Quarterback Questions

[shake-n-bake]

First off im not talking smack. I would just like some honest opions. I must say im a Broncos fan and havent watched to many Cards games over the years. We have been having discussions on the broncos boards about why we think Jake will do well in denver. Many people from this board have been quick to point out how poor he played while with the Cardnails. This lead me to do some reasearch about how other quarterbacks did while in zona vs how they did before or after they left. here is what I came up with.

Steve B : In 1993 played 16 games had 18td and 17ints for arizona
in 1999, the next season he started all 16 games, he had 36td and 15int for Carolina.

Dave Kreig: In 1995 for Arizona had 16td and 21 ints for arizona in 16 games
In 1996 while playing for chicago he started 13 games and had 14td and 12 ints
the year before he got to Arizona in 1994 playing while playing for Detriot he had 14td and 3 ints. playing in Just 14 games

Chris Chandler: In 1992 he played 15 games for arizona and had 15td and 15 ints. In 1995 playing in 13 games for houston he had 17tds and 10ints. In 1997 and 1998 he played for atlanta and had 20td - 7ints and 25tds and 12ints.

Boomer Esiason: In 1996 while playing in Arizona he had 11tds and 14ints in 10 games the next year he went back to cincy and in 7 games and 13tds and 2 ints.
His had his best seasons berfore he got to Arizona while playing in Cincy.
Then you got Stan Gelbaugh who played in 1991. He had 3td and 10ints in just 6 games. The next season he played in 10 games for seattle and had 6td and 11ints still pretty bad but then again who the hell is stan gelbaugh. You also have Timm Rosenbach who was with the team for 3 years and didnt ever play with anyother teams and the same for Gary Hogeboom he did play with dallas before he got to zona and never played well. This is all going back to Lomax who was clearly the best quarterback in recent history.
I also looked at quarterbacks run support while in Arizona and this is what i found. In 1995 they had hearst he went for 1070
In 1998 murrell went for 1042. Ron moore in 1993 went for 1018 thats it for 1000 yard rushers. bBest rusher of all time is otis anderson but that was back from 1979-1984 which conisides with lamax having his best seasons as a quarterback.

So i guess my question is why do they fail zona but find succses in other places ?

 

[KingofCards]

Probably because they can't spell and ignore punctuation.

 

[Shane]

Ok there are a mutitude of reason a QB can do well in other places and at no time and in most cases have you or will you hear to many posters on this board slam the play of many of the QBs that you mentioned. Like Beurline or Chandler.

Some was lack of talent around them. Some was poor coaching. But we realized that those guys were still NFL caliber QBs even after they left the desert.

But after 6 years of watching Plummer it is quite evident that he just doesnt have what it takes physically or mentally to be a great NFL QB or even what I would call good for that matter. Jake certainly didnt have a lack of talent on his side of the ball while here in AZ. He had quality WRs and a very good o-line the last couple of years.

The simple fact is that he doesnt see the whole field. He will lock onto one WR and not even see the guy running open down the middle of the field. He makes poor decisions. Even the routine throws where no pressure is applied and Jake will screw it up bouncing it on the turf in front of him. Jake has more balls tipped at the LOS than you can shake a stick at!

I was one of the biggest Jake supporters always having faith that he would turn it around. but after watching him painfully for the last time last season It finally hit me and I realized that the guy just doesnt have the head or the skill.

He would make a decent back-up QB IMO but not much more!

 

[ajcardfan]

The flaw in the logic with, "Surround him with better players and he'll excel" for the Broncos is the same as it was with the Cardinals. Both franchises signed him to contracts as the "difference maker", "the playmaker", etc. And, the fact is, he isn't. Not that he can't make exciting plays and comebacks, he can. Where he never progressed was in making the simple plays to keep drives alive, especially in the first half. Many QB's reach the point where they can see a defense and immediately have a feel for who will be open, even if it's the third or fourth WR. Way too often, if the primary guy was taken away, Jake couldn't adjust. I've watched almost every game he's played since he was a freshman at ASU until now.

Nobody ever saw any of those other Cardinals QB's as franchise types. The smart thing that Denver did was give themselves an out after two years on his deal.

