Real reason we passed on Suggs

Lex

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was because we were SOOOO afraid we wouldn't get Bryant Johnson at #37.

I know, I know, we probably had to promise Sully that we'd take a reciever with our #1 pick for him to reconsider taking the head coaching job, and I imagine, to get the big ticket seller, (Emmitt Smith) to agree to come here, we had to promise to draft the two best blocking wideouts in college football last year, along with the top free agent blocking fullback. Hell, Emmitt may have even requested the deep ball threat, Jeff Blake. Wonderful. Take good care of Emmitt, he's got to sell all the tickets here, while we nab the top draft picks in the next three years, and trade them, so we can show all those superstars who REALLY controls the salary cap.

I took a little heat yesterday for comparing Pace to Suggs. You know, Pace had 6 sacks last year, and Suggs had 24. But it's not fair to compare...Suggs played in a 4-3, like we do, and came off the edge, like what we needed. The cards however, proclaimed that Suggs is not suited to the 4-3, and will be a better fit in a 3-4 scheme. Great, all knowing cards.

Pace had 6 sacks, but played straight up on the tackle, in a 3-4 defense, so we can't really judge his numbers. The all knowing cards have proclaimed that HE'S better suited to a 4-3.

What a load of dung.

They drove this entire off season plan, to the pleasure of Emmitt Smith. Every move was made to help him, at the expense of wins.
 

ajcardfan

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Pace had eight sacks last year.
 

Krangodnzr

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Does anybody else remember Section 11's ASFN Awards?

I nominate Lex for most mentally challenged....
 

LVCARDFREAK

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Originally posted by Lex
was because we were SOOOO afraid we wouldn't get Bryant Johnson at #37.

I know, I know, we probably had to promise Sully that we'd take a reciever with our #1 pick for him to reconsider taking the head coaching job, and I imagine, to get the big ticket seller, (Emmitt Smith) to agree to come here, we had to promise to draft the two best blocking wideouts in college football last year, along with the top free agent blocking fullback. Hell, Emmitt may have even requested the deep ball threat, Jeff Blake. Wonderful. Take good care of Emmitt, he's got to sell all the tickets here, while we nab the top draft picks in the next three years, and trade them, so we can show all those superstars who REALLY controls the salary cap.

I took a little heat yesterday for comparing Pace to Suggs. You know, Pace had 6 sacks last year, and Suggs had 24. But it's not fair to compare...Suggs played in a 4-3, like we do, and came off the edge, like what we needed. The cards however, proclaimed that Suggs is not suited to the 4-3, and will be a better fit in a 3-4 scheme. Great, all knowing cards.

Pace had 6 sacks, but played straight up on the tackle, in a 3-4 defense, so we can't really judge his numbers. The all knowing cards have proclaimed that HE'S better suited to a 4-3.

What a load of dung.

They drove this entire off season plan, to the pleasure of Emmitt Smith. Every move was made to help him, at the expense of wins.


Dude, Can you please explain your conspiracy theory on the JFK assasination too? Chill.... I hate hate hate the Emmitt signing, but he does not control these things.-Thats just plain ridiculous.

Pace had 8 sacks last year and up until this past year was everry bit as good statistically as Suggs. Check it out for yourself. In fact excluding sacks, Pace had better overall numbers considering WF played 2 less games than ASU and Pace missed Half of the Navy game when he broke his leg.
 
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Lex

Lex

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Pace had 8 sacks last year if you count the bowl game. Great, 25 % of his sacks came in the bowl game.

Ok, I checked out the stats before this year:

Pace
Freshman year- redshirt 0 sacks.
Sophmore year- 2 sacks.
Junior year- 9 sacks.
senior year- 10 sacks.
5th year- 8 sacks.

Campus agility tests-
4.82 40
450 bench press
510 squat
33'' verticle

Suggs
Freshman year- 10 sacks
Sophmore year- 10 sacks
Junior year- 24 sacks

Campus agility tests-
4.63 40
330 bench press
290 power clean
34'' verticle

"Up until last year, Pace was every bit as good as Suggs."
 

Krangodnzr

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Originally posted by Lex
Pace had 8 sacks last year if you count the bowl game. Great, 25 % of his sacks came in the bowl game.

