Seahawks at Cardinals gameday thread 9-25-25

Chopper0080

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So you either didn't watch the video or you're just ignoring what Warner actually said.

He clearly said Wilson was supposed to break off his route and stop in the open area to give Kyler a hot read throw to beat the free runnning blitzer from his left who I think is Witherspoon(?). Because he didn't do that, the entire play breaks down, Kyler has to bail right to buy time to throw, and then again Wilson doesn't do what hes' supposed to do which is help his QB and instead he keeps running progressively deeper making the throw harder.

The reason Wilson doesn't catch the ball is he ran the route too deep and then couldn't get back. Yes it's not a perfect throw but the point is Wilson is supposed to HELP the QB there and he did everything wrong from literally the snap.

If you watched the video Warner is VERY clear on that.
Sure. The issue is that Kyler is telling his WRs these things and neither is the coaching staff apparently. When your QB can't explain expectations to his WRs, it is these type of things that happen. What work is Kyler putting in with these guys if they don't understand what he expects them to do after multiple years together? Depth of route. Players to target. What he wants to see in a scramble drill. Adjustments based on pressure or coverage. All of these are on ultimately on the QB to work out with his WRs. Yes, the coaching staff should also be doing this, but the offense starts and ends with the QB. If he can't explain to players and coaches what he wants and expects, none of it is going to work. That is what it is to be a NFL QB.
 

Russ Smith

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Brady was talking about in a scramble drill he told his WRs "just go deep". I wonder if Wilson saw the scramble and angled his route when Kyler was just trying to hit him on his current path.

However you want to dice it, when almost every WR is miscommunicating with the QB, some of it is on the QB. Just another issue Kyler has to overcome. His WRs have no idea what he is going to do with the ball at times.

Warner makes that point on the first INT he said it's 50/50. Marv quit on the route and ran a poor route to begin with, but he also may have thought Kyler was going to run and it's difficult for him to know if he is or not so it was one of those things that can happen.

There's another play in the game where Kyler throws backshoulder to the right to marv who runs downfield incomplete. Warner points out Wilson is running a "mirror route" on the left and Wilson breaks off his route so he said I conclude from that Marv ran the wrong route. Later in the game on a similar play he said Wilson did NOT break off his mirror route so my guess is Kyler threw the wrong ball on that one.

The main point over and over is Warner is pointing out the receivers don't seem to grasp the entire concept of the play, they may know their part but they don't understand what everyone else is doing and more importantly WHY. The one guy who does, is Trey McBride and that's why he's Kylers' favorite receiver, he is the guy who is always where Kyler expects him to be, when he expects him to be there
 

Russ Smith

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Sure. The issue is that Kyler is telling his WRs these things and neither is the coaching staff apparently. When your QB can't explain expectations to his WRs, it is these type of things that happen. What work is Kyler putting in with these guys if they don't understand what he expects them to do after multiple years together? Depth of route. Players to target. What he wants to see in a scramble drill. Adjustments based on pressure or coverage. All of these are on ultimately on the QB to work out with his WRs. Yes, the coaching staff should also be doing this, but the offense starts and ends with the QB. If he can't explain to players and coaches what he wants and expects, none of it is going to work. That is what it is to be a NFL QB.


how can you conclude from that play that Kyler didn't tell Wilson what to do? If he comes off the field yelling at Wilson for the route he ran everyone is calling him a bad leader. They didn't show us the sideline we have no idea if they talked after it.

Yes Kyler didn't get a ton on the throw there are clearly QB's like Allen or Mahomes with stronger arms who can get that ball down to Wilson, but Wilson is supposed to be helping his QB

it was a big play early in the game. If Wilson reads the blitz correctly he's wide open, Kurt literally drew a huge oval in the field where Wilson should have been it's an easy first down. That would have moved the sticks and got the first drive off on the right foot.
 

Chopper0080

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how can you conclude from that play that Kyler didn't tell Wilson what to do? If he comes off the field yelling at Wilson for the route he ran everyone is calling him a bad leader. They didn't show us the sideline we have no idea if they talked after it.

