May 14th, Is Peja Samardziski for real?

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Is Peja Samardziski for real?

By Chad Ford
NBA Insider
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Friday, May 14
Updated: May 14
12:46 PM ET

NEW YORK (May 11, 2004) -- Peja Samardziski is a kid -- a big kid -- living a dream. He sits in a tiny plastic seat inside Continental Arena, his huge knees pushed up against his chest, and stares out at the sea of fans cheering for the Nets in Game 4 of the Eastern Conference semifinals.
His eyes are bigger than his shoe size at the moment.



Peja Samardziski is living a dream.
"Wow!" he says several times as he takes in the atmosphere. "This is better than I could have imagined," he said.
Richard Jefferson takes the ball on the wing, sprints toward the basket and makes a huge dunk over Rasheed Wallace. The crowd goes wild. Samardziski, just three days removed from a cold, musty gym in Belgrade, goes wild right along with them.
"Did you see that?" Samardziski says in an excited tone. "How do you say? He was posterized?"
The Nets go on a 10-point run and the crowd is now standing on the feet cheering "Ken-yon Mar-tin." The Nets call a time out. The music blares. The cheerleaders rush onto the court. T-shirts are flying into the stands. Jay-Z and Beyonce are cheering just feet away courtside.
"I love this game," Samardziski says with a huge smile. "I can't wait to get out there."
After the time out, the Nets run a play where Martin essentially bulls his way in, throws Mehmet Okur out of the way, and dunks the ball to the thunderous approval of the masses.
Samardziski loves it in a naive way. Like every kid who's ever picked up a basketball, he envisions that he, like Martin, is doing the slamming. I've been around the league long enough to know that Samardziski, if he comes into the league next season, is much more likely to be the schlub on the floor that Martin is standing over. Even more accurately, he's most likely to be the bleached blond hair kid sitting on the floor wearing Pistons warm-ups.
The chants of "Ken-yon Mar-tin" began reverberating through the arena. "Someday that's going to be me," Samardziski says. "Samard-ziski! Samard-ziski" he begins chanting quietly with a wry smile. Behind him young autograph seekers are handing him towels, programs and ticket stubs for him to sign.
Not one of them knows who he is. What even an 8-year-old can tell, however, is that he's 7-foot-1 (I measured him myself), 255 pounds with wide shoulders and a picture perfect smile. Given the current trends in the NBA draft -- that alone guarantees him a shot at the first round. The kids now it. They can't pronounce his name. Have no idea where Macedonia is on a map. No clue about the fact that Peja, who just turned 18 a few weeks ago, still hasn't played a single minute for the Partizan senior team.
Size matters in the NBA draft. It matters more than age, playing experience or numbers. The rampaging flood of young international players heading into the draft all have something in common. Martynas Andriuskevicius, Andris Biedrins, Pavel Podkolzine, Kosta Perovic, Tiago Splitter, Peter John Ramos, Damir Omerhodzic, Johan Petro, Anderson Varejao, Uros Slokar and Ha Seung Jin all stand 6-foot-11 or taller. In fact, only four of the top 20 international players in the draft are shorter than 6-foot-11.
Teams need it. For the most part, the top players who America produces each year don't have it. So, over the course of the last few years, teams have taken to importing it.
Samardziski is the poster child of the trend in almost every way. He's huge, comes from great basketball stock, has been trained in one of the best basketball schools in the world, is young, has great upside and is fundamentally rock solid. But can he play?
Insider traveled to New York on Tuesday and Wednesday to find out . . .
Discovering Peja

BELGRADE, SERBIA (Dec. 16, 2002) -- Within hours of landing in Belgrade, a tip from a local talent scout leads us to a rundown gym in the heart of Belgrade. Rumor had it a 16-year-old, 7-foot-1 kid who is supposed to be the next great Yugoslavian big man would be there. . .