 

[shake-n-bake]

All of the Quarterbacks mentioned put up the same type numbers plummer did while in Arizona. the td to int ratio is very simiular the only quarterbacks who to throw for more TD's than Ints for Arizona are Plummer with 18 tds and 14 ints one season. Steve B. with 18tds and 17ints. And Lomax who had several good seasons.

 

[arthurracoon]

Originally posted by shake-n-bake
All of the Quarterbacks mentioned put up the same type numbers plummer did while in Arizona. the td to int ratio is very simiular the only quarterbacks who to throw for more TD's than Ints for Arizona are Plummer with 18 tds and 14 ints one season. Steve B. with 18tds and 17ints. And Lomax who had several good seasons.

But those QB's did NOT have talent around him.

Jake was given D-Bo, a great O-Line, great WR's, ect...

 

[shake-n-bake]

as far as the talent around them. Jake had Boston a good receiver. Esiason had Rob Moore a 2 time pro bowler. kreig had Centers who caught alot of balls for him and moore. Beuerlein had Ricky Proehl and Gary Clark a 4 time pro bowler. And Chandler had Proehl, Randall Hill and centers.

as far as the line goes the only 1000 yard rusher they ever produced while Jake was with the team was 1998 Murrell

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by shake-n-bake
All of the Quarterbacks mentioned put up the same type numbers plummer did while in Arizona. the td to int ratio is very simiular the only quarterbacks who to throw for more TD's than Ints for Arizona are Plummer with 18 tds and 14 ints one season. Steve B. with 18tds and 17ints. And Lomax who had several good seasons.

But the rest of the players actually had inferior talent than what Jake had.

If you are trying to convince yourself why you will like Plummer, you are going to have a very long season.

 

[Krangodnzr]

ADMINS: Move this to the bird droppings. Jake Plummer is not a Cardinal and shouldn't be discussed on the Cards forum.

Other Fans: IF you are going to post a Plummer thread, please don't post it in the Cards forum. We've rehashed these arguments for six years, and it is getting really annoying always seeing Plummer threads. Thanks.

 

[shake-n-bake]

Its not just a Jake question its a question about why quarterbacks havent done well in arizona

 

[jstadvl]

In all fairness

Boston was hurt last year, the running game didn't take off until Shipp got the start (8th or 9th game), the O line was in shambles, people were calling for Sander's head for the dropsies, tipped and otherwise catchable balls somehow wound up as int's.
On the other hand, Plummer repeatedly made the same mistakes on reads, did lock in on one receiver too much and at times was his own worst enemy. Will he win in Denver? Only if he cuts down on his OWN mistakes. I wish him the best and hope we you in the S.B.

 

[KingofCards]

Originally posted by Krangthebrain
But the rest of the players actually had inferior talent than what Jake had.

If you are trying to convince yourself why you will like Plummer, you are going to have a very long season.

Not to mention coming here and trying to convince us. Umm? What is the point again Shake and Bake? You believe Jake sucked because he was in Arizona. Who cares? You are wrong, but believe what you will and run along.

I think its funny Jake is going to replace Griese who has comparable arm strength but is a much better decision maker. Did he have like 4 int's one year? Have fun w/Jake, your gonna love him. I also like these guys who have seen Jake play like two times and are attempting to change our opinion of him. Uhhh get a life please. Or as the great S 11 would say:

"Shake 'n Bake: Please try to have sex before your mid 40's"

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by shake-n-bake
Its not just a Jake question its a question about why quarterbacks havent done well in arizona

Then you are trolling? Either way, you should post something like this in the bird droppings forum not the Cards forum.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Re: In all fairness

Originally posted by jstadvl

On the other hand, Plummer repeatedly made the same mistakes on reads, did lock in on one receiver too much and at times was his own worst enemy. Will he win in Denver? Only if he cuts down on his OWN mistakes.

Exactly. That's what Denver fans miss completely. The only problem that we've ever had with Plummer were his own mistakes.

I mean, I would get a lump in my throat every time he dropped back to pass. I don't think I've ever seen a QB that makes worse decisions.

