Once again I thinik Vince Tobin gets raked over the coals a little too harshly. I'm wondering how many of those who are dissing him so much were really following the team during his tenure, and even before, during the Buddy era.
Very similarly, I wonder about some of those who are dissing Greisen so much and using him as example of how inept Tobin was at drafting.
As Russ brought up, Fergy had a big influence on the Cards draft in those days.
Here's how I remember things (assisted with some memory enhancing references):
1996...... In two year's ('94-95) Buddy Ryan has messed up just about every aspect of the Cards that can be imagined. Bill Bidwill sends Buddy packing, the franchisee, to me, essentially hits its rock bottom. Buddy has not only screwed up the team itself, but in so doing, burns Bidwill's atempt at "finally" experimenting with relinquishing some power.
Bidwill then hires Vince Tobin as HC and Bob Ferguson as GM. Ferguson coming to the Cards after establishing a great reputation with 11 years in Buffalo and Denver where he helped build 6 superbowl teams in those 11 years.
Tobin was never known to be a big "motivator" per se. He was considered a sharp, no-nonsense coach. This is where I think a lot of people overlook the good things that he did do. First of all I think he brought a much needed stability to the organization. He was behind the 8-ball from the start. What a mess he inherited. Ryan had destroyed the offense, the defense....Buddy's "specialty", wasn't bad, but team chemistry was non-existant, in typical Buddy style the defense hated the offense who mirrored it right back, the team was in salary cap hell, and Ryan's drafting had not exactly set the world on fire, to say the least.
94 - (1) Jamir Miller-LB, (2) Chuck Levy-RB (3) Rich Braham-G (3) Eric England-DE/DT (4) Perry Carter-CB (4) John Reece- CB/FS (4)Terry Irving-LB (5) Anthony Redmon-T (6) Terry Samuels-TE (7) Frank Harvey-FB
95- (2) Frank Sanders-WR (3) Stoney Case-QB (5) Cedric Davis-DB (5) Lance Scott -C (5) Tito Paul- CB (6) Anthony Bridges-CB (7) Billy Williams-WR (7) Wesley Lesley-LB (7) Chad Eaton-DT
About the only available, decent avenue remaining was to cinch up the belt for the long haul, assemble what was reputed to be a good "teaching" staff, and build for the future, primarily through the draft. There just wasn't much of any other way to go at the time.
I think Tobin started out fine. He hired Jim Fassel as OC and Mac as DC. Tobin was reportedly given a lot of influence in the draft , but essentially Fergy was to be the man there, and take over the front office duties. Tobins staff additionally consists of: Geep Chryst-TE/quality control; Al Everest-ST; Joe Greene-DL, Larry Marmie-DB; Carl Mauck-OL, Glenn Pires-LB, Vic Rapp-WR and Jim Skipper-RB.
With very limited funds Tobin/Fergy are able to land free agents Boomer Esiason and Lomas Brown.
they then draft:
(1) Simeon Rice-DE (2) Leeland McElroy-RB (3) Johnny McWilliams-TE (4) Aaron Graham-C (5) James Dexter-T (5) Harry Stamps-T (5) Dell McGee-CB (6) Mike Foley-DT (7) Jarius Hayes-TE
Now granted, in retrospect this doesn't look too good on papar. But I think a closer look really shows that , at the time, the first 6 picks were really not "dumb" picks, especially at the time. McWilliams was highly rated at the time, Graham was undersized but did become a starter, and Dexter looked like a great pick at the time.
The one big negative here was allowing Garrison Hearst to leave and sign with the 49ers. This seemed to be the resut of (A) there being some question as to how well Hurst might be able to come back from his injury and (B) the salary cap hell Buddy had put the team in. This to me is more of a front office move than anything Tobin had much to do with. In essentially full rebuild mode, Larry Centers was still Mr. Cardinal at the time at FB and in his prime with Speedsters LeShon Johnson and Leeland McElroy to vie for the RB pos. Johnson was actually showing some nice promise at that point.
The team started 0-3 but then finished 7-6 from there out.