Insider Chad Ford with Kosta Perovic (left) and Peja Samardziski in Serbia in 2002.
The scene at the gym is reminiscent of anything you'd catch at a playground in New York City. Graffiti litters the walls of the dilapidated gym. Kids shoot baskets outside through hoops with no nets. Metal bars line every window. The gym is surrounded on each side by Belgrade's toughest housing projects. Broken-down cars line the sides of the road. Wary eyes watch our every move as we pull up to the gym.
When we open the door, we're blasted by an unfamiliar, but pungent smell. The Yugoslavians, for the most part, are chain smokers. The musty aroma of a crowded gym mixes with cigarette smoke and billows through the doors as we walk inside. Yugoslavian men line the wall on one side. There is only room for 30 or so people to watch the game from a small area behind the bench. The rest spill onto the court. Pistons scout Tony Ronzone and I are greeted by the former coach of Partizan, who ushers us onto the court. Ronzone and I stand in the far corner, our feet literally touching the international three point line. There are no sidelines. We, like many others, are literally standing on the court as the two teams played.
The court itself is a wreck. Green floors haven't been painted in years. There is no heat to speak of in the gym. The side walls are made of crumbling brick. The padding that is so common underneath each basket has long been torn away, exposing metal bars and unused hooks ready to impale or bludgeon anyone who goes hard to the basket out of control. The scoreboard is impossibly small. In the tiny enclosure, the crowd noise sounds as if we had stepped into Arco Arena, except not many fans in Sacramento yell in Serbian.
But when we walk in, the room grows unusually quiet. The silence lasts just a moment, but it is palpable. So is the look on many faces. I felt for a minute like we were in Rocky III, walking with Apollo Creed into an inner city gym in Los Angeles and feeling the fighters' pause and fix us with that fierce gaze, just for a few seconds. That's the only way I can describe the scene. It was the eye of the tiger. These kids were hungry. And they immediately recognized that something foreign had intruded on their isolated world.
The 7-foot-1 kid we've heard about, Peja Samardziski, is dominating on both ends of the court. He rebounds in traffic, makes precision passes out of the double teams, shows footwork that would put most NBA big men to shame and then spots up for a 3 when the game is winding down and his team is trailing. Most impressive is the kid's body. His shoulders are huge, and he has a nice center of gravity that allows him to wear down his defender in the post. It's hard to believe that if this kid lived in the U.S., he'd be only a sophomore in high school right now.
Samardziski hasn't even made it onto the senior team, but he's already dreaming about the NBA. He idolizes Tim Duncan. "He's the smartest big man in the league," Peja says.
Peja is full of stories. He's actually from Macedonia and comes from a basketball family. His father was a star in Macedonia and took Peja with him wherever he played. Peja says he's been playing since he was 3. He wants me to know that he's not just a big man. He won two 3-point contests at a basketball camp last year. Two years ago he took it upon himself to guard Tony Parker. "He is very fast. I try to get down low to keep up with him. I do an OK job. But after the game, my back hurts for two days. I should probably stick to guarding big guys. What do you think?"

Two years later
THE SPORTS CLUB/LA (May 12, 2004) -- The smoke filled air is gone. The smell of sweat, fear and pain has vanished. The dingy green floors have been replaced by a shiny, new wood grain court. The rusted out lockers are now solid oak. Bleachers now line the walls. Soccer moms on power walks with their 2-year-olds walk by and barely notice the 7-foot-1 kid dribbling between his legs at mid court.
If the dingy old gym in Belgrade resembled Mr. T's workout digs in Rocky III, then this place -- The Sports Club/LA on the upper east side of Manhattan -- resembles the Vegas-like workout space Rocky chose to work out in his first fight with Clubber Lang. The place is gorgeous, spacious and new. Every elliptical comes with its one personal plasma TV hooked up to Direct TV and 275 channels for your viewing pleasure. Personal masseuses walk the hallways. Pilates classes are going on next door. Peja Samardziski isn't in Serbia anymore.