Yes Kyler didn't get a ton on the throw there are clearly QB's like Allen or Mahomes with stronger arms who can get that ball down to Wilson, but Wilson is supposed to be helping his QB

it was a big play early in the game. If Wilson reads the blitz correctly he's wide open, Kurt literally drew a huge oval in the field where Wilson should have been it's an easy first down. That would have moved the sticks and got the first drive off on the right foot.
Because week after week and year after year there are issues with Kyler and WRs not being on the same page. Wilson isn't a dumb player. MHJ isn't a dumb player. Hopkins wasn't a dumb player. Neither was AJ Green or Fitzgerald. WRs aren't challenging the QB on what he sees and wants. They are just trying to do what the QB wants so they get the ball.

In regards to the Wilson play, there are two things.

1 - Has Kyler never contemplated a blitz out of that coverage before, and communicated what he wants from his WRs when it happens?

2 - When Kyler leaves the pocket, has he not told his WRs what he wants from them when he does. Whether it's Brady's "just go deep" or if it is stay on your path doesn't really matter. In at least two instances in this game, Kyler leaves the pocket, and the WR does something different than what he seems to think they will do. MHJ to be stopping to move back in the direction Kyler is scrambling and Murray throws on path, and Wilson angles his route deeper and Kyler throws on path. Kyler leaves the pocket a lot so this should be something that was hammered out a while ago but hasn't been. That's on the QB.
 

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So you either didn't watch the video or you're just ignoring what Warner actually said.

He clearly said Wilson was supposed to break off his route and stop in the open area to give Kyler a hot read throw to beat the free runnning blitzer from his left who I think is Witherspoon(?). Because he didn't do that, the entire play breaks down, Kyler has to bail right to buy time to throw, and then again Wilson doesn't do what hes' supposed to do which is help his QB and instead he keeps running progressively deeper making the throw harder.

The reason Wilson doesn't catch the ball is he ran the route too deep and then couldn't get back. Yes it's not a perfect throw but the point is Wilson is supposed to HELP the QB there and he did everything wrong from literally the snap.

If you watched the video Warner is VERY clear on that.

I didn't watch the video?

He didn't say that at all. If anything he said that knowing that there is a free rusher coming that Kyler should audible to tell Mike to run a hot route. He said "We'd call a sight adjust", well that's on the QB. He says that blitzing DB is the quarterbacks responsibility and he should be calling an audible for Wilson to sit.
 
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SoonerLou

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It's a lollipop under pressure. Wilson is open enough where you just need the completion. A play several Qbs threw yesterday that other teams wrs had no problem catching.

We can talk about what he wants/prefers. However, for Wilson what if he's hit. What if its tipped. A year 3 NFL wr should be able to make those kind of catches.

If Kyler floated it on a line I'd get it.
 
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BritCard

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Warner makes that point on the first INT he said it's 50/50. Marv quit on the route and ran a poor route to begin with, but he also may have thought Kyler was going to run and it's difficult for him to know if he is or not so it was one of those things that can happen.

There's another play in the game where Kyler throws backshoulder to the right to marv who runs downfield incomplete. Warner points out Wilson is running a "mirror route" on the left and Wilson breaks off his route so he said I conclude from that Marv ran the wrong route. Later in the game on a similar play he said Wilson did NOT break off his mirror route so my guess is Kyler threw the wrong ball on that one.

The main point over and over is Warner is pointing out the receivers don't seem to grasp the entire concept of the play, they may know their part but they don't understand what everyone else is doing and more importantly WHY. The one guy who does, is Trey McBride and that's why he's Kylers' favorite receiver, he is the guy who is always where Kyler expects him to be, when he expects him to be there

Warner was clear to point out that he was guessing, that he doesn't know. But he also said on that route that in his day if you hot the CB within 5 yards you ran a go.
 

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Kyler leaves the pocket a lot so this should be something that was hammered out a while ago but hasn't been. That's on the QB.
i think this is a coaching thing. Its happened enough that I would expect NFL coaches to address it directly rather than wait for Kyler and the WRs to maybe get on the same page
 

Russ Smith

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I didn't watch the video?

He didn't say that at all. If anything he said that knowing that there is a free rusher coming that Kyler should audible to tell Mike to run a hot route. He said "We'd call a sight adjust", well that's on the QB. He says that blitzing DB is the quarterbacks responsibility and he should be calling an audible for Wilson to sit.

For pete's sake do you not know the rest of us can watch it?

