Suns updates and discussion for the 2023-24 season

Suns_fan69

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I don't find 2nd in 3pt shooting surprising, unless you mean you are surprised we aren't first.

Turnovers and giving up offensive rebounds are our two biggest issues - and not using Durant as effectively as we should on offense - although I have seen some improvement recently.
I expected it to be lower actually, we had a couple rough games earlier in the season shooting wise that but I guess the recent hot streak has balanced that out.
 

Hoop Head

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Yeah, it's tough to say he isn't being utilized effectively when he is averaging 31 points on 65% true shooting.

I'd say he's been efficient as a scorer but he's also responsible for a lot of our boneheaded turnovers. He makes some lazy passes. I'd take the ball out of his hands a little as far as when he's not scoring, he needs to make more simplistic passes rather than hunting for assists.
 

AzStevenCal

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I'd say he's been efficient as a scorer but he's also responsible for a lot of our boneheaded turnovers. He makes some lazy passes. I'd take the ball out of his hands a little as far as when he's not scoring, he needs to make more simplistic passes rather than hunting for assists.
Yeah his 7 turnovers last night had a lot to do with us needing his heroics. I don't recall him having such a problem with unforced turnovers in the past? I'm hoping it's just unfamiliarity with his teammates or our offense but we'll see.
 

Suns_fan69

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Yeah his 7 turnovers last night had a lot to do with us needing his heroics. I don't recall him having such a problem with unforced turnovers in the past? I'm hoping it's just unfamiliarity with his teammates or our offense but we'll see.
Don't know about 'unforced', but looking at his history, he's always been turnover prone: https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/duranke01.html

He ranges from 2.2 (16-17) to 3.9 (current season) turnovers per game, with quite a few at 3.5. So yes, some of it is unfamiliarity (him and Nurkic have had at least 1 or 2 miscues a game) but he's never been a rock taking care of the ball.
 

AzStevenCal

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Don't know about 'unforced', but looking at his history, he's always been turnover prone: https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/duranke01.html

He ranges from 2.2 (16-17) to 3.9 (current season) turnovers per game, with quite a few at 3.5. So yes, some of it is unfamiliarity (him and Nurkic have had at least 1 or 2 miscues a game) but he's never been a rock taking care of the ball.
Last night his turnovers were about as unforced as they come. It seemed like it was one casual errant pass after another. When that happens every now and then, it's no big deal. Or when it happens from the passer trying to thread the needle to enable an easy score, it's no big deal. When it happens that often and with no real benefit to the pass had it worked, it's concerning. Fortunately he makes up for those passes in other ways but you're still giving up a lot if you're simply throwing the ball away like that.
 

Superbone

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Last night his turnovers were about as unforced as they come. It seemed like it was one casual errant pass after another. When that happens every now and then, it's no big deal. Or when it happens from the passer trying to thread the needle to enable an easy score, it's no big deal. When it happens that often and with no real benefit to the pass had it worked, it's concerning. Fortunately he makes up for those passes in other ways but you're still giving up a lot if you're simply throwing the ball away like that.
I remember at least a couple times where he was double and tripled teamed and that’s what caused the turnovers.
 

clyde2tw

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I remember at least a couple times where he was double and tripled teamed and that’s what caused the turnovers.
Picking from behind by swarming KD, like the one by KeldonJ of the 1st loss to Spurs, and causual dribbling through traffic are the main cause for his TOs.
 

Proximo

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How is that, do tell?
seriously? I guess you haven’t watched the games.

throwing the ball to him 20 feet from the rim and letting him get doubled turning the ball over at a very high rate is not exactly what efficient offensive basketball looks like.
 

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KD is extremely efficient and a hooper, no doubt about it, but he seems to go at the same pace whether he's wide open, single covered, double or triple teamed. He always looks like he's playing a pick up. The game is just easy for him and I'm not doubting his drive or effort because his talent is undeniable. If there's one knock on him though is he doesn't seem to have that extra gear or at least I haven't seen it. He doesn't need it because he's so good he can drop 30-7-7 while shooting 65% but what separates him from being this generations GOAT is that killer mentality. He's happy winning and doesn't like losing but he doesn't hate losing like MJ or Kobe did. He's more talented than LeBron but what makes LeBron better overall is that extra "F you" gene where he wants to silence doubters and critics.

It's not an Ayton situation where he lacks a competitive drive, he just lacks that "win at all costs" mentality. That's why he and Westbrook worked well together. Russ had that while KD had the talent to get them in position to win at the end. Booker has a drive like that, I think, where he hates losing and wants to shut people up. So I have hope that Booker and KD can carry this team. I just wish KD had a little more of that assassin in him. That's what separates the greats from the GOATs though.
 

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seriously? I guess you haven’t watched the games.

throwing the ball to him 20 feet from the rim and letting him get doubled turning the ball over at a very high rate is not exactly what efficient offensive basketball looks like.
Not called for…
 
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Mainstreet

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What I particularly dislike is the Suns turning the ball over up high which leads to easy baskets.

They pass way too much laterally in this area of the court.
 