Samardziski has developed a strong low-post game.
Five minutes in the gym with Samardziski are all it takes for the memories to begin flooding back. He is, without a doubt, the most fundamentally sound big man you'll ever find at his age.
He has a picture perfect shot. He lets the ball go high over his head with a feathery touch. Every shot has a beautiful arc and gently swishes inside the net. He can shoot the ball effortlessly from anywhere on the court and owns a very quick release. He'll be an unbelievable pick-and-pop guy. He shoots about 85 percent from the free-throw line. He's also developed a strong enough low-post game to be reckoned with in the paint.
When he catches the ball on the block, he uses a nice baseline fade away that goes in at about a 90 percent clip. He also owns a sweet baby hook that he can hit with both his left and right hand. Peja also proves in several drills that he's an excellent ball handler and passer. He can dribble with either hand, between his legs and behind his back. He can also pass with either hand and makes several nice precision passes from the block.
He projects to a high-post center in the NBA based on his body frame and skills. He has wide shoulders, high hips and a very solid lower body. His body isn't chiseled (he's just begun lifting weights) but there isn't an ounce of fat on him. According to his trainers, he has a very solid core and is strong for his size and age. At one point they try to beat him to death with a big black medicine ball by repeatedly jamming it in his gut. At another point they take to whacking him with plastic bats as he shoots. Peja's response draws laughter from everyone, "Is that all you got?"
Samardziski also has something else going for him. He speaks fluent English and has an engaging personality. He's funny, talkative and very knowledgeable about the game. Unlike many Euros who tend to be shy and brooding, teams will be able to market Samardziski. The press and the fans will love him.
After the workout we measure him at 7-foot-1 with shoes. He has a 7-foot-2 wingspan, a 9-foot-2 standing reach and weighs 255 pounds after a strenuous two-hour workout. He should be able to get to 270 or 280 with proper weight training.
There's no question that Peja has high-lottery talent, but several things are holding him back. The biggest knock is his athleticism. His lateral quickness and jumping ability both leave a lot to be desired. He's not unathletic, but, because of his frame, it's unlikely that he'll ever be considered a good athlete. He plays below the rim for the most part and, as he wears down over the workout, misses a few dunks as he struggles to get up. Scouts hate the way he runs, though that can be changed. He runs the floor very stiffly with a straight back and a kind of mechanical motion. That's not an uncommon knock on European big men and it can be changed with the right training. Even Pau Gasol suffered from that a bit during workouts.



Samardziski is guarded by Damir Omerhodzic in workouts
Probably just as troublesome is his relative lack of playing experience and exposure. Samardziski is still playing on Partizan's junior team -- not the highest level of competition in the world. While some scouts see that as a problem, others think it's better than having him waste away on the senior team bench all season. With two other top-notch NBA prospects -- Nenad Kristic and Kosta Perovic -- in front of him, Samardziski wasn't getting any playing time on Partizan anyway.
The good news is that Samardziski played in roughly 100 games this season. In addition to Partizan's junior team, he plays on Serbia's under-20 team and also plays in the Serbia league against older veterans in their thirties. He also goes up in practice every day against Kristic and Perovic.
The bad news is that several NBA scouts and GMs who recently traveled to Serbia to watch him play in several junior games walked away unimpressed. One GM told Insider that he felt that Samardziski didn't really play big. He spent most of the game hanging around the perimeter and never really mixed it up in the paint. While he was impressed with his fundamentals -- he questioned whether he really had the skills to be a center in the league. Another scout was bothered by his relative lack of athleticism. "Can you name the last unathletic big man who was a star in this league?" he asked rhetorically. Vlade Divac, Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Rik Smits and Patrick Ewing all come to mind immediately, but that isn't enough to sway this scout.
Others who've seen him play aren't nearly as down on him. One NBA executive called him the best international prospect in the draft -- period. "He really reminds me of Vlade Divac," the executive told Insider. "Vlade wasn't a great athlete and didn't like to spend much time in the paint when he was drafted either. The thing about Vlade was that he was so smart and so fundamentally sound that he could outplay guys who were stronger and more athletic. This kid's a better athlete and stronger than Vlade ever was. While he's not as crafty yet, he's got the intelligence and the fundamentals to get there."
Another international scout agrees. "That's the problem with international scouting," the scout told Insider. "Guys that go see a kid play once or twice never get a great feel. Samardziski plays that way because that's the way his coach wants him to play. Serbians expect their big men to handle the ball and shoot from the perimeter. In the junior leagues, it's all about developing those skills. I've seen him enough to know that he can do all the post stuff too. It's just going to take a little re-programming. But to say the kid can't play in the paint? That's just false."
The relative lack of information and the divergent scouting reports on Peja really put his stock up in the air. So does his contract situation with Partizan. Partizan (owned Divac) is already losing Kristic to the Nets this year. Perovic has also entered the draft, though there are questions about whether the team will be allowed to go to the NBA this year.
Samardziski's agent, Marc Cornstein, received permission from the club to bring him to the U.S. and get him working out. While Cornstein won't divulge exactly what Samardziski's buyout number is, he told Insider he's very confident that Samardziski could get out of his contract if he's drafted in the lottery or mid-first round this year. Speculation has been running rampant for the past month that a team in the late lottery or early mid-first round has already promised Samardziski that it will draft him.
Where there's smoke, there may be some fire. While Cornstein is allowing any NBA team to fly to New York to watch Samardziski work out, the number of teams Samardziski is actually traveling to for workouts will be fairly small.
That leads to the ultimate question: Where is he projected in the draft? He's an eye-of-the-beholder type of player. For disciplined teams that rely on half-court offenses and need skilled big men who can pass, shoot and make decisions on the floor, he'll be a great fit. He'd be perfect on a team like the Jazz or Spurs, for example. For teams that want a rugged, athletic big man who blocks shots and runs the floor -- he's not the best choice.
For now, all Samardziski wants to do is wear that NBA jersey. "This has been my dream since I was very small," Samardziski said. "I've worked so hard to get here. I just hope that someone will believe in me."
He just might get his wish.