 

[vince56]

Every year new offensive players were drafted or added through free agency to help make the job easier for plummer. In his tenure here he had Larry Centers, Freddie Jones, Rob Moore, David Boston, Frank Sanders, and speedsters McAddley and Jenkins to throw too, yet never had a QB rating approaching respectability. A large offensive line was built with 2-3 first round draft picks (was clement 1st round?) and 2 prime free agents (Kendall and Gruttadauria). Plummer's QB rating still sufferred, he rarely eclipsed 100 yards in the first half, and we struggled to ever score points unless we were down by a scheisseload.

Plummer has had several offensive coordinators, Jamison, Trestman, and Olsen. Jamison and Olsen were terrible coordinators IMO, but Trestman got way too much criticism. He was brought here to bring Plummer along in the heralded WCO. it never worked out. Plummer had happy feet that nearly got him killed and the coaches had to teach him to stay in the pocket. Our playoff year was with Trestman at OC, and that year we had a 1000 yard back in Murrell, running behind badass Lomas Brown and a bunch of scrub linemen.

Plummer never quite showed the intelligence or leadership to succeed as an NFL QB, and he never played well in the first 3 quarters. He ran 2 OCs out of town, one that lead the raiders to the super bowl, mind you.

Having said all that, I'm actually a Jake fan, and I will say if you're 1 TD down at the start of the 4th quarter, YOU WILL NOT LOSE. Jake is murder in the 4th quarter. Overall though, be glad you have Beuerlein, he's a solid QB, and you're going to need him.

 

[AndyO]

I've liked Jake since his days at ASU, and part of me was sorry to see him go, moreso out of sentimental value. But as a qualified, starting NFL QB, he leaves way too much to be desired. The 4th quarter comebacks and occasional excitement he can bring in no way make up for the horrendous decisions and out-and-out boneheaded plays he routinely makes. If you are looking for someone to play a mistake free, take-care-of-the-ball, high persentage offense, boy have you got the wrong guy.

It's true that Jake will win you some games in the 4th quarter. Whats also painfully true is that he will lose you more games in quarters 1-3.

 

[arthurracoon]

My advice:

Put Buerlien in for quarters 1-3 and put jake in during te 4th.

 

[Brighteyes]

As a mathematician, I have to laugh at your argument. You've conveniently selected the 'best case' years of these idiots to make your claim.

Steve Beuerline's rating in the first 4 years hovered in the 66 to 78 range. The fifth year he went to Arizona, and immediately jumped up to 82, his best ever. The year he left Arizona he had his worst year ever, at a rating of 60, at Jacksonville. He had 3 years where his Int exceeded his TD, at Dallas, AZ, and Jacksonville respectively. Cut after a single year for the Jags, he went on to the Panthers and matured.

Esaison had a passing percentage for his career of 57%; his one year in Arizona he was at 56%. About every 4 years in his career he'd have a one or two season streak of more interceptions than TDs, and the one in Arizona was not his worse at all.

I didn't bother to look up the rest.

Yes, we haven't had a running game in quite a while. That changed last year with Shipp, and we're in a better position this year than ever.

I think you'll find a better corellation between QBs and their years experience, than trying to do some silly theory that Arizona is a proving ground for great QBs - as soon as they leave.

 

[Duckjake]

Shake, the one thing the Cardinals have not had in most of their previous 15 years in the valley of the Sun is a defense. Check the stats. They have been outscored by almost 100 pts a season for most of those years and have usually given up huge yardage on the ground. Only during the playoff run in '98 and 92'- 94' did the Cards do much of anything defensively. (Bugel's 92 and 93 teams had a stretch over two years, starting in midseason '92 where 14 of 16 losses were by a TD or less.)

Because of their poor D the Cards were often playing from behind. As anyone will tell you when you are playing catch up you are throwing more than normal and you will have more sacks and INT's as opposing D's know you gotta throw. This could be the reason so many QB's appear to have struggled more in AZ than with other teams.

Fortunately this is all going to change as IMO the Cards are getting ready to field the best Defense they've had in years.

 

[shake-n-bake]

As a mathematician, I have to laugh at your argument. You've conveniently selected the 'best case' years of these idiots to make your claim.

I disagree, I was actully looking for seasons to compare it with. take Beuerlein for example. you cant compare the 7 games he played in 1995 with jaxsonville to the 16 he played with the cards. So i was looking for season where they played a simular amount of games. its the same for the other guys I was looking at seasons where they played a simular amount of games. It gives you a more accurate comparison.