Ok, I checked out the stats before this year:

Pace
Freshman year- redshirt 0 sacks.
Sophmore year- 2 sacks.
Junior year- 9 sacks.
senior year- 10 sacks.
5th year- 8 sacks.

Campus agility tests-
4.82 40
450 bench press
510 squat
33'' verticle

Suggs
Freshman year- 10 sacks
Sophmore year- 10 sacks
Junior year- 24 sacks

Campus agility tests-
4.63 40
330 bench press
290 power clean
34'' verticle

"Up until last year, Pace was every bit as good as Suggs."

Uhhmmmm....me thinks you are using bad stats. Suggs ran a 4.89 at his campus workouts, and Pace ran a 4.6 at his.
 

Krangodnzr

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Even Dirk Koetter, Suggs' college coach concedes that Suggs' doesn't time well in the 40. His best time ever (according to Koetter 4.75 though he has never run that fast for scouts) is .15 slower than Pace's best (4.6)
 
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Lex

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NFL.com Krang. If you check out the article on the front page about Pace being drafted by us, you can research both players.
 

Krangodnzr

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Originally posted by Lex
Pace had 8 sacks last year if you count the bowl game. Great, 25 % of his sacks came in the bowl game.

Ok, I checked out the stats before this year:

Pace
Freshman year- redshirt 0 sacks.
Sophmore year- 2 sacks.
Junior year- 9 sacks.
senior year- 10 sacks.
5th year- 8 sacks.

Campus agility tests-
4.82 40
450 bench press
510 squat
33'' verticle

Suggs
Freshman year- 10 sacks
Sophmore year- 10 sacks
Junior year- 24 sacks

Campus agility tests-
4.63 40
330 bench press
290 power clean
34'' verticle

"Up until last year, Pace was every bit as good as Suggs."

So basically....Pace is stronger, faster, and played a harder position to put up big numbers....
 

Krangodnzr

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Originally posted by Lex
NFL.com Krang. If you check out the article on the front page about Pace being drafted by us, you can research both players.

I don't have to. Suggs ran a freaking 4.89.....he has NEVER run a 4.63, that was what teams speculated.
 

Russ Smith

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Originally posted by Lex
NFL.com Krang. If you check out the article on the front page about Pace being drafted by us, you can research both players.

Lex if that was correct Suggs would not have been there at #6 and you know that perfectly well.

I have no idea what Pace ran but it's well documented what Suggs ran, twice. That's the whole concern he gained weight to impress scouts and then didn't run fast and suddenly everyone decided the only way he'd be fast enough is to play in the 240's again and that's too small to be an everydown DE.

I didn't like the pick but give Pace a chance most of us have never even seen him play but that doesn't mean we screwed up it looks more and more like other teams liked Pace too.
 

Krangodnzr

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Originally posted by Russ Smith
Lex if that was correct Suggs would not have been there at #6 and you know that perfectly well.

I have no idea what Pace ran but it's well documented what Suggs ran, twice. That's the whole concern he gained weight to impress scouts and then didn't run fast and suddenly everyone decided the only way he'd be fast enough is to play in the 240's again and that's too small to be an everydown DE.

I didn't like the pick but give Pace a chance most of us have never even seen him play but that doesn't mean we screwed up it looks more and more like other teams liked Pace too.

Do a search on Pace on KFFL..... they reported that he ran a 4.6 at his workouts and I've read it other places as well.
 

LVCARDFREAK

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Originally posted by Lex
Pace had 8 sacks last year if you count the bowl game. Great, 25 % of his sacks came in the bowl game.

Ok, I checked out the stats before this year:

Pace
Freshman year- redshirt 0 sacks.
Sophmore year- 2 sacks.
Junior year- 9 sacks.
senior year- 10 sacks.
5th year- 8 sacks.

Campus agility tests-
4.82 40
450 bench press
510 squat
33'' verticle

Suggs
Freshman year- 10 sacks
Sophmore year- 10 sacks
Junior year- 24 sacks

Campus agility tests-
4.63 40
330 bench press
290 power clean
34'' verticle

"Up until last year, Pace was every bit as good as Suggs."