Going into 1997. Tobin, which I'm sure was at the recommendation of Fassel, named Kent Graham, whom Fassel (Fassel meanwhile being hired away by the Giants to become their head coach)had developed in N.Y. as the starter, creating a very unhappy Boomer who is let go. I thnk also partially due to the Cards drafting Jake Plummer.
The stated strategy of the team at that time, still cap strapped, is to sign lesser known veteran free agents, using them primarily as practice players to show some of the hopefully up and coming youngsters "how its done"...as Lee Shappel said then.
The '97 draft consists of; (1) Tom Knight -CB (2) Jake Plummer-QB (3) Ty Howard-CB (4) Chris Dishman-G (5) Chad Carpenter -WR (6) Rod Brown-FB (6) Tony McCombs-LB (7) Mark Smith-DE
I don't think this was a bad draft, by any means. Howard never did anything but I have to say....for the last 3 round picks those weren't bad for where they were taken...at all. I also think its very unrealistic to expect the team to have been able to predict the injury problems that would haunt Knight his entire "career".
Then Tobin makes what I consider to be his first major mistake. He hires Dick Jamieson as OC to replace Fassel. UGH.! Bad, Bad move. Jamieson was a conservative, not very imaginative, run oriented coach, a total mis-match to the talents of the offensive players on the team.
Not all that surprisingly the team goes 4-12. Grahm is injured and Jake plays the last 10 games of the season ....Tobin then heads into '98 with frustration at years of losing building in the fans. A lot of people are starting to say this year could make or break Tobin. Tobin is ordered by Bidwill to fire Jamieson, which he does, and in a move fairly poplular at the time, hires Marc Trestman to replace him. Trestman comes in with a reputation of being one of the new young west coast guru's. Many think this might be a good combo with Jake now the starter and Graham let go to the Giants, and back to his old mentor.
Free agency movement is fairly active...with a mixed bag of events. My takes on some of the "bigger' ones:
Signed - Mario Bates (good); Dave Brown (over all, OK, decent for the role he's expected to play 'clipboard carrier behind Jake); Lester Holmes....UGH...you sure Buddy didn't do this? Mike Maddox-LB (good); Eric Metcalf KR/WR...seemingly good at the time, but ends up nothing to write home about. and Adrian Murrell-RB...which proves to be a great move.
On the other side of the coin losses are: Brent Alexander-S (nothing earth shattering); Michael Bankston (would have liked to kept him; Jeff Feagles-P (seemingly bad at the time. but turned out OK); Kent Graham (no real loss); Eric Hill -LB....OUCH! this one hurt. Anthony Redmon (not good, Redmon seemed to be legitimately up and coming.; Kevin Williams ( I never did understand this one).
Fergy probably has his best year as a Card. He trades the #2 pickto San Diego for picks that become Andre Wadsworth and Corey Chavous, plus Eric Metcalf and linebacker Patrick Sapp, along with the Chargers 1999 1st round pick. On a roll, he then traded a 3rd round pick to the Jets for Adrian Murrell plus a 7th round pick, which became promising DE Jomo Cousins.
The draft = (1) Andre Wadsworth-DE (2) Corey Chavous (2) Anthony Clement-T (4) Michael Pittman-RB (5) Terry Hardy -TE (6) Zack Waltz-LB (7) Phil Savoy-WR (7) Jomo Cousins-DE (7) Pat Tillman-S (7) Ron James-RB
The rest is history, as they say, as the Cards go on to have their best year in recent history. Beating Dallas in the first round of the Playoffs (their first playoff win since 1947) before getting their butts kicked by Minnesota 41-21.
In 1999, Tobin continues with his philosophy of primarily trying to find good, young talented players, develop them, and keep them. But this is the year the wheels start to fall off. Just when they seem to be getting out of salary cap hell, Bidwill, in what I call a calculated move to change his image, and bolster the drive for a new stadium goes from one extreme to the other and overpays Jake resigning him to a figure more than probably even Jake and his agent can believe. This starts a cascade of negative events. Other veterans start grousing a little over what THEY are paid, but there isn't much left in the cupboard. Jamir Miller leaves for the Browns ih a huff. Fergy brain farts in his handling of Mark Smith.
In one of the few good free agency moves Rod Fredrickson is signed from the Lions. However FA losses are big. Joining Miller in the exodus are: Lomas Brown Anthony Edwards, Eric Metcalf, and 5 other "lesser" known players.
The Draft = (1 ) David Boston-WR (1) L J Shelton (2) Johnny Rutledge-LB (3) Tom Burke (DE) (4) Joel Mackovicka-FB (5) Paris Johnson-SS (5) Yusef Scott-G (6) Coby Rhinehart-CB (6) Melvin Bradley (DE/LB) (6) Dennis McKinley-FB (7) Chris Greisen-QB
Again, overall, I would say this was a decent draft. Rutledge was just potential that flopped. Burke was a high energy speed rusher in college, but just never was able to make the transition to the pro game. And to answer a query or two about the Tobin/Greisen connection...it was Southwest Missouri State, where Tobin was from. But I really don't think that had anything to do with drafting him. No one was looking for a potential relacement for Jake at that point. Greisen didn't have to have a great arm for the offense the Cards were then running. They were not a typically deep-throwing team at that point. Greisen didn't light anything up while he was here, but I think people are also over-blowing how "bad" he was too. Like Parsons, now, he really never got a real shot in real time situations to prove one way or the other what he might or might not be able to do.
I don't think the loss of either will ever rate high up on the priority list of make or break moves the Cards ever made. But the bashing of Greisen, that I can can see, or remember is not justified either.
If you look at the QB's drafted in '99. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/1999/nfldraft/breakdowns/by_position/QB.html I think you should see drafting him was not such a terrible, terrible move.
Coupled with some injuries, primarily to Wadsworth , the once great DL vanished like a $100 tip in a seedy bar. Simeon's head became even bigger than the Cards armpit, and he forsook any defense except sack attempts. Smith pouted and underperformed, (injured also, I believe), And Swann was unhappy with swiss chess and scar knees.
Trestman, Jake and the Cards seemed to mix about like oil and water.
There were a lot of things to grouse about , about that point.
Not surpisingly the team finished 6-10
Going into 2000, Tobin uncharacteristically asked for a contract extension but was turned down by Bidwill.
Free agency-wise here is where I personally think the real corner was turned in this organization with the signing of free agent Mike Gruttadauria from the superbowl champion Rams. To me that was where we actually started to see the "new way of doing things" in the front office.
The draft that year = (1) Thomas Jones-RB (2) Raynoch Thompson-LB (3) Darwin Walker-DT (4) David Barrett-CB (5) Mao Tosi-DT (5) Jay Tant -TE (6) Jabari Issa-DT (7) Sekou Sanyika-LB
Once more, I think this was a decent draft. TJ's misdiagnosed lung problem got him started off on the wrong foot, I think, and he never did seem comfortable here. Walker's head was self-admittedly in the wrong place, and when that's the case, all the coaching in the world may be to no avail (see David Boston!). Tosi, Tant, Issa, and Sanyka were decent picks considering where they were taken.
By now the former impressive D-line was no more. The offense seemed to have potential ubt Trestman was having trouble making it work. Then came that 7th game in Dallas. What I call another low point in Card's history, when it looked like the team just gave up and packed it in. Tobin got the axe and Mac finished out the year as HC.
I don't dispute Bidwill firing Tobin when he did. Something had to be done. But in many ways I kind of think Tobin not only fell on the sword, but Bidwill kind of twisted it too. Tobin brought stability when it was sorely needed. He essentially did what he was asked to do. To build a team with youth through the draft with little freedom or money to spend. He made moves that seemed to put the teams concern especially on a long term basis, ahead of his own agenda....and he got his legs chopped out from under him for it, in the end. Yes, I think he'd lost a lot of control by that fateful Dallas game, some of it not of his own doing. Could he have done better.....yeah maybe....but to rank on him like so many seem so easily inclined to do, to me, doesn't show a whole lot of understanding of the true dynamics of this team through those years.
Very similarly, I wonder about some of those who are dissing Greisen so much and using him as example of how inept Tobin was at drafting.
As Russ brought up, Fergy had a big influence on the Cards draft in those days.
Here's how I remember things (assisted with some memory enhancing references):
1996...... In two year's ('94-95) Buddy Ryan has messed up just about every aspect of the Cards that can be imagined. Bill Bidwill sends Buddy packing, the franchisee, to me, essentially hits its rock bottom. Buddy has not only screwed up the team itself, but in so doing, burns Bidwill's atempt at "finally" experimenting with relinquishing some power.
Bidwill then hires Vince Tobin as HC and Bob Ferguson as GM. Ferguson coming to the Cards after establishing a great reputation with 11 years in Buffalo and Denver where he helped build 6 superbowl teams in those 11 years.
Tobin was never known to be a big "motivator" per se. He was considered a sharp, no-nonsense coach. This is where I think a lot of people overlook the good things that he did do. First of all I think he brought a much needed stability to the organization. He was behind the 8-ball from the start. What a mess he inherited. Ryan had destroyed the offense, the defense....Buddy's "specialty", wasn't bad, but team chemistry was non-existant, in typical Buddy style the defense hated the offense who mirrored it right back, the team was in salary cap hell, and Ryan's drafting had not exactly set the world on fire, to say the least.
94 - (1) Jamir Miller-LB, (2) Chuck Levy-RB (3) Rich Braham-G (3) Eric England-DE/DT (4) Perry Carter-CB (4) John Reece- CB/FS (4)Terry Irving-LB (5) Anthony Redmon-T (6) Terry Samuels-TE (7) Frank Harvey-FB
95- (2) Frank Sanders-WR (3) Stoney Case-QB (5) Cedric Davis-DB (5) Lance Scott -C (5) Tito Paul- CB (6) Anthony Bridges-CB (7) Billy Williams-WR (7) Wesley Lesley-LB (7) Chad Eaton-DT
About the only available, decent avenue remaining was to cinch up the belt for the long haul, assemble what was reputed to be a good "teaching" staff, and build for the future, primarily through the draft. There just wasn't much of any other way to go at the time.
I think Tobin started out fine. He hired Jim Fassel as OC and Mac as DC. Tobin was reportedly given a lot of influence in the draft , but essentially Fergy was to be the man there, and take over the front office duties. Tobins staff additionally consists of: Geep Chryst-TE/quality control; Al Everest-ST; Joe Greene-DL, Larry Marmie-DB; Carl Mauck-OL, Glenn Pires-LB, Vic Rapp-WR and Jim Skipper-RB.
With very limited funds Tobin/Fergy are able to land free agents Boomer Esiason and Lomas Brown.
they then draft:
(1) Simeon Rice-DE (2) Leeland McElroy-RB (3) Johnny McWilliams-TE (4) Aaron Graham-C (5) James Dexter-T (5) Harry Stamps-T (5) Dell McGee-CB (6) Mike Foley-DT (7) Jarius Hayes-TE
Now granted, in retrospect this doesn't look too good on papar. But I think a closer look really shows that , at the time, the first 6 picks were really not "dumb" picks, especially at the time. McWilliams was highly rated at the time, Graham was undersized but did become a starter, and Dexter looked like a great pick at the time.
The one big negative here was allowing Garrison Hearst to leave and sign with the 49ers. This seemed to be the resut of (A) there being some question as to how well Hurst might be able to come back from his injury and (B) the salary cap hell Buddy had put the team in. This to me is more of a front office move than anything Tobin had much to do with. In essentially full rebuild mode, Larry Centers was still Mr. Cardinal at the time at FB and in his prime with Speedsters LeShon Johnson and Leeland McElroy to vie for the RB pos. Johnson was actually showing some nice promise at that point.
The team started 0-3 but then finished 7-6 from there out.
Going into 1997. Tobin, which I'm sure was at the recommendation of Fassel, named Kent Graham, whom Fassel (Fassel meanwhile being hired away by the Giants to become their head coach)had developed in N.Y. as the starter, creating a very unhappy Boomer who is let go. I thnk also partially due to the Cards drafting Jake Plummer.
The stated strategy of the team at that time, still cap strapped, is to sign lesser known veteran free agents, using them primarily as practice players to show some of the hopefully up and coming youngsters "how its done"...as Lee Shappel said then.
The '97 draft consists of; (1) Tom Knight -CB (2) Jake Plummer-QB (3) Ty Howard-CB (4) Chris Dishman-G (5) Chad Carpenter -WR (6) Rod Brown-FB (6) Tony McCombs-LB (7) Mark Smith-DE
I don't think this was a bad draft, by any means. Howard never did anything but I have to say....for the last 3 round picks those weren't bad for where they were taken...at all. I also think its very unrealistic to expect the team to have been able to predict the injury problems that would haunt Knight his entire "career".
Then Tobin makes what I consider to be his first major mistake. He hires Dick Jamieson as OC to replace Fassel. UGH.! Bad, Bad move. Jamieson was a conservative, not very imaginative, run oriented coach, a total mis-match to the talents of the offensive players on the team.
Not all that surprisingly the team goes 4-12. Grahm is injured and Jake plays the last 10 games of the season ....Tobin then heads into '98 with frustration at years of losing building in the fans. A lot of people are starting to say this year could make or break Tobin. Tobin is ordered by Bidwill to fire Jamieson, which he does, and in a move fairly poplular at the time, hires Marc Trestman to replace him. Trestman comes in with a reputation of being one of the new young west coast guru's. Many think this might be a good combo with Jake now the starter and Graham let go to the Giants, and back to his old mentor.
Free agency movement is fairly active...with a mixed bag of events. My takes on some of the "bigger' ones:
Signed - Mario Bates (good); Dave Brown (over all, OK, decent for the role he's expected to play 'clipboard carrier behind Jake); Lester Holmes....UGH...you sure Buddy didn't do this? Mike Maddox-LB (good); Eric Metcalf KR/WR...seemingly good at the time, but ends up nothing to write home about. and Adrian Murrell-RB...which proves to be a great move.
On the other side of the coin losses are: Brent Alexander-S (nothing earth shattering); Michael Bankston (would have liked to kept him; Jeff Feagles-P (seemingly bad at the time. but turned out OK); Kent Graham (no real loss); Eric Hill -LB....OUCH! this one hurt. Anthony Redmon (not good, Redmon seemed to be legitimately up and coming.; Kevin Williams ( I never did understand this one).
Fergy probably has his best year as a Card. He trades the #2 pickto San Diego for picks that become Andre Wadsworth and Corey Chavous, plus Eric Metcalf and linebacker Patrick Sapp, along with the Chargers 1999 1st round pick. On a roll, he then traded a 3rd round pick to the Jets for Adrian Murrell plus a 7th round pick, which became promising DE Jomo Cousins.
The draft = (1) Andre Wadsworth-DE (2) Corey Chavous (2) Anthony Clement-T (4) Michael Pittman-RB (5) Terry Hardy -TE (6) Zack Waltz-LB (7) Phil Savoy-WR (7) Jomo Cousins-DE (7) Pat Tillman-S (7) Ron James-RB
The rest is history, as they say, as the Cards go on to have their best year in recent history. Beating Dallas in the first round of the Playoffs (their first playoff win since 1947) before getting their butts kicked by Minnesota 41-21.
In 1999, Tobin continues with his philosophy of primarily trying to find good, young talented players, develop them, and keep them. But this is the year the wheels start to fall off. Just when they seem to be getting out of salary cap hell, Bidwill, in what I call a calculated move to change his image, and bolster the drive for a new stadium goes from one extreme to the other and overpays Jake resigning him to a figure more than probably even Jake and his agent can believe. This starts a cascade of negative events. Other veterans start grousing a little over what THEY are paid, but there isn't much left in the cupboard. Jamir Miller leaves for the Browns ih a huff. Fergy brain farts in his handling of Mark Smith.
In one of the few good free agency moves Rod Fredrickson is signed from the Lions. However FA losses are big. Joining Miller in the exodus are: Lomas Brown Anthony Edwards, Eric Metcalf, and 5 other "lesser" known players.
The Draft = (1 ) David Boston-WR (1) L J Shelton (2) Johnny Rutledge-LB (3) Tom Burke (DE) (4) Joel Mackovicka-FB (5) Paris Johnson-SS (5) Yusef Scott-G (6) Coby Rhinehart-CB (6) Melvin Bradley (DE/LB) (6) Dennis McKinley-FB (7) Chris Greisen-QB
Again, overall, I would say this was a decent draft. Rutledge was just potential that flopped. Burke was a high energy speed rusher in college, but just never was able to make the transition to the pro game. And to answer a query or two about the Tobin/Greisen connection...it was Southwest Missouri State, where Tobin was from. But I really don't think that had anything to do with drafting him. No one was looking for a potential relacement for Jake at that point. Greisen didn't have to have a great arm for the offense the Cards were then running. They were not a typically deep-throwing team at that point. Greisen didn't light anything up while he was here, but I think people are also over-blowing how "bad" he was too. Like Parsons, now, he really never got a real shot in real time situations to prove one way or the other what he might or might not be able to do.
I don't think the loss of either will ever rate high up on the priority list of make or break moves the Cards ever made. But the bashing of Greisen, that I can can see, or remember is not justified either.
If you look at the QB's drafted in '99. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/1999/nfldraft/breakdowns/by_position/QB.html I think you should see drafting him was not such a terrible, terrible move.
Coupled with some injuries, primarily to Wadsworth , the once great DL vanished like a $100 tip in a seedy bar. Simeon's head became even bigger than the Cards armpit, and he forsook any defense except sack attempts. Smith pouted and underperformed, (injured also, I believe), And Swann was unhappy with swiss chess and scar knees.
Trestman, Jake and the Cards seemed to mix about like oil and water.
There were a lot of things to grouse about , about that point.
Not surpisingly the team finished 6-10
Going into 2000, Tobin uncharacteristically asked for a contract extension but was turned down by Bidwill.
Free agency-wise here is where I personally think the real corner was turned in this organization with the signing of free agent Mike Gruttadauria from the superbowl champion Rams. To me that was where we actually started to see the "new way of doing things" in the front office.
The draft that year = (1) Thomas Jones-RB (2) Raynoch Thompson-LB (3) Darwin Walker-DT (4) David Barrett-CB (5) Mao Tosi-DT (5) Jay Tant -TE (6) Jabari Issa-DT (7) Sekou Sanyika-LB
Once more, I think this was a decent draft. TJ's misdiagnosed lung problem got him started off on the wrong foot, I think, and he never did seem comfortable here. Walker's head was self-admittedly in the wrong place, and when that's the case, all the coaching in the world may be to no avail (see David Boston!). Tosi, Tant, Issa, and Sanyka were decent picks considering where they were taken.
By now the former impressive D-line was no more. The offense seemed to have potential ubt Trestman was having trouble making it work. Then came that 7th game in Dallas. What I call another low point in Card's history, when it looked like the team just gave up and packed it in. Tobin got the axe and Mac finished out the year as HC.
I don't dispute Bidwill firing Tobin when he did. Something had to be done. But in many ways I kind of think Tobin not only fell on the sword, but Bidwill kind of twisted it too. Tobin brought stability when it was sorely needed. He essentially did what he was asked to do. To build a team with youth through the draft with little freedom or money to spend. He made moves that seemed to put the teams concern especially on a long term basis, ahead of his own agenda....and he got his legs chopped out from under him for it, in the end. Yes, I think he'd lost a lot of control by that fateful Dallas game, some of it not of his own doing. Could he have done better.....yeah maybe....but to rank on him like so many seem so easily inclined to do, to me, doesn't show a whole lot of understanding of the true dynamics of this team through those years.
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Tobin did do a nice job, Griesen did look good in preseason as well, he's not as bad as people make him out to be. When you look at guys like Knight, Jones and Wadsworth, it was just very bad luck. Thomas Jones could have been Jamal Lewis, Wadsworth could have been C Woodson or panned out into a great DE. If that would have happened this team would have really turned the corner. Tobin wasn't nearly as horrible as Coach Mac. Tobin was as likeable as Mac, but he did build a playoff team out of Ryans rubble and salary cap hell. 