I think you'll find a better corellation between QBs and their years experience, than trying to do some silly theory that Arizona is a proving ground for great QBs - as soon as they leave.

I can agree with that. maybee they just became more mature and learned thier weekeness later in thier carrers but it still doesnt explain why some of them had better years before and after they got to arizona.

How do you feel that Blake will fare with the current recivers and running backs on the team ?

 

[Redrage]

Question: do you really want to compare Jake Plummer to a bunch of journeymen and over-the-hill has-beens? That's what the Cards employed for years before Jake. Though I can see a lot of validity in comparing Gelbaugh to Plummer.

 

[shake-n-bake]

Question: do you really want to compare Jake Plummer to a bunch of journeymen and over-the-hill has-beens

I dunno Gannon was a journeyman and so was brad Johnson and both of them were in the superbowl. and speaking of Journeymen you got one in your camp his name is Jeff blake.

 

[Houdini]

Only 2 teams pursued Jake as a free agent. The Bears and Denver. If Jake was so great, he would have had teams everywhere knocking at his door in a QB deleted league.

Parcells didn't want him in Dallas, and he's developed more QBs than Shanahan ever did. Shanahan inherited Elway, he didn't develop him. Parcells helped develop Simms, Bledsoe, and even helped resurrect Testeverde's career with the Jets when he took them to the AFC championship game. If Parecells doesn't think he could win with Plummer, I have no reason to believe anyone could win with Plummer.

 

[shake-n-bake]

Parcells didn't want him in Dallas, and he's developed more QBs than Shanahan ever did. Shanahan inherited Elway

Your right Shanahan inherited Elway he was only his Offensive Coordinator from 1985-1987 then Quarterbacks Coach from 1989- 1991 clearly he didnt do anything to devople Elway. He was Offensive Coordinator for the 49ers from 1992-1994 and while there a guy named Young went to the Pro Bowl each year. so clearly he has no idea on how to devolpe a QB. lets see Elway has more regular season wins than in other Quarterback in the history of the game. and that young guy wasnt he the most prolific passer in history of the NFL while Shanahan was his OC.


But i guess if Parcels says its not possible it must not be after all he coached sims, vinny, and Bledsole. but wait thats odd only one of those guys has a ring both of Shanahan's guys got rings while he was working with them.........hmmmmm

Lets see since Shanahan started Coaching in the NFL (1985) his teams have been to the Superbowl 7 times played in the playoffs 12 times, played in Division Championship games 10 times and won 3 superbowls clearly this guy is overrated

 

[Houdini]

Originally posted by shake-n-bake
Your right Shanahan inherited Elway he was only his Offensive Coordinator from 1985-1987 then Quarterbacks Coach from 1989- 1991 clearly he didnt do anything to devople Elway. He was Offensive Coordinator for the 49ers from 1992-1994 and while there a guy named Young went to the Pro Bowl each year. so clearly he has no idea on how to devolpe a QB. lets see Elway has more regular season wins than in other Quarterback in the history of the game. and that young guy wasnt he the most prolific passer in history of the NFL while Shanahan was his OC.


But i guess if Parcels says its not possible it must not be after all he coached sims, vinny, and Bledsole. but wait thats odd only one of those guys has a ring both of Shanahan's guys got rings while he was working with them.........hmmmmm

Lets see since Shanahan started Coaching in the NFL (1985) his teams have been to the Superbowl 7 times played in the playoffs 12 times, played in Division Championship games 10 times and won 3 superbowls clearly this guy is overrated

If Shanahan is so great, why didn't he develop a QB in Oakland so he wouldn't get fired as the head coach there?

I like how you said Shanahan developed Young as an offensive coordinator with the 49ers. Seems to me Shanahan inherited Young. Holmgren was the offensive coordinator there with Young before Shanahan coached Young. If you are going to bring offensive coordinators into this, seems to me Holmgren helped Young more than Shanahan. Holmgren also coached Young at BYU.

Shanahan was the one who gave Griese the big contract. You would think if Shanahan is so great, he would either have developed Griese or not offered him such a big contract in the first place to screw their cap space. Face it. Shanahan’s record as a head coach without Elway is nothing to brag about. If Shanahan didn’t inherit Elway, Shanahan would be just another average coach.