The Kyler Murray bad decision thread

BritCard

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So I went back and watched the game this morning. It didn't take long once I skipped past all the Panthers possession.

Three things I noticed.

1. Kyler is playing really poorly. His technique is off, lots of back foot throws etc but mainly just really bad decisions and not reading the field.
2. He isn't helped by bad play calling. In every set of downs there is always a terrible play call. Usual something that has already proven not to work.
3. If 1 or 2 doesn't get him them bad penalties will. There were 2 or 3 times we had 3rd and 7 turn into 3rd and 12 due to false starts.

These were the 4 worst plays he made, baring in mind there weren't may passing plays that weren't predetermined quick releases.

1. This was the play you might remember was under thrown and nearly intercepted early on and Kirk had to bat it down.

Kyler decides to throw to Kirk in tight coverage with Drake in motion underneath for an easy 1st down. Boston is caught going the wrong way and in the next few frames Boston gets nowhere near him.

Arnold is also wide open, 50/50 whether he gets the 1st there as there is a linebacker sat on the 1st down line.

Also notice how deep he is. He's a full 11 yards behind the LOS. I went and checked others and the most I could find was 9.

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2. This one was poor from Kyler. He has time in a clean pocket but never goes through his reads. Keys on Nuk very quickly for a throw behind the LOS (Nuk behind the 7) for a 3 yard gain.

Mean while he has Fitz in acres of space sat on the 1st down line with a wide open throwing lane.

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3. This was a terrible one. It might be his worse decision just because it's so simple. Again he has a clean pocket. He's tucked in there nice and snug but takes the quick dump off to Edmonds.

I took this shot a half second after his release so I could fit everyone in but not of these other receivers have been abandoned because of ball direction. They were open before the throw because these DB's took a huge cushion on this play.

Isabella is wide open for the first down on an easy throw and both Nuk and Fitz have nobody anywhere near them. Both defenders are a good 10 yards away off the screen.

A good QB here would sell the pass to Andy with his eyes, draw the safety down and then throw it to Kirk over the top. But I'll settle for average and just hit Andy for the 1st.

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4. The other contender for worst decision of the day. Down 14 with 47 left in the half and he goes with the worst option. Again he is clean, no pressure at all but doesn't give the right side of the field a chance, he's already decided this is going to Nuk even though Nuk has a CB tracking him just off the screen.

This is the one where Nuk was forced out of bounds and tried the one hander.

I've circled Isabella on the 35 yard line because he has a bunch of space. A laser here and Andy should be able to turn at get the 1st despite the CB heading his way from wide.

Edmonds is also open but uncircled on the 36 because there's no clear throwing lane and a floater to him probably doesn't get 1st down.

Kirk however at the top of the screen is just planting his foot to turn into a dig route which completely loses the CB and he becomes wide open for the 1st down in half a second.

And I circled Fitz in Orange which is a tough but NFL level throw because he is in motion, the 2 linebacker near him are bearing down on the underneath and half a second he has a huge window around the 29 yard line for a 1st down and more. And Murray has a clear lane to see that.

If we get the 1st down here and score before the half maybe it's a different game in the 2nd.


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It's not the receivers. The receivers are getting open when they are given the chance to get open. With a different QB yesterday (even Teddy B) it would have been a different story.

But on saying all that he's also not getting any help. Kliff's run plays suck this year, or his calling does, or both. Kliff calls way too many bubble screens. I think about 15% of our pass plays were screens behind the LOS and not one of them worked, yet he didn't stop calling them.

So much of our passing is underneath that teams are keying most of the defense on that and leaving a couple of guys deep to cover the big shot while not worrying about anything in between.

The scary thing is, the offense has got worse every game and Kliff isn't learning.
 
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Kyler in 4 games

69% comp 919 yards, 6.4 AVG, 7 TD's, 5 INT's, 87 passer rating

Justin Herbert in 3 games as a rookie

72% comp 931 yards, 8.7 AVG, 5 TD's, 3 INT's 102 passer rating

The "Kyler is still learning" he only played one season in college crowd can take a hike.

And Herbert has done that being thrown in at warm ups, with no rookie camp, short offseason, getting 2nd team reps and without their deep threat Mike Williams.

