Roster Analysis: Cardinals' QBs and RBs

[WisconsinCard]

AZ Finest you are correct in my mind. Whis said many times last year that ML was putting in the time he needed to. In fact he praised him when he was out with his Shoulder injury, saying things like ML is still in early every morning, and staying late. If Whis didn't like ML he wouldn't be giving favorable quotes to the newspapers about him.

 

[WisconsinCard]

if he's so highly thought of, why not just trade St.Pierre to the Jets ? I'd take a 3rd for him rather than trade away Leinart.

If Whis thought so highly of him why was Tim Rattay the number 2 last year after ML got hurt. He didn't make him number #2 then either.

 

[Mitch]

If Whis thought so highly of him why was Tim Rattay the number 2 last year after ML got hurt. He didn't make him number #2 then either.

St. Pierre wasn't on the team in 2007 (the year Rattay was called on), that's why.

 

[WisconsinCard]

St. Pierre wasn't on the team in 2007 (the year Rattay was called on), that's why.

OOPS sorry brain cramp. Don't know what I was thinking.

 

[Mitch]

OOPS sorry brain cramp. Don't know what I was thinking.

No problem, WC. Whiz would have wanted St. Pierre for sure that year, but he was still with the Steelers.

 

[john h]

Even if Leinart does demand a trade the Cardinals would be silly to oblige this year. Next year is a another matter and more of a decision making time. Interesting enough you cite Cassel as a reason Leinart is "chomping at the bit" to play. How long again did Cassel have to wait to play? He was behind one of the most durable and remarkable QBs of all time and it worked out pretty well.

I certainly don't buy that Whisenhunt has the confidence you do that St Pierre can be the back up to a 38 year old QB who has shown no ability to stay healthy over te duration of his career. In fact I bet St Pierre's own mother has doubts he could handle the job.

Mitch - where does this desire to get rid of Leinart at all costs come from? Is it personal? Do you not like his percieved personality? Do you think he doesn't have the skills? Keep in mind Cassell backed HIM up after being the upperclassman at SC and now he is the QB du jour of the NFL.

I just dont' get it. Why don't you think it would be worthwile to keep a potential QBOF who has shown some good flashs and has a reasonable cap number this year and trade THAT kind of commodity? If you love Warner so much surely Matt must have learned something this past year. Why would you want to see some other team reap those benefits that we cultivated - when there are minimal salary cap implications for 2009?

Is this just what you think will happen or what you want to happen? Do you just want to see St Pierre get this shot THAT bad?

Don't take this in an attacking manner. I just want to be enlightned on your angle here?

Few or none of us see St Pierre on a daily basis like Whiz and his coaches so we do not know just what his future may be. Same with Leinhart. It just might be that the coaches think one of these backups may have a brighter future than Matt no matter how improbable that may sound. If they think Matt has a good future then I would not trade him as Kurt at age 38 could go down for good at any time. If we want a chance to see the superbowl again then we must resign Warner. No rookie or guy who has played very little (Matt) is going take us to the superbowl. Kurt and Fitz can almost read each others mind. If Kurt is healthy all season we will be tough on offense. We could be even tougher with a RB.

 

[john h]

Thanks for the questions and phrasing them respectfully. I appreciate that, AF.

Here are my reasons, and I will be the first to admit if I am wrong.

1. The QB market is high right now. If the Cardinals wait a year to explore trades for Leinart they may be risking three things: (a) the market won't be as high...thus the return they could get for him would be far lower; (b) what if Warner gets hurt and Leinart struggles replacing him? That would ruin any chances of getting good value for him or having any significant leverage in trade talks; (c) the $15M roster bonus becomes more of an imminent factor the following year...and could cause the Cardinals to release him without getting anything in return.

2. About the $15M roster bonus...and Joe makes a good point that whomever trades for Leinart may likely want to rip up his old contract and ink him to a new one...which, by the way, Leinart would probably be more than willing to do...but, if let's say the Jets offered their 1st round pick for Leinart...they could opt to try to negotiate a new contract with him--or--they could decide to keep his current contract as is with the realization that they were going to have to ink him to a signing bonus anyway (which they wouldn't have to pay until the following year)...also they would have one year to evaluate him and his value and be in a position to rework the contract after his first year there. In the meantime, they could save significant money for their cap this year only having to pay Leinart $3M this year and saving on the first round pick money. The Jets actually need the cap space after all the money they spent last year in free agency.

3. And this is speculative, I admit, and I know this is going to infuriate some of you, but I honestly believe that the Cardinal coaches think St. Pierre is a better fit for their system than Leinart. This isn't to say that the coaches are completely down on Leinart...I don't believe they are. But, it's more about style of play and Leinart's doesn't quite match the style they are looking for. If the Cardinals ran a more traditional offense, the way the Jets do, for example, Leinart would certainly be a better fit. But, the Cardinals have a high powered passing attack which requires the QB to be a quick reader of defenses and blitzes and have the quick release to get the ball out fast. St. Pierre has a quicker release than Leinart and he's got better feet...which is why he fits the system better.