:wave:
 

elindholm

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Moral of the story: Really big European scrubs aren't any better than really big American scrubs, but the Euros get drafted higher.
 

F-Dog

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elindholm said:
Moral of the story: Really big European scrubs aren't any better than really big American scrubs, but the Euros get drafted higher.

What are you talking about? The kid can shoot, which is more than you can say for the big American scrubs. I mean, would you really take the HS White Guy, Robert Swift, over the 'next Vlade'? ;)


Samardziski = Baby Drobnjak :p
 

George O'Brien

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Samardziski has rarely been ranked by anyone as being taken much before 20, so I'm not really sure he has been overrated.

In a sense the problem is fitting players to scheme. The Suns need a rugged, athletic shot blocker/defender who can run. That's why I don't like guys like Samardziski and Perovic, even though they could turn out to be quality players. They just don't look like a good fit even if they were closer to being NBA ready.
 

George O'Brien

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He's not only a scrub, he is a lot less effective than Voskuhl:

Predrag Drobnjak
Los Angeles Clippers
Position: C
Height: 6-11 Weight: 272
From: Serbia-Montenegro
Player file | Team stats

2003-04 Statistics
PPG 6.3
RPG 3.2
APG .6
SPG .36
BPG .39
FG% .393
FT% .849
3P% .306
MPG 15.6

Jake Voskuhl
Phoenix Suns
Position: C
Height: 6-11 Weight: 245
College: Connecticut '00
Player file | Team stats

2003-04 Statistics
PPG 6.6
RPG 5.2
APG .9
SPG .64
BPG .38
FG% .507
FT% .740
3P% .000
MPG 24.3

Drobnjak could be the worst shooting center in the NBA.
 

BMF

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sunsfn said:
Have no idea where Macedonia is on a map.

:wave:
I haven't read the rest of the article yet..... but are people really that dumb????
 

Lars the Red

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George O'Brien said:
He's not only a scrub, he is a lot less effective than Voskuhl:

Predrag Drobnjak
Los Angeles Clippers
Position: C
Height: 6-11 Weight: 272
From: Serbia-Montenegro
Player file | Team stats

2003-04 Statistics
PPG 6.3
RPG 3.2
APG .6
SPG .36
BPG .39
FG% .393
FT% .849
3P% .306
MPG 15.6

Jake Voskuhl
Phoenix Suns
Position: C
Height: 6-11 Weight: 245
College: Connecticut '00
Player file | Team stats

2003-04 Statistics
PPG 6.6
RPG 5.2
APG .9
SPG .64
BPG .38
FG% .507
FT% .740
3P% .000
MPG 24.3

Drobnjak could be the worst shooting center in the NBA.

Of course given the same MPG you'd get more points, about the same in every other catagory and the likelyhood of increases in percentages since offensive players generally improve the more they are in the flow of the game.
 

Lars the Red

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elindholm said:
Moral of the story: Really big European scrubs aren't any better than really big American scrubs, but the Euros get drafted higher.
The Euros are head and shoulders above the Americans from a fundimental standpoint. Better shooters, passers, ball-handlers, easier to work with from a coaching standpoint, fewer off court distractions, a pure form of the game. Basically, they're what we used to be 20, 30, even 40 years ago. Style over substance has been the problem in the NBA for years and with attendance slipping and TV ratings dwindling, Sterno the Great is finally starting to see the error of his ways. The Euros bring back the sport of basketball. The Americans are still thinking that the show of basketball is going to survive. The Americans are wrong.