Lex lex lex....come clean. We can look up stats: Starting with 2000

PACE:
DEFENSIVE STATISTICS
YEAR GP GS TK SO AS FR FC INT TFL PBU SACK PRES
2000 11 10 50 33 17 1 1 0-0 12-74 0 9.0-67 5
2001 11 11 62 36 26 0 4 0-0 18-65 1 10.0-56 8
2002 12 12 73 43 30 0 0 0-0 22-72 6 8.0-43 17


SUGGS:
YEAR GP GS TK SO AS FR FC INT TFL PBU SACK BK
2000 11 09 48 41 7 3 4 1 16.0-72 3 10.0-60 0
2001 11 11 42 24 18 0 4 0 18.0-79 3 10.0-57 0
2002 14 14 73 44 29 0 6 1 31.5-203 3 24.0-171 0



As you can see, Pace had more tackles than Suggs and had just as many sacks each year except this last one.

To defend Lex, on cbs.sportline.com they also have Suggs running a 4.63 40, but it just obviosuly isnt true.

Anyway, my point is Suggs had one breakout year, otherwise they were both quite similiar in their stats in fact Pace had more tackles, jsut as mnay tackles for loss, and just as many sacks (barring 2002 of course)
 
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Lex

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Krang- CAMPUS AGILITY TESTS

Your talking about pro workouts.

Pro workouts were only held by top draft picks, months after the season ended. What did Pace run the 40 at HIS pro workout?

If you really expect me to believe you didn't check out the source I listed, for these numbers, you are underestimating me once again. You would love to prove me wrong. Since you couldn't, you claim NFL.com posts false reports.

Nice...
 

Krangodnzr

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Originally posted by Lex
Krang- CAMPUS AGILITY TESTS

Your talking about pro workouts.

Pro workouts were only held by top draft picks, months after the season ended. What did Pace run the 40 at HIS pro workout?

If you really expect me to believe you didn't check out the source I listed, for these numbers, you are underestimating me once again. You would love to prove me wrong. Since you couldn't, you claim NFL.com posts false reports.

Nice...

SUGGS NEVER HAS RUN A FREAKING 4.63.....THAT IS WRONG AND YOU KNOW IT!
 
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Lex

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Great post there cardfreak. Now if we could just let Suggs play two more years in college like Pace did, perhaps your post would carry a little weight.

Pace had 11 sacks by his third year in college.

Suggs had 44 by his third year in college.

Not much difference eh?

We have finished dead last in sacks for three consecutive years.
 

LVCARDFREAK

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Originally posted by Lex
Krang- CAMPUS AGILITY TESTS

Your talking about pro workouts.

Pro workouts were only held by top draft picks, months after the season ended. What did Pace run the 40 at HIS pro workout?

If you really expect me to believe you didn't check out the source I listed, for these numbers, you are underestimating me once again. You would love to prove me wrong. Since you couldn't, you claim NFL.com posts false reports.

Nice...


Lex, hes right! Suggs has never run a 4.63 40. Never has, never will. They are campus workouts and timed by coaches, they are an estimate not a combine workout or a college 'pro-day' I can sit here and specualte I run a 4.25 40, but it doesnt meen s&*t!

If Suggs ran a 4.63 he would be #1 overall! Read where it is posted under-probably 'campus workouts"
 

Russ Smith

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Originally posted by LVCARDFREAK
Lex lex lex....come clean. We can look up stats: Starting with 2000

PACE:
DEFENSIVE STATISTICS
YEAR GP GS TK SO AS FR FC INT TFL PBU SACK PRES
2000 11 10 50 33 17 1 1 0-0 12-74 0 9.0-67 5
2001 11 11 62 36 26 0 4 0-0 18-65 1 10.0-56 8
2002 12 12 73 43 30 0 0 0-0 22-72 6 8.0-43 17


SUGGS:
YEAR GP GS TK SO AS FR FC INT TFL PBU SACK BK
2000 11 09 48 41 7 3 4 1 16.0-72 3 10.0-60 0
2001 11 11 42 24 18 0 4 0 18.0-79 3 10.0-57 0
2002 14 14 73 44 29 0 6 1 31.5-203 3 24.0-171 0



As you can see, Pace had more tackles than Suggs and had just as many sacks each year except this last one.

To defend Lex, on cbs.sportline.com they also have Suggs running a 4.63 40, but it just obviosuly isnt true.