4. And this may be the most important reason of all...with Warner back as QB...and the Cardinals needing difference makers on defense...if the Cardinals did have a chance to trade Leinart for a pick in the teens, they would want to do it. For example, if they were able to add Rey Maualaga or Brian Cushing...either of them could give the team a better chance of winning the Super Bowl, than a #2 QB on the sidelines would.

Honestly, AF, I have nothing personal against Leinart. I just don't believe he's the right fit for Whiz's system. In fact, I would bet you that had Whiz been the HC in 2006 he would have taken Jay Cutler over Leinart, and not have even thought twice about it.

Mitch: You and I are certainly on the same page with St Pierre. I like your evaluation on Leinart fitting into our system which is not likely to change anytime soon. With a corps of receivers like we have we are going to be a passing team for some years to come. I have never seen St Pierre play so my thoughts on him are pure instinct. He is always right there with the coaches every game and seems to very intent on watching every play and always talking to the coaches including Whiz. I sense he has a close relationship with these coaches. You say he has a quicker release and better feet than Matt. I did not know that but I do know Matt is rather slow and does not have a quick release. If the coaches have a good feeling about St Pierre then trading Matt for a very good player or high draft pick makes some sense. It does not take an expert to know that Matt is going to be very unhappy if he thinks he will be playing behind Kurt for two more years. Signing Kurt seems like an absolute no brainer. We know what he can do and led us to the super-bowl. I think the Cards fans would go berserk if we did not sign Warner and ended up not even making the playoffs. Mr. B and Graves would be labeled idiots. Neither want that tag and you can bet it would come not only from fans but announcers and the press. Kurt and Fitz are everywhere on TV and in the papers. They gave the Cards more press coverage in one year than we have got in the last 20 years. Other than Kurt and Fitz who have we had to ever appear on the Jay Leno show. People know who the Cards now even in the east. Our TV rating will jump this year and all this leads to more money for the Cards. Warner has to be retained. What ever it cost he more than earned it.

 

[lauraw]

I agree with you there johnh, we need a topflite rb in my opinion, and we must keep kurt.

 

[ChandlerCard]

Mitch, I always enjoy your insight and would be curious how you'd respond to my take:

Leinart has the smarts and the poise to be a solid NFL QB. While he lacks exemplary arm strength, he is a fluid and accurate passer, who would be at his best in an offense, like he had at USC, that has a dependable ground game.

This is precisely why I believe Leinart stays (regardless of his trade desires). I believe Whiz is taking this offseason as an opportunity to more fully mold the team into what he believes will have the most predictable long-term success: one that's solid in the trenches. I believe achieving a dependable ground game will be a key offseason priority. We have a high-flying passing attack only because that's what our strengths have been, but there have been plenty of comments to the effect that a more balanced attack is desired. In addition, if Warner is resigned and plays well throughout the year Leinart's value will be tied primarily to potential, giving the Cards a good opportunity to restructure his deal at a reasonable rate. Even if traded at that point, it will still be on potential, so any loss of value over the year will be paid for by the value we get for him as a solid backup this year.

Because of St. Pierre's strong relationship with Whisenhunt and his knowledge of the system, it will be interesting to see whether he is re-signed and what the team's expectations are for him next season. He lacks NFL game experience, so the coaches would have to feel confident enough in his abilities to promote him to the #2 role.

I see him being resigned and becoming #2 behind Leinart. I also expect he'll get a chance to compete for #2 this year if he's smart enough to push that point. We just haven't seen him play behind the #1 and #2 folks enough to know, although I'm sure the coaches have a much better idea of his potential.

Edge wants out of Arizona where he felt he was being stifled and held hostage.

Edge will not find himself as "the" back no matter where he goes. If this point gets past his ego and his agent, he'll remain a Cardinal. Otherwise I agree that he signs somewhere and splits time, and probably won't be happy about it.

 

[Mitch]

Mitch: You and I are certainly on the same page with St Pierre. I like your evaluation on Leinart fitting into our system which is not likely to change anytime soon. With a corps of receivers like we have we are going to be a passing team for some years to come. I have never seen St Pierre play so my thoughts on him are pure instinct. He is always right there with the coaches every game and seems to very intent on watching every play and always talking to the coaches including Whiz. I sense he has a close relationship with these coaches. You say he has a quicker release and better feet than Matt. I did not know that but I do know Matt is rather slow and does not have a quick release. If the coaches have a good feeling about St Pierre then trading Matt for a very good player or high draft pick makes some sense. It does not take an expert to know that Matt is going to be very unhappy if he thinks he will be playing behind Kurt for two more years. Signing Kurt seems like an absolute no brainer. We know what he can do and led us to the super-bowl. I think the Cards fans would go berserk if we did not sign Warner and ended up not even making the playoffs. Mr. B and Graves would be labeled idiots. Neither want that tag and you can bet it would come not only from fans but announcers and the press. Kurt and Fitz are everywhere on TV and in the papers. They gave the Cards more press coverage in one year than we have got in the last 20 years. Other than Kurt and Fitz who have we had to ever appear on the Jay Leno show. People know who the Cards now even in the east. Our TV rating will jump this year and all this leads to more money for the Cards. Warner has to be retained. What ever it cost he more than earned it.