Shaq is not going to be around more than another 5 years or so, so the need for an inside mauler isn't going to be that great. I truely believe that over the next few years we will see the NBA begin a transition from the current form of basketball back to one that brings back the beauty of the game. The Suns could very well build a young, entertaining team mixing the skills of talented, centered American players with those of some talented, well rounded International players giving us the best of both worlds. I don't know about you but the idea of watching a team that plays like the Mavs or Kings is way more interesting to me than watching the Pistons or Sixers.
 
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Chaplin

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Lars the Red said:
The Euros are head and shoulders above the Americans from a fundimental standpoint. Better shooters, passers, ball-handlers, easier to work with from a coaching standpoint, fewer off court distractions, a pure form of the game. Basically, they're what we used to be 20, 30, even 40 years ago. Style over substance has been the problem in the NBA for years and with attendance slipping and TV ratings dwindling, Sterno the Great is finally starting to see the error of his ways. The Euros bring back the sport of basketball. The Americans are still thinking that the show of basketball is going to survive. The Americans are wrong.

Shaq is not going to be around more than another 5 years or so. The Suns could very well build a young, entertaining team mixing the skills of talented, centered American players with those of some talented, well rounded International players.

Agree that American players tend to be more individual, but I don't agree that as players, the Euros are better than Americans. That just isn't true, and has never been proven to be true.

There are perhaps just a handful of true international players with "star" status in the NBA (Tony Parker, Dirk Nowitski, Peja Stojakovic and Pau Gasol are probably the highest profile), whereas there are at least 2 dozen American players that can say the same thing.

True, the Euros probably can bring back the concept of team ball, and they are definitely less trouble-makers than the Americans, but we still have the greatest players on the planet.
 

Lars the Red

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Chaplin said:
Agree that American players tend to be more individual, but I don't agree that as players, the Euros are better than Americans. That just isn't true, and has never been proven to be true.

There are perhaps just a handful of true international players with "star" status in the NBA (Tony Parker, Dirk Nowitski, Peja Stojakovic and Pau Gasol are probably the highest profile), whereas there are at least 2 dozen American players that can say the same thing.

True, the Euros probably can bring back the concept of team ball, and they are definitely less trouble-makers than the Americans, but we still have the greatest players on the planet.
Again, it boils down to what type of league we are talking about. The Euros in International competition have been more than a match for all but the very elite NBA lead teams. The Superstar rules don't apply there and the rules of the game (traveling, brawling, carrying the ball) are enforced.

I watched a great show on HBO with Gumbel on the Euro organizations and how they've changed in recent years. When I got out of college, we (American players) were a hot commidity so teams were limited to 2 per team. Being one of the 2 players meant plenty of shots and plenty of opportunity to make good cash. Playing over-seas was a blast. Now, those same teams don't really like the American players. They find them disruptive and lacking in most of the skills that their players take for granted. They don't like the drills they are expect to do, they don't like the team-style defense they are expected to play, they don't like the amount of practice time the Europeans tend to utilize.

There is no arguing that the Americans are still the most physically gifted, but the idea that others may not be better Basketball Players is outdated. The style of game that the NBA is currently playing is formatted for the athletic player. The International game rewards those that play a complete game. All things being equal, more Euros have would fall into the elite player catagory than Americans based on the International game. How many of the All-Stars would you consider great shooters? Great passers? A guy like Ben Wallace is a wonderful rebounder and shot blocker, but his shooting ability, passing skills and ball handling are absolutely horrific, yet we see him as an elite player in the NBA. He'd obviously play for many International teams, but his contributions wouldn't come close to what he's able to do in the NBA. His game isn't complete enough.
 
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Lars the Red said:
There is no arguing that the Americans are still the most physically gifted, but the idea the others may be better Basketball Players is outdated. The style of game that the NBA is currently playing is formatted for the athletic player. The International game rewards those that play a complete game.

Well, you post some interesting points, with of course, some validity, but in reality, I'd take the top 30 or so American NBA players and put them up one-on-one against ANY current player in Europe, and IMO, it wouldn't even be a game, it'd be a massacre.

The European game may have more of the fundamentals, but come on, the Euro game is soft. Does that make the American game less than a game? Of course not. If you're going to count the fact that the rules might be enforced more in Europe, you've got to accept the fact that 90% of European players right now couldn't handle the pounding that is done in the American game.
 