No more excuses for him. Including receivers. Herbert threw TD's to Guyton, Parham and Tyron Johnson yesterday.
 

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#3 to make your point you need to show us BEFORE the ball is in the air because clearly the defenders are all running towards Edmonds by the time you took the pic.

I don't know what point you're trying to make on Herbert beyond he's having a very good rookie year. He had 1293 pass attempts in college, Kyler had 519. That and size were my 2 biggest questions on Kyler pre draft, there's just not a ton of track record on guys with that little experience starting in games. Herbert started 2 full years and most of a 3rd he's much more prepared coming into the NFL than Kyler was.

He has to get better we all know that.
 
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#3 to make your point you need to show us BEFORE the ball is in the air because clearly the defenders are all running towards Edmonds by the time you took the pic.

I don't know what point you're trying to make on Herbert beyond he's having a very good rookie year. He had 1293 pass attempts in college, Kyler had 519. That and size were my 2 biggest questions on Kyler pre draft, there's just not a ton of track record on guys with that little experience starting in games. Herbert started 2 full years and most of a 3rd he's much more prepared coming into the NFL than Kyler was.

He has to get better we all know that.

3 is time stamped. You can watch it quite easily on highlights. Those guys were open. There were other plays I didn't include, I chose these only because of the missed shots. The reason I stopped it there is because when the ball is still in hand you cant see the guys on the left of the screen.

With Herbert I'm pointing out that people need to stop using college reps as an excuse. He has 20 starts in the NFL. Every NFL start is worth about 5 college starts. If Kyler wasn't ready to start in an offense that's he's played all his life then he shouldn't have been #1 pick.

And on top of all this we have discussed already, I don't like his attitude on the sidelines. Whenever the camera pans to him he's just sat there looking miserable. I want to see some Mahomes type stoking of fires between drives. Even Haskins is doing that.
 

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This is where people are getting fooled...it is all on Kyler.

Kliff can't get him in a rhythm if he can't complete the passes. Kliff can't call only deep and intermediate throws when Kyler isn't completing those. Kliff can't design play with outlets and layered routes and then have Kyler only hit the outlets. Is Kliff perfect, no. But the only time play callers are is when the plays are being executed by the QB.

The line is giving Kyler plenty of time. The line isn't telling Kyler to throw quick when they protect him and then hold the ball when they give up pressure. Are they prefect, no, but they have been good enough.

The WRs are getting open. Hopkins is great and the rest are average. What makes those other players worse is Kyler. Sometimes the ball if off. Sometimes there is miscommunication. Sometimes they can't make the great play. Are these guys all uber-talented? No, but Kyler is making them worse rather than better.

Same with the TEs. How many times do we have to see Kyler overthrow 6'6 Dan Arnold?

Like most offenses, ours begins and ends with Kyler Murray. I don't know why he wasn't at the post game press conference, but that isn't a great look. Our offense, designed around a unique talent, can't be successful until that unique talent is performing at a high level. We haven't seen that this past two weeks and our offensive performance reflects that.
 

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3 is time stamped. You can watch it quite easily on highlights. Those guys were open. There were other plays I didn't include, I chose these only because of the missed shots. The reason I stopped it there is because when the ball is still in hand you cant see the guys on the left of the screen.

With Herbert I'm pointing out that people need to stop using college reps as an excuse. He has 20 starts in the NFL. Every NFL start is worth about 5 college starts. If Kyler wasn't ready to start in an offense that's he's played all his life then he shouldn't have been #1 pick.

And on top of all this we have discussed already, I don't like his attitude on the sidelines. Whenever the camera pans to him he's just sat there looking miserable. I want to see some Mahomes type stoking of fires between drives. Even Haskins is doing that.


There's a ton of evidence from NFL scouts that how many reps guys get in college are a great predictor of NFL success at QB. there's very little on a guy like Kyler who both didn't play that much, and played baseball. Wilson was a somewhat similar guy because he played baseball but again he had twice as many reps in college.

Kyler was not as seasoned coming out of college as Herbert is, obviously he played a season in the NFL.