I could not agree with you more, John. In fact, I would let Kurt Warner pick his own price...not only because he deserves it, especially after getting paid far below what the good starting QBs made this past year and being the starting QB in the Super Bowl and Pro Bowl, but because you know that Warner has such class he would want a reasonable figure so that the team could have enough cap space to sign all of the players the team wants and needs to sign.

I know you and I are in the minority with regard to Leinart, but he doesn't seem to fit the system, for the reasons you suggested, and he would give the team value in return via a trade, and the Cardinals wouldn't have to pay him $15M next year just to retain him (still not knowing if he's the real deal or not).

Good observations of Brian St. Pierre on the sidelines. His head is in everything and it did not surprise me to learn that Haley asked St. Pierre to tell him when to call the flea flicker in the Atlanta game. He was one of the smartest and grittiest QBs we've had at BC...I felt he was better than Matt Hasselbeck and I liked Hass a lot, for obvious reasons.

But I am worried that Haley will go after him. It would not surprise me in the least. Hopefully, Whiz will get Graves to sign him before next Friday.

 

[Mitch]

Mitch, I always enjoy your insight and would be curious how you'd respond to my take:



This is precisely why I believe Leinart stays (regardless of his trade desires). I believe Whiz is taking this offseason as an opportunity to more fully mold the team into what he believes will have the most predictable long-term success: one that's solid in the trenches. I believe achieving a dependable ground game will be a key offseason priority. We have a high-flying passing attack only because that's what our strengths have been, but there have been plenty of comments to the effect that a more balanced attack is desired. In addition, if Warner is resigned and plays well throughout the year Leinart's value will be tied primarily to potential, giving the Cards a good opportunity to restructure his deal at a reasonable rate. Even if traded at that point, it will still be on potential, so any loss of value over the year will be paid for by the value we get for him as a solid backup this year.



I see him being resigned and becoming #2 behind Leinart. I also expect he'll get a chance to compete for #2 this year if he's smart enough to push that point. We just haven't seen him play behind the #1 and #2 folks enough to know, although I'm sure the coaches have a much better idea of his potential.



Edge will not find himself as "the" back no matter where he goes. If this point gets past his ego and his agent, he'll remain a Cardinal. Otherwise I agree that he signs somewhere and splits time, and probably won't be happy about it.

ChandlerCard:

All of your points have merit. And I would be more persuaded to agree with them if the team wasn't facing a $15M payout to Leinart next year. Some argue that the Cardinals could then (next year) renegotiate with Leinart on a new contract, yet why would he agree to that if he still would have to sit behind Warner another year (assuming Warner signs for two years, which has been in his thinking all along)? I simply cannot envision that happening, nor can I envision the Cardinals paying Leinart the $15M when he hasn't proven himself yet...which means that when push comes to shove the Cardinals are going to have to release Leinart at that point and get nothing in return for him.

This is why it makes sense to make a move now, not later. Any team that trades for him can ask to renegotiate his contract, which Leinart would likely be more than willing to do seeing as he would now be the starter with that team...and not have to wait two more years.

As for Edge, he won't be the feature back anymore...but because teams are now using three RBs to share the load, he will be able to sign with a team that he likes and is willing to play for at a reduced salary.

What is your take on Boldin? What do you think should happen with him?

I think the Cardinals should trade him...but I don't think they will. RG never seems to take the disgruntled comments to heart...and he definitely doesn't want to set a precedent of caving in to a disgruntled player's and unctuous agent's demands...which may also be why RG is still holding Edge hostage for now. Regardless, the Boldin scenario is one tough sticky situation.

 

[Stout]

Why do you think, then Joe, that Steve Mariucci predicted this pre-season St. Pierre would become a good starter somewhere soon?

Do you think Mariucci is oblivious?

The perception of St. Pierre around the league is much higher than you think.

My buddy who knows St. Pierre's old QB coach in Pittsburgh, Mark Whipple, said that Whipple is very high on St. Pierre.

Thirty years old is not old for a QB, particlarly one who hasn't yet taken a pounding. You act as if 30 is ancient.

Like Skkorp suggested some players actually get better with age and when they get their shot no matter if they were #2s somewhere or #3s or one-time DBs, they rise to the occasion. It happens, Joe!

Bill Walsh predicted that Jim Druckenmiller was the next Joe Montana.