GatorAZ

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KD is extremely efficient and a hooper, no doubt about it, but he seems to go at the same pace whether he's wide open, single covered, double or triple teamed. He always looks like he's playing a pick up. The game is just easy for him and I'm not doubting his drive or effort because his talent is undeniable. If there's one knock on him though is he doesn't seem to have that extra gear or at least I haven't seen it. He doesn't need it because he's so good he can drop 30-7-7 while shooting 65% but what separates him from being this generations GOAT is that killer mentality. He's happy winning and doesn't like losing but he doesn't hate losing like MJ or Kobe did. He's more talented than LeBron but what makes LeBron better overall is that extra "F you" gene where he wants to silence doubters and critics.

It's not an Ayton situation where he lacks a competitive drive, he just lacks that "win at all costs" mentality. That's why he and Westbrook worked well together. Russ had that while KD had the talent to get them in position to win at the end. Booker has a drive like that, I think, where he hates losing and wants to shut people up. So I have hope that Booker and KD can carry this team. I just wish KD had a little more of that assassin in him. That's what separates the greats from the GOATs though.

KD is a better shot maker than Lebron but he’s not more talented. Lebron is a top-3 player all time and can do things in his prime that KD was never capable of like elite ball-handling and passing. He couldn’t been an elite TE or DE in the NFL with his combination of size and explosiveness.

I agree that KD isn’t an apex alpha unless it’s a situation where everything around him is perfect like Golden St. it’s the difference between him being top-10 all time vs top-20.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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KD is a better shot maker than Lebron but he’s not more talented. Lebron is a top-3 player all time and can do things in his prime that KD was never capable of like elite ball-handling and passing. He couldn’t been an elite TE or DE in the NFL with his combination of size and explosiveness.

I agree that KD isn’t an apex alpha unless it’s a situation where everything around him is perfect like Golden St. it’s the difference between him being top-10 all time vs top-20.
It’s an interesting conversation. I get what people are saying about KD. Not sure I agree with it, but I get the argument.

I tried to think of teams that had two true alpha personalities. I think the following

Magic/kareem
Lebron/wade
Pierce/KG
Kobe/shaq (slightly question shaq, but getting by his goofiness, that dude wanted to dominate)
Duncan/kawhi(?)

But I don’t think pippen was that guy. I don’t think Akeem had that guy. Street clothes ain’t that guy. I don’t think klay/draymond were talented enough to be considered one of those guys. Neither were Parker/ginobili imo.
 

djm75

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Yeah, it's tough to say he isn't being utilized effectively when he is averaging 31 points on 65% true shooting.
The fact that he has enough skill to hit a contested three does not mean he’s utilized effectively. Neither does throwing him the ball and hoping he singlehandedly outplays the whole opponent team. Running set plays to get him wide open looks would be a big step in that direction though. I’m sure that would increase his avg points and true shooting percentage even more, or at least it would allow him to maintain current numbers with less effort and/or in less minutes, which is good for keeping him healthy. Right now the Suns are running him into ground making him play 36+ minutes.
 

CardsSunsDbacks

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The fact that he has enough skill to hit a contested three does not mean he’s utilized effectively. Neither does throwing him the ball and hoping he singlehandedly outplays the whole opponent team. Running set plays to get him wide open looks would be a big step in that direction though. I’m sure that would increase his avg points and true shooting percentage even more, or at least it would allow him to maintain current numbers with less effort and/or in less minutes, which is good for keeping him healthy. Right now the Suns are running him into ground making him play 36+ minutes.
You don't score 31 points per game on 65% true shooting while being used improperly. The shots he is taking is largely who he is as a player and largely who he has to be because of the attention he garners from the other team. They even leave Booker to double KD. That should tell you everything you need to know about how much the other team is trying to take him out of the game and yet he is still putting up ridiculous numbers.
 

Proximo

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I'm with you essay - Suns have been using KD just fine - I mean he's only 2nd in the league for points per game - damn near hits a triple double every game - and he's the biggest reason we're above .500 right now
That can all be true, and he is still not being used correctly, and in this case it is.
 

BirdGangThing

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That can all be true, and he is still not being used correctly, and in this case it is.
First of all this is an opinion thing - not a correct or incorrect thing

Truth is KD is playing better than a lot people thought he still could - present company included - and if having your (only available) superstar carry your team is misusing them - then every coach in the history of the NBA is guilty of the misusage you speak of
 

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The composition of lineups Vogel tried out has not been quite right. He played Yuta and Goodwin a bit too much and Little and Okogie too little. Yuta's offensive production has been mediocre to justify his negative impact on defense. Goodwin's been really bad as a ball handler, and his 3pt % is down. Okogie when not shooting 3s has really strong positive impact with his hustle plays that gain additional possessions for us. After this Blazers game, the bench rotation should be limited to JO, KBD, Little and Eubanks for the time being.
Also, they showed the tendency to let the other team's hot hands open for too long, and generally quite chaotic with repositioning, due to lack of attention after scrumbles. Book, EG, Allen, Little all guilty of that. That's main reason we give up the lead too easily too often.
 

1982baskets

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Team is now 5-1 in Book/Durant games. More, in the 4 games since Book has been back, the team has had the highest offense rating of any team in the league in that stretch.


They could use some defensive upgrades, or pray that Vogel's schemes begin to click later in the season.
 
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