I'm watching it right now to paraphrase "we have to have what we call a sight adjust. If my guy comes(Wilson) I'm going to run a hitch. If my guy comes read it, QB, WR run a sight adjustment and get the ball out."

Which is exactly what WIlson did NOT do. You can see at the point Kurt is saying this and drawing a squiggly line where he wants Wilson to run, that Kyler sees the free runner, it's actually #20, and he's starting to look for the hot read, Wilson, realizes he's NOT running the hot route so he bails on the pocket.

he says it quite clearly they are bringing one more player than we can block, the QB is responsible for that player, he doesn't mean Kyler has to block him he means Kyler has to make the hot read and get the ball out to Wilson, except Wilson didn't run the hot route, so then the 2nd part is the QB has to move out of the pocket away from the free runner.

You will probably now accuse Kyler of not reading the blitz but he clearly did that's why he is peeking left and then bails.
 

Chopper0080

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i think this is a coaching thing. Its happened enough that I would expect NFL coaches to address it directly rather than wait for Kyler and the WRs to maybe get on the same page
It all depends on what type guy your QB is. Yes, coaches should be echoing what the QB wants to the position groups, but ultimately, so much of what an offense is is based on what the QB wants. Especially for vets. What a QB likes. What counters he likes. How he wants to attack coverages and schemes. All within the confines of the offense. Good QBs demand things of players. Here is what I need you to do in this situation or that situation. I need to to run the route this way so it creates space or so it helps my reads be easier. This is what the benefit of having a veteran QB is supposed to be.

If Kyler is still the "I run the play that is called" guy, then you are correct it then falls to coaches, but that limits everything because it becomes a game of telephone.
 

Russ Smith

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Warner was clear to point out that he was guessing, that he doesn't know. But he also said on that route that in his day if you hot the CB within 5 yards you ran a go.

Right and then after saying that he said I assume because Wilson broke his off and Kyler threw it broken off that the rule was MHJ was supposed to break his off.

We're all guessing my point is none of us have ANY credentials that allow us to assume Kurt Warner is wrong and we're right.

Again there are so many legit things to complain about with Kyler I don't get the need to invent ones
 

Russ Smith

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Because week after week and year after year there are issues with Kyler and WRs not being on the same page. Wilson isn't a dumb player. MHJ isn't a dumb player. Hopkins wasn't a dumb player. Neither was AJ Green or Fitzgerald. WRs aren't challenging the QB on what he sees and wants. They are just trying to do what the QB wants so they get the ball.

In regards to the Wilson play, there are two things.

1 - Has Kyler never contemplated a blitz out of that coverage before, and communicated what he wants from his WRs when it happens?

2 - When Kyler leaves the pocket, has he not told his WRs what he wants from them when he does. Whether it's Brady's "just go deep" or if it is stay on your path doesn't really matter. In at least two instances in this game, Kyler leaves the pocket, and the WR does something different than what he seems to think they will do. MHJ to be stopping to move back in the direction Kyler is scrambling and Murray throws on path, and Wilson angles his route deeper and Kyler throws on path. Kyler leaves the pocket a lot so this should be something that was hammered out a while ago but hasn't been. That's on the QB.


So again you're arguing that Kurt Warner doesn't know what he's talking about when he describes the play. Because Kurt is quite clear there the problem is on Wilson.
 

Chopper0080

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Right and then after saying that he said I assume because Wilson broke his off and Kyler threw it broken off that the rule was MHJ was supposed to break his off.

We're all guessing my point is none of us have ANY credentials that allow us to assume Kurt Warner is wrong and we're right.

Again there are so many legit things to complain about with Kyler I don't get the need to invent ones
My thing is if Kurt can go into this much detail about what WRs and other players should be doing to influence coverage and defenders, why hasn't Kyler been doing it with each of his players post game for the past 29 games? Why isn't this type of detail the focal point of every off field session he spends with them? Especially when it comes down to division matchups.

The obvious answer is because those details mattered to Warner and don't matter as much to Kyler which is the problem (imo).
 

Chopper0080

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So again you're arguing that Kurt Warner doesn't know what he's talking about when he describes the play. Because Kurt is quite clear there the problem is on Wilson.
No, I am arguing that either Kyler doesn't understand what Wilson is supposed to do in that situation OR Kyler does know but has been unable to communicate it to him over the prior 28 games before they played Seattle.