I don't have the game taped I watched it via the internet. I'm merely pointing out on the pic for #3 literally every defender in the picture is in the process of running to Chase Edmonds because that's where the ball was thrown so it creates a misleading idea of how open the other guys are. They might be open, but they're not as open as that pic makes it look.
 

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What's easier or more plausible for the near future? Fixing Murray's head or fixing his poor mechanics?

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Thanks for doing this, Brit. I used to do this and it’s a huge pain to get the screenshots and everything together.

I think a real missing piece here is the running game. Maybe it’s Maxx Williams being out? We are really struggling to keep the offense on schedule and part of it is that we’re not getting 3-4 yards on first down — running or passing.
 

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This is where people are getting fooled...it is all on Kyler.

Kliff can't get him in a rhythm if he can't complete the passes. Kliff can't call only deep and intermediate throws when Kyler isn't completing those. Kliff can't design play with outlets and layered routes and then have Kyler only hit the outlets. Is Kliff perfect, no. But the only time play callers are is when the plays are being executed by the QB.

The line is giving Kyler plenty of time. The line isn't telling Kyler to throw quick when they protect him and then hold the ball when they give up pressure. Are they prefect, no, but they have been good enough.

The WRs are getting open. Hopkins is great and the rest are average. What makes those other players worse is Kyler. Sometimes the ball if off. Sometimes there is miscommunication. Sometimes they can't make the great play. Are these guys all uber-talented? No, but Kyler is making them worse rather than better.

Same with the TEs. How many times do we have to see Kyler overthrow 6'6 Dan Arnold?

Like most offenses, ours begins and ends with Kyler Murray. I don't know why he wasn't at the post game press conference, but that isn't a great look. Our offense, designed around a unique talent, can't be successful until that unique talent is performing at a high level. We haven't seen that this past two weeks and our offensive performance reflects that.
So so so much truth
 

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It’s a collaboration of things. I would have benched Kyler for the last two drives.

The worst decision was just before the half which seemed to be frustration coming out in Kyler. He has to learn to deal with failure which he has NEVER had to do.
A short pass before the half would have given us an option of kicking a Fg or perhaps going for it on 4th down.

Bottom line this offense totally depends on 1st down. The minute we are behind the chains things deteriorate very quickly.
 
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There's a ton of evidence from NFL scouts that how many reps guys get in college are a great predictor of NFL success at QB. there's very little on a guy like Kyler who both didn't play that much, and played baseball. Wilson was a somewhat similar guy because he played baseball but again he had twice as many reps in college.

Kyler was not as seasoned coming out of college as Herbert is, obviously he played a season in the NFL.


I don't have the game taped I watched it via the internet. I'm merely pointing out on the pic for #3 literally every defender in the picture is in the process of running to Chase Edmonds because that's where the ball was thrown so it creates a misleading idea of how open the other guys are. They might be open, but they're not as open as that pic makes it look.

I understand, thats why I mentioned that wasn't the case in the OP :)
 
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What's easier or more plausible for the near future? Fixing Murray's head or fixing his poor mechanics?

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Mechanics. Got to get the fundamentals right first or impossible to get the head right when he's sailing passes.
 
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It’s a collaboration of things. I would have benched Kyler for the last two drives.

The worst decision was just before the half which seemed to be frustration coming out in Kyler. He has to learn to deal with failure which he has NEVER had to do.
A short pass before the half would have given us an option of kicking a Fg or perhaps going for it on 4th down.

Bottom line this offense totally depends on 1st down. The minute we are behind the chains things deteriorate very quickly.

What I really don't like are his moody silent brooding on the sideline between drives.

I want my QB upbeat and telling the offense they are going to get it done the next drive. Get some mood going. Not sitting there sulking.
 

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What I really don't like are his moody silent brooding on the sideline between drives.

I want my QB upbeat and telling the offense they are going to get it done the next drive. Get some mood going. Not sitting there sulking.
Except how you know he doesn’t do that when the cameras aren’t showing?
 
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Except how you know he doesn’t do that when the cameras aren’t showing?

I don't. But the odds of them never catching that and only ever catching him sat there sulking are slim.

@TheCardFan was there yesterday. Did you see Kyler geeing up the offense at all?
 