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Chaplin said:
Well, you post some interesting points, with of course, some validity, but in reality, I'd take the top 30 or so American NBA players and put them up one-on-one against ANY current player in Europe, and IMO, it wouldn't even be a game, it'd be a massacre.

The European game may have more of the fundamentals, but come on, the Euro game is soft. Does that make the American game less than a game? Of course not. If you're going to count the fact that the rules might be enforced more in Europe, you've got to accept the fact that 90% of European players right now couldn't handle the pounding that is done in the American game.
The Euro game is pure. It's what the game of basketball was for years, long before David Stern completely ruined it. If you took the top 100 players in the NBA and Internationally and had them play head to head for an entire season, being officiated by non-NBA officials and by the rule book, you'd see the overall quality of the internationals being superior. None of them are going to be able to stop Kobe, Tracy, Garnett individually, but the team defenses would at least keep them from going wild. That puts the pressure on the players who's skills (or lack of them) aren't able to contribute in an overall game. The Euros don't have 3 members of a team go stand by half court and watch a two man game because none of the 3 have the ability to hit the broadside of a barn. They have 10 guys that can score. Not all equally well of course, but they at least force defenses to cover them.

I've seen all of the 'pounding game' I care to. It's pretty obvious that most basketball fans are pretty sick of it too. The game as it's being played currently is failing and needs to go back to it's roots. Time will tell, but I believe the change is already in the works.
 

thegrahamcrackr

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Lars the Red said:
The Euro game is pure. It's what the game of basketball was for years, long before David Stern completely ruined it.


If I am not mistaken, if it wasn't for David Stern the NBA could have easily fallen apart. You seem to have a very large distaste for how Stern has handled the NBA, but I think you would find that most people feel he is by far the best commisioner among the major pro sports.

Anyways, comparing the Euro game and the American game is worthless. If Americans would taught to play a Euro style of game from a young age, they would play much better in that mold. Just like if the Euros were taught to be more physical from a younger age, then they would be better suited for the NBA.

It is like when people were trying to compare football and basketball players as athletes. You just cant make an accurate comparrison.

About that Euro's playing "pure" basketball stuff. That is just nonsense. "Pure" basketball is going out to the park with a bunch of friends and playing for the sake of having fun. Professional sports can never be "pure", its just a rule.
 

elindholm

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My point has been hijacked. I was talking about scrubs. These over-hyped under-strong European "projects" aren't the guys playing competitive games against the U.S. in international competition. They are bench-warmers in second- and third-tier leagues. For some reason, there are U.S. scouts and "analysts" who think that a European guy who can't earn minutes has the "potential" to be an NBA player. Tskitishvili, so far, is the poster child for this trend of misconception, but he may get supplanted by Milicic.

My point was, if the guy can't play, he can't play. Allowances for age don't do much for me -- everyone cites Jermaine O'Neal, but in fact there are very few players who went from nothing to something during their college-age years.
 

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It's no secret that the best National Teams in basketball are populated by players who are permanent fixtures in the NBA.

What about defense? Which European player outside of maybe Drazen Petrovic or Arvydas Sabonis has EVER been good at defense? Dirk is generally considered the best intl player in the league, but he is also one of the league's worst defenders. In fact, if you consider him a "superstar", I'd venture to say he is the worst defender out of all the "superstars".

The game is more than having a good shooting touch, which is pretty much the only thing that the Euros have going for them.
 

George O'Brien

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Chaplin said:
It's no secret that the best National Teams in basketball are populated by players who are permanent fixtures in the NBA.

What about defense? Which European player outside of maybe Drazen Petrovic or Arvydas Sabonis has EVER been good at defense? Dirk is generally considered the best intl player in the league, but he is also one of the league's worst defenders. In fact, if you consider him a "superstar", I'd venture to say he is the worst defender out of all the "superstars".

The game is more than having a good shooting touch, which is pretty much the only thing that the Euros have going for them.

I'd include Kirilenko in the list of good Euro defenders, but it is a problem. If incidental contact is routinely called as fouls, it is hard to recondition players to be physical defenders. At the same time, it is easier to score when being fouled if you go to the basket than when shooting jump shots so coaches are constantly trying to get guys to attack the basket in the NBA.