Anyway, my point is Suggs had one breakout year, otherwise they were both quite similiar in their stats in fact Pace had more tackles, jsut as mnay tackles for loss, and just as many sacks (barring 2002 of course)

If I were Lex my entire argument would be Suggs is 20, the youngest player in the draft, and comparing a junior to a 5th year senior is unfair to the junior.

I think the reality is the Cards decided Suggs could only play as a situational pass rusher and Pace could play on first and second down so they went with pace. It doesn't mean they think Pace is the better player just the better fit for us both in our scheme, and financially since we picked him later.
 

Krangodnzr

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Originally posted by LVCARDFREAK
Lex, hes right! Suggs has never run a 4.63 40. Never has, never will. They are campus workouts and timed by coaches, they are an estimate not a combine workout or a college 'pro-day' I can sit here and specualte I run a 4.25 40, but it doesnt meen s&*t!

If Suggs ran a 4.63 he would be #1 overall! Read where it is posted under-probably 'campus workouts"

Exactly, Lex will use anything to prove his point, no matter how questionable it is.

Even his college coach said that he has never run that fast (Koetter said he is a 4.75 guy at 240 lbs.)
 
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Lex

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Ok, Suggs campus workouts are a lie, but Pace's are correct?

Can someone please find Pace's pro workout numbers, so we can get a REAL time on him? I can't seem to find any.

Suggs WAS being considered the #1 overall, till his pro workouts. Anyone remember that?
 

Krangodnzr

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Originally posted by Lex
Ok, Suggs campus workouts are a lie, but Pace's are correct?

Can someone please find Pace's pro workout numbers, so we can get a REAL time on him? I can't seem to find any.

Suggs WAS being considered the #1 overall, till his pro workouts. Anyone remember that?

And is workouts were so piss poor that eleven teams didn't want to use their pick on him, and the Cards rated him as their 16th best prospect (as did many other teams, basically only 3-4 teams had him rated high).
 
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Lex

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By the way, this thread was about WHY we passed on Suggs. Because of Emmitt. We had to have the best blocking wideout. The cards sacrificed our pass rush and wins to do it. We were going to "settle" for whatever rusher was left after we got Johnson. And we did.

I love the Pace pick in round 2 or 3, and I hope he has a great career for us.

My entire argument is exactly what you said Russ. 5th year senior VS a 20 year old.
 

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http://www.kffl.com/player/6031/NFL

Cardinals | Pace to See Time on the Outside - from www.KFFL.com
Tue, 29 Apr 2003 01:54:44 -0700

The Arizona Republic reports Arizona Cardinals rookie DE Calvin Pace did most of his pass-rushing in college last year lined up over the tackle position in a three defensive line scheme. The Cardinals plan to have him work on the outside for them.


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Cardinals | Pace Selected - from www.KFFL.com
Sat, 26 Apr 2003 11:22:11 -0700

The Arizona Cardinals have selected DE Calvin Pace (Wake Forest) with the 18th overall selection in the 2003 NFL Draft.


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Chiefs | Pace to Visit - from www.KFFL.com
Thu, 27 Mar 2003 00:18:53 -0800

Matt Gambill, of All Pro Scouting, has informed KFFL that Wake Forest DE Calvin Pace will be visiting with the Kansas City Chiefs on March 31 through April 1.


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Patriots | Pace to Visit - from www.KFFL.com
Thu, 27 Mar 2003 00:18:35 -0800

Matt Gambill, of All Pro Scouting, has informed KFFL that Wake Forest DE Calvin Pace will be visiting with the New England Patriots on April 2nd-3rd.


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Steelers | Pace to Visit - from www.KFFL.com
Thu, 27 Mar 2003 00:18:25 -0800

Matt Gambill, of All Pro Scouting, has informed KFFL that Wake Forest DE Calvin Pace will be visiting with the Pittsburgh Steelers on April 3rd-4th.


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NFL | C. Pace Continues To Rise - from www.KFFL.com
Fri, 21 Mar 2003 11:33:26 -0800

Updating previous reports, Len Pasquarelli reports for ESPN.com the draft stock of Wake Forest DE Calvin Pace continues to rise. At his workout this week, Pace weighed 267 pounds, ran in the mid-4.6s, and demonstrated surprisingly good skills in linebacker drills. He is garnering plenty of looks from the 3-4 defense teams.


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