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I understand, thats why I mentioned that wasn't the case in the OP :)


Fair enough all the defenders except the guy covering Kirk were apparently running backwards with a body lean that suggests they're running forwards.
 

Russ Smith

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It’s a collaboration of things. I would have benched Kyler for the last two drives.

The worst decision was just before the half which seemed to be frustration coming out in Kyler. He has to learn to deal with failure which he has NEVER had to do.
A short pass before the half would have given us an option of kicking a Fg or perhaps going for it on 4th down.

Bottom line this offense totally depends on 1st down. The minute we are behind the chains things deteriorate very quickly.


I think benching him now makes no sense, he needs to be out there to figure out what he's missing. If we had Hundley to take a drive or two it might help but with Streveler near as we can tell he's only there to run so I'm not sure anything Kyler would see with him in the game is going to help Kyler. I wonder if Kurt Warner still has much contact with the team it would great if a guy like that could get on a zoom call with Kyler and help him on pre snap reads and progressions, something Kurt was a master of.
 

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So I went back and watched the game this morning. It didn't take long once I skipped past all the Panthers possession.

Three things I noticed.

1. Kyler is playing really poorly. His technique is off, lots of back foot throws etc but mainly just really bad decisions and not reading the field.
2. He isn't helped by bad play calling. In every set of downs there is always a terrible play call. Usual something that has already proven not to work.
3. If 1 or 2 doesn't get him them bad penalties will. There were 2 or 3 times we had 3rd and 7 turn into 3rd and 12 due to false starts.

These were the 4 worst plays he made, baring in mind there weren't may passing plays that weren't predetermined quick releases.

1. This was the play you might remember was under thrown and nearly intercepted early on and Kirk had to bat it down.

Kyler decides to throw to Kirk in tight coverage with Drake in motion underneath for an easy 1st down. Boston is caught going the wrong way and in the next few frames Boston gets nowhere near him.

Arnold is also wide open, 50/50 whether he gets the 1st there as there is a linebacker sat on the 1st down line.

Also notice how deep he is. He's a full 11 yards behind the LOS. I went and checked others and the most I could find was 9.

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2. This one was poor from Kyler. He has time in a clean pocket but never goes through his reads. Keys on Nuk very quickly for a throw behind the LOS (Nuk behind the 7) for a 3 yard gain.

Mean while he has Fitz in acres of space sat on the 1st down line with a wide open throwing lane.

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3. This was a terrible one. It might be his worse decision just because it's so simple. Again he has a clean pocket. He's tucked in there nice and snug but takes the quick dump off to Edmonds.

I took this shot a half second after his release so I could fit everyone in but not of these other receivers have been abandoned because of ball direction. They were open before the throw because these DB's took a huge cushion on this play.

Isabella is wide open for the first down on an easy throw and both Nuk and Fitz have nobody anywhere near them. Both defenders are a good 10 yards away off the screen.

A good QB here would sell the pass to Andy with his eyes, draw the safety down and then throw it to Kirk over the top. But I'll settle for average and just hit Andy for the 1st.

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4. The other contender for worst decision of the day. Down 14 with 47 left in the half and he goes with the worst option. Again he is clean, no pressure at all but doesn't give the right side of the field a chance, he's already decided this is going to Nuk even though Nuk has a CB tracking him just off the screen.

This is the one where Nuk was forced out of bounds and tried the one hander.

I've circled Isabella on the 35 yard line because he has a bunch of space. A laser here and Andy should be able to turn at get the 1st despite the CB heading his way from wide.

Edmonds is also open but uncircled on the 36 because there's no clear throwing lane and a floater to him probably doesn't get 1st down.

Kirk however at the top of the screen is just planting his foot to turn into a dig route which completely loses the CB and he becomes wide open for the 1st down in half a second.

And I circled Fitz in Orange which is a tough but NFL level throw because he is in motion, the 2 linebacker near him are bearing down on the underneath and half a second he has a huge window around the 29 yard line for a 1st down and more. And Murray has a clear lane to see that.

If we get the 1st down here and score before the half maybe it's a different game in the 2nd.


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It's not the receivers. The receivers are getting open when they are given the chance to get open. With a different QB yesterday (even Teddy B) it would have been a different story.