The simple truth is that the NBA is not going to get "pretty" basketball until it changes how the games are being called. Most successful coaches teach street fight, grind it out basketball because it wins games - especially in the playoffs. How else can we describe the Pacers 73-70 win over the Heat?

That being said, the Suns will have to be able to play that way if they want to become a championship team.
 

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elindholm said:
My point has been hijacked. I was talking about scrubs. These over-hyped under-strong European "projects" aren't the guys playing competitive games against the U.S. in international competition. They are bench-warmers in second- and third-tier leagues. For some reason, there are U.S. scouts and "analysts" who think that a European guy who can't earn minutes has the "potential" to be an NBA player. Tskitishvili, so far, is the poster child for this trend of misconception, but he may get supplanted by Milicic.

I guess if you wanted to put a positive spin on it, you could say that Pao Gasol is the poster child for this. Every 'misconception' is going to have its hits and misses.

If there's one foreign bench-warmer that everybody felt would be a star before the draft, it's Milicic. If Darko busts, it will be like Pervis Ellison busting--everybody will just shake their heads and go, "oops". We're still a long way from that, though...

elindholm said:
My point was, if the guy can't play, he can't play. Allowances for age don't do much for me -- everyone cites Jermaine O'Neal, but in fact there are very few players who went from nothing to something during their college-age years.

If that's true, then the Suns are in trouble. Joe Johnson seems to have already joined the select, at least. :)
 

elindholm

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I guess if you wanted to put a positive spin on it, you could say that Pao Gasol is the poster child for this.

Was Gasol a scrub in Europe? This is an honest question; I don't know the answer. I thought he was already pretty well established over there when he was drafted.

Joe Johnson seems to have already joined the select, at least.

Hmm, I don't follow you there. Didn't Johnson play two years in College? He showed flashes right away in his rookie year (when Pierce was injured), so the only progress he may have made since then would be in his mental approach -- and the jury's still out on that.
 

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F-Dog said:
If there's one foreign bench-warmer that everybody felt would be a star before the draft, it's Milicic. If Darko busts, it will be like Pervis Ellison busting--everybody will just shake their heads and go, "oops". We're still a long way from that, though...



:)


I wasn't high on Darko since the Chad Ford articles (before Draft) but some might remember at that time - Kirilenko was 1 of few Euro's I was high on. I still prefer American athletic prospects but mixtures of both works for me - I really like Lampe and Cabarkapa could be a good role player.

Chad Ford did say Darko would change how the game is played etc. I wasn't buying hype at time but now that he didn't live up to hype ROOKIE YEAR - Darko could always turn it around similar to Chauncey Billups etc. (I just haven't seen him play to determine performance).
 

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Chaplin said:
It's no secret that the best National Teams in basketball are populated by players who are permanent fixtures in the NBA.

What about defense? Which European player outside of maybe Drazen Petrovic or Arvydas Sabonis has EVER been good at defense? Dirk is generally considered the best intl player in the league, but he is also one of the league's worst defenders. In fact, if you consider him a "superstar", I'd venture to say he is the worst defender out of all the "superstars".

The game is more than having a good shooting touch, which is pretty much the only thing that the Euros have going for them.
One of the major differences in the styles played on defense is the American game now is built on very aggressive, physical man to man D. The Euros aren't allowed to play as physical because their games are officiated properly. And don't accused me of being some softy, I was a 6'8" 255lb PF coming out of college. I loved to play physical. The current game has gone from solid, physical play to a ridiculous, mauling style that completely reduces the ability of players to utilize their offensive skills. And by offensive skills I mean more than just casting up 3 pointers and dunking.

In response to the post that asked if I didn't appreciate what Stern had done for the league, the answer is no, I don't particularly appreciate what he did. Stern in many ways got lucky to have gotten Larry and Magic into the league at basically the same time it was desperately in need of some help. They were the highest profile players coming out of college, just having completed one of the more storied runs in NCAA tourney history. They also magically became members of two of the more high profile and storied franchises. They became impact players on two very talented teams and the rest is history. What Stern did after that is what I see as the downfall of the NBA. He created an individual sport out of a team sport. Larry vs. Magic, Michael vs. Sir Charles.....what the hell happened to McHale? Parrish? Ainge? Kareem? Worthy? Moses? Why was it suddenly important to only highlight a couple of guys? And isn't it strange that that was about the time when the officiating started to get really bizarre? Superstars never foul. Superstars can take 5 running steps and start and stop dribbling 3 times without a call as long as they make a cool looking move. Bullschmitt! Nothing cheapens a product quicker than propping it up when it doesn't need it. Michael was a great player and would have made countless number of great plays without the help of the officials. There are almost 90 games in a season, does it really matter if during some of those games, the star players actually get into foul trouble or foul out? Isn't that why you have a few extra guys on the bench? Absurd.

