant in the discussion. They would be if we were discussing PAC 10 hoops. We aren't.

Besides which, I still hate Alcindor and Sidney Wicks and John Wooden.

 

[Russ Smith]

Good gawd almighty, Russ. This is a thread about ASU basketball and the discussion had turned to evaluating Harden and Bayless, the two good young players playing in this state.

UCLA and any of their players are not relevant in the discussion. They would be if we were discussing PAC 10 hoops. We aren't.

Besides which, I still hate Alcindor and Sidney Wicks and John Wooden.

Silly me. I thought since ASU played UCLA on Thursday it would be relevant to mention one of UCLA's starters was going to be cleared to play again having not played the last 2 1/2 games.


The mention of Westbrook in the prior post is because he's the guy who will be guarding both Bayless and Harden.

I also thought the title of this thread was 2007-2008 mens basketball thread I must have missed it being changed to Bayless and Harden exclusively.

 

[Russ Smith]

FYI Harden made the midseason top 30 for the Naismith award list, Bayless didn't.

Assuming it's based on Bayless missing games.