But on saying all that he's also not getting any help. Kliff's run plays suck this year, or his calling does, or both. Kliff calls way too many bubble screens. I think about 15% of our pass plays were screens behind the LOS and not one of them worked, yet he didn't stop calling them.

So much of our passing is underneath that teams are keying most of the defense on that and leaving a couple of guys deep to cover the big shot while not worrying about anything in between.

The scary thing is, the offense has got worse every game and Kliff isn't learning.
In fairness to that 1st play. I'd say he should have hit Chase. The backer was lurking on Arnold.

Truth be told..I dont think he could/can see,
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It’s a collaboration of things. I would have benched Kyler for the last two drives.

The worst decision was just before the half which seemed to be frustration coming out in Kyler. He has to learn to deal with failure which he has NEVER had to do.
A short pass before the half would have given us an option of kicking a Fg or perhaps going for it on 4th down.

Bottom line this offense totally depends on 1st down. The minute we are behind the chains things deteriorate very quickly.
Thing is..

If you watched him at OU he never was a 3rd and 12 kind of QB. He wasnt a Mahomes or Joe Burrow (pocket presence) guy who could move off a spot and then throw downfield to convert these plays.

It was rare that he he converted those kinds of downs. He's reliant on the running game. Its that simple.


People can post all the screenshots they want. Guys like Russell Wilson were missing these exact same open wrs. The issue is Kyler doesnt move to see guys open and let it rip.

He lacks nuance at the QB position. Which will take time. The issue is he hasnt figured out how to use his mobility to find guys open and throw accurately. He cant see the middle of the field well. Especially with Cole at C.
 

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Thing is..

If you watched him at OU he never was a 3rd and 12 kind of QB. He wasnt a Mahomes or Joe Burrow (pocket presence) guy who could move off a spot and then throw downfield to convert these plays.

It was rare that he he converted those kinds of downs. He's reliant on the running game. Its that simple.


People can post all the screenshots they want. Guys like Russell Wilson were missing these exact same open wrs. The issue is Kyler doesnt move to see guys open and let it rip.

He lacks nuance at the QB position. Which will take time. The issue is he hasnt figured out how to use his mobility to find guys open and throw accurately. He cant see the middle of the field well. Especially with Cole at C.

I'll keep saying it, until the cows come home...his lazy throws off the back foot are what's most troubling. He's trying to just rely on his arm and that's getting him into trouble. If he'd step into his throws, he would improve 10x, IMO. His arm strength is good, but not Mahomes elite.
 

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In fairness to that 1st play. I'd say he should have hit Chase. The backer was lurking on Arnold.

Truth be told..I dont think he could/can see,
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that first pass to Fitz is beyond painful. He’s got a HUGE pocket, time throw and Fitz WIDE open and air mails it.
 

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Especially with Cole at C.
Didn't think of this angle. I wonder if they will need to start looking at drafting and signing shorter lineman for this reason alone. Also, if and how much Shipley's height helped him in this regard.
 
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Didn't think of this angle. I wonder if they will need to start looking at drafting and signing shorter lineman for this reason alone. Also, if and how much Shipley's height helped him in this regard.

The 2022 O line

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Thing is..

If you watched him at OU he never was a 3rd and 12 kind of QB. He wasnt a Mahomes or Joe Burrow (pocket presence) guy who could move off a spot and then throw downfield to convert these plays.

It was rare that he he converted those kinds of downs. He's reliant on the running game. Its that simple.


People can post all the screenshots they want. Guys like Russell Wilson were missing these exact same open wrs. The issue is Kyler doesnt move to see guys open and let it rip.

He lacks nuance at the QB position. Which will take time. The issue is he hasnt figured out how to use his mobility to find guys open and throw accurately. He cant see the middle of the field well. Especially with Cole at C.

I do not buy the height of the center being a vision problem, since one cannot control the height of the DL lined up opposite of the OL. The visual perspective dropping back like Kurt Warner once said makes it hard for any QB to see unless your 6'7, while you look for lanes to throw. I think Kyler sees the field well enough, but also has a paranoia now about having the ball tipped when he sees those open targets, maybe that is partly the issue with the overthrows
 
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