The argument is probably pointless, but it's obvious by some of the things we've seen the last couple of years that even a mallet head like Stern can start to recognize the product he's putting out there isn't putting many real basketball fans in the seats. The passion and appreciation we see during March Madness shows you that real fans like to see real basketball. If the league bought the rights to the European leage and started broadcasting many of their games you would see that many people would watch those with a greater regularity than the NBA. Why? Not because their anti-American, but because the style of play is much closer to the style most of us grew up playing and watching.

The current NBA is dying and it needs to just go away. The game needs to go back to it's roots.
 

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Elindholm, "My point was, if the guy can't play, he can't play. Allowances for age don't do much for me -- everyone cites Jermaine O'Neal, but in fact there are very few players who went from nothing to something during their college-age years."

I know this was supposed to clarify something but I have no idea of the point you're trying to make with the last statement. Basketball players reach their peak between 26 and 30 but to me that it's as plain as the nose on your face that most players develope tremendously between the ages of 18 & 22. Kobe, KG and Kemp certainly did it in front of our eyes and as great as LaBron was this last year I'd be surprised if he wasn't still much improved three years hence. Closer to home there's Amare who, half way through that age span, has developed a great deal already. There are certainly guys like Bender, Kwame, Chandler and Curry who haven't fulfilled the promise they showed but even they have improved to some extent. Heck, if there wasn't some risk to picking guys at age 18 everyone would be drafted right out of HS.

All I can think is that the words 'nothing' and 'something' are sufficiently vague that they could be adjusted so that only Jermaine satisfied what you had in mind.
 

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I don't watch Euroleague games but the International Team USA games - officiating is the worse officiating I've seen. Only 2 refs and broadcasters constantly talk about how poor officiating is - every other play International players are complaining about something during game and get most of the calls. International players aren't as strong as USA but they do play physical and get away with some pretty bad calls.
 

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Lars the Red said:
One of the major differences in the styles played on defense is the American game now is built on very aggressive, physical man to man D. The Euros aren't allowed to play as physical because their games are officiated properly. And don't accused me of being some softy, I was a 6'8" 255lb PF coming out of college. I loved to play physical. The current game has gone from solid, physical play to a ridiculous, mauling style that completely reduces the ability of players to utilize their offensive skills. And by offensive skills I mean more than just casting up 3 pointers and dunking.

This sounds like you are underrating the value of defense. You say the "Euros aren't allowed" to play as physical because of the officiating, which you say is done "properly".

I don't know about you, but if I'm playing defense against somebody, I will play defense, not stand 2 feet away and let the guy drive or shoot over me. I'm going to do my best to prevent him from getting the advantage. You were a power forward, and you claim to love playing physical--which is why it is difficult to understand why you think playing soft is such an asset.
 

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Chaplin said:
This sounds like you are underrating the value of defense. You say the "Euros aren't allowed" to play as physical because of the officiating, which you say is done "properly".

I don't know about you, but if I'm playing defense against somebody, I will play defense, not stand 2 feet away and let the guy drive or shoot over me. I'm going to do my best to prevent him from getting the advantage. You were a power forward, and you claim to love playing physical--which is why it is difficult to understand why you think playing soft is such an asset.

The way I read Lars' post he was saying that what most people would call "playing physical" defense is actually a lot of fouling. I tend to agree. It goes both ways too. I know Shaquille O'Neal has got to be incredibly difficult to officiate, but he's a great example. He is allowed to hammer defenders and run them over. This should not be allowed as long as the defender has position. It doesn't matter whether the defender is completely dislodged by Shaq. On the same end of the court Shaquille O'Neal is basically mauled on a regular basis.

At first calling the games the way they should be would make for some long, ugly games with a ton of trips to the free-throw line. I don't think it would take too long for the players to adjust though. If they could start making it more difficult to pick up a charge, and start enforcing the defensive three second violations it would also help the offense.

Joe Mama
 

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