Kurt explaining how he needs Wilson to read and react in that situation is precisely what Kyler has failed to explain to Wilson over their entire time together. That's the problem.
 

Russ Smith

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My thing is if Kurt can go into this much detail about what WRs and other players should be doing to influence coverage and defenders, why hasn't Kyler been doing it with each of his players post game for the past 29 games? Why isn't this type of detail the focal point of every off field session he spends with them? Especially when it comes down to division matchups.

The obvious answer is because those details mattered to Warner and don't matter as much to Kyler which is the problem (imo).

how do you know he hasn't?

This stuff doesn't happen with McBride. It largely didn't happen with D Hop ever they hit that backshoulder play over and over for example. Kurt said it in the video Marv is much faster than he currently plays, he needs to get where he's supposed to be WHEN he's supposed to be there. It's a polite way of saying Marv runs lazy routes because he's still thinking instead of just playing

Everyone has to play better especially Kyler but that video was pretty clear there's lots of mistakes being made by the Wr's too
 

Russ Smith

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No, I am arguing that either Kyler doesn't understand what Wilson is supposed to do in that situation OR Kyler does know but has been unable to communicate it to him over the prior 28 games before they played Seattle.

Kurt explaining how he needs Wilson to read and react in that situation is precisely what Kyler has failed to explain to Wilson over their entire time together. That's the problem.

Agree to disagree you're assuming Kyler is the one not getting it across and not that the Wr's are just not doing what they're supposed to be doing.
 

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If Kyler is still the "I run the play that is called" guy, then you are correct it then falls to coaches, but that limits everything because it becomes a game of telephone.
nothing stopping them from all getting in the same room and agreeing on a different system, because whatever they have now doesnt work consistently enough
 

BritCard

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For pete's sake do you not know the rest of us can watch it?

I'm watching it right now to paraphrase "we have to have what we call a sight adjust. If my guy comes(Wilson) I'm going to run a hitch. If my guy comes read it, QB, WR run a sight adjustment and get the ball out."

Which is exactly what WIlson did NOT do. You can see at the point Kurt is saying this and drawing a squiggly line where he wants Wilson to run, that Kyler sees the free runner, it's actually #20, and he's starting to look for the hot read, Wilson, realizes he's NOT running the hot route so he bails on the pocket.

he says it quite clearly they are bringing one more player than we can block, the QB is responsible for that player, he doesn't mean Kyler has to block him he means Kyler has to make the hot read and get the ball out to Wilson, except Wilson didn't run the hot route, so then the 2nd part is the QB has to move out of the pocket away from the free runner.

You will probably now accuse Kyler of not reading the blitz but he clearly did that's why he is peeking left and then bails.

I guess you missed these bits

"And again, I say quarterback responsible meaning that if you have built-in hots and sights, uh they have to know that those extra guys are the guys that are theirs"

"So, you have to have some sort of quick answer. What we would call a sight adjust. Boom. Right here. I'm just going to run a hitch. If my guy comes, okay, if if the guy comes on the slot, all right, that's my extra guy. Read it. Quarterback, wide receiver, run an adjustment and get the ball out."

It's the QB's job to read the defense, decide he's going to have a free rusher and call the sight adjust.
 

Russ Smith

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I guess you missed these bits

"And again, I say quarterback responsible meaning that if you have built-in hots and sights, uh they have to know that those extra guys are the guys that are theirs"

"So, you have to have some sort of quick answer. What we would call a sight adjust. Boom. Right here. I'm just going to run a hitch. If my guy comes, okay, if if the guy comes on the slot, all right, that's my extra guy. Read it. Quarterback, wide receiver, run an adjustment and get the ball out."

It's the QB's job to read the defense, decide he's going to have a free rusher and call the sight adjust.


The last sentence is the entire disagreement here. Sight adjustments are made AFTER the snap. The QB does not call the sight adjust before the ball is snapped. It's literally in the name, you adjust the route if you SEE the blitz.

What Kurt said is the free runner, 20 is the QB's responsibility, they can't block him so the QB either has to get the ball out right away, or get out of the pocket to buy time to throw it. He can't get the ball out right away because the hot receiver, Wilson, didn't make the sight adjustment when the man right next to him blitzed. So Kyler got out of the pocket.

