Game balls .....5-0

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

@DVontel stole my thunder.

I thought their offensive game plan (you know, Shanny's specialty?) was awful. All he had to do was run boot action over and over and hit a few passes over the middle and run the ball. He got cute. He left at least 6 points on the field in a 17-10 game. The end of that game would be A LOT different if it was 17-16. He didn't really make the Cardinals all pay for all of the cornerback injuries.

Demeco Ryans had a hell of a game plan. First team this year that rushed Murray correctly. And their pass coverage basic concept was to get physical downfield and force the refs to make calls (which they didn't mostly).

And there it is. Defray all credit for the defensive game plan and coaching hire (wasn’t everyone yelling how the wheels would come off losing salus?) away from the head coach. Remember, the niners weren’t the cardinals where they didn’t allow kliff to even choose his defensive coaches.

Also, in the same post you state that shanahan should’ve run bootlegs all day but also take advantage of the corners. Contradiction much? Shanahan realized he couldn’t take advantage of the corners due to starting a raw rookie qb who hadn’t started more than a game in two years prematurely. Of course he’s not going to take to the air. He’s going to keep the rock on the ground, keep clock running and shorten the game, do everything he can to keep it low scoring. All of which he did. And let’s not forget, they moved the ball and we’re literally inches from this being a 17-17 game. Was he overly aggressive on his fourth down calls? Obviously as they failed repeatedly. But I get his mindset: the cards came in as the highest scoring team so only way to give yourself a chance to beat them was take opportunities to score 7 when it presented itself instead of 3; and play keep away by hoping to convert on fourth downs thereby limiting cards possessions. Did it work? No. Did it give them a punchers chance at a win? Yes.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

@DVontel stole my thunder.

I thought their offensive game plan (you know, Shanny's specialty?) was awful. All he had to do was run boot action over and over and hit a few passes over the middle and run the ball. He got cute. He left at least 6 points on the field in a 17-10 game. The end of that game would be A LOT different if it was 17-16. He didn't really make the Cardinals all pay for all of the cornerback injuries.

Demeco Ryans had a hell of a game plan. First team this year that rushed Murray correctly. And their pass coverage basic concept was to get physical downfield and force the refs to make calls (which they didn't mostly).

And yes, Ryan’s’ D was an anti-Murray gem. Luckily I think there are obvious ways to counter the rush if (a) kliff recognizes them; and (b) kyler can control and reverse his natural tendency to bail with backside spinouts and step into pockets or scramble in the middle of the field.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

We must have watched a different game today. I saw Shanahan's team get stuffed on 4th and short a bunch of times. He left like, what? 6 points on the field today? Granted the Cardinals won by a TD, but the Niners could play the end of the game differently if the only needed a FG to win.

That's horrible coaching. His players on defense did enough to slow the Cardinals down and all he had to do was make smart decisions for his team and he didn't.

I think Shanahan is way overrated as a coach.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Here we go again the BS putting words in someone’s mouth - other than being outcoached yesterday, hating the 68 yard FG folly, and the continued mismanagement of timeouts I’ve been impressed with kliff this season. So no, I’ve never claimed our point spread this season is in spite of kliff.

So no, you are wrong. The scoring differential in other games has zero to do with how kliff and shanahan coaches in yesterday’s game. Awful argument. And by awful I mean one of the worst I’ve ever seen on ASFN as there’s literally no logic that could possibly support it.

While I agree with everything you said here. I'm not sure how Kliff didn't outcoach Shanahan yesterday.

You have different definition of outcoaching someone. What is it? I