That you think the QB is supposed to literally call out the sight adjustment, in advance of the snap explains why you're so locked on whose fault this is.
 

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I'm a huge proponent of going for two at the first opportunity when down 15 late in the game. You MUST gain the information regarding whether you need one more score or two more scores as early as possible; kicking an XP early and leaving an 8-point deficit for later and HOPING you'll get the 2-point conversion later is an objectively horrible choice.

In the Cards' situation vs. Seattle, a successful 2-point conversion would be irrelevant unless the Cards subsequently prevented a Seahawks FG. A successful conversion would put more pressure on Seattle to score that FG, but I doubt that "more pressure" would affect their odds of success.

So basically in the hypothetical scenario where the Cards prevent the Seattle FG, you'd be trading the odds of winning in overtime (presumably 50-50, though based on how the 4th quarter went, I'd be inclined to give the advantage to the Cards) for the odds of succeeding on the 2-point conversion.

I don't know where you found your numbers, but what I've seen is that success on 2-point conversions is trending downwards, and was far less than 50% in 2024. Further, the Cards are especially bad at short yardage conversions since Murray cannot or will not sneak the ball. They had already failed on short yardage earlier in the game. I wouldn't needlessly bet the game on the Cards gaining 2 yards on one play.

From an analytics perspective, if the odds of succeeding on a 2-point conversion were significantly better than 50%, I'd be in favor of doing it almost every time except in specific late game scenarios. Expected value wins in the long run.
Thanks for the explanation. I was not advocating for it, it's just that several of these new coaches have done it. I even included a snippet about it. I completely agree with your thinking if you're down by 15.
 

kerouac9

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This stuff doesn't happen with McBride
You can’t have a whole offense where people run five yards and turn around and show Kyler their number. We actually tried that near the end of the Kliff regime.

If all the WRs are making bad decisions or playing with bad technique it’s a combination of scouting, coaching, and QB.
 

Russ Smith

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You can’t have a whole offense where people run five yards and turn around and show Kyler their number. We actually tried that near the end of the Kliff regime.

If all the WRs are making bad decisions or playing with bad technique it’s a combination of scouting, coaching, and QB.

Sure but again my point is and Kurt says it over and over in the video. Kyler has a rapport with McBride he doesn't have with the others and that's a problem. People here are assuming that's Kylers fault but Kurt is saying it's a on all of them too.

I personally don't think Kyler ever mentally recovered from AJ Green standing there as Kyler fired the ball into the endzone and it got picked to seal the game in Green Bay. I don't think he's ever had the same trust since then. But he does with McBride because Trey is where he's supposed to be when he's supposed to be there.
 

Chopper0080

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Agree to disagree you're assuming Kyler is the one not getting it across and not that the Wr's are just not doing what they're supposed to be doing.
When have you heard of a professional WR intentionally doing something that hinders them from getting the football? There has been one constant with the Cardinals issues in the passing game and that is Kyler. HE struggled to get on the same page as Larry. He struggled to get on the same page as AJ Green. Hopkins reportedly clowned him to others once he left AZ. Miscommunications with Wilson. With MHJ. With Zay Jones.

That is not all invalidated because he seems to mostly be on the same page with McBride.

It's like telling people at work it's not my fault that I am miscommunicating with all of them because I don't with my wife. That doesn't then mean they are all the problem.
 

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I didn't watch the video?

He didn't say that at all. If anything he said that knowing that there is a free rusher coming that Kyler should audible to tell Mike to run a hot route. He said "We'd call a sight adjust", well that's on the QB. He says that blitzing DB is the quarterbacks responsibility and he should be calling an audible for Wilson to sit.
That's not what he means by a sight adjust. Brit I know you've only been watching the game for what 10 years now? You've gain a lot of knowledge but this one you're wrong about this one.

The real issue is if Wilson does read/see the blitz a makes a "sight adjust" and runs the hitch, K1 isn't even looking that way. He's locked on the tight end. The sight adjust is on both players. The QB has to read it and the WR has to see the blitz and adjust for it. Which Wilson should know because his guy is blitzing.

I don't believe K1 read that blitz at all. Not sure what he was thinking about what the defense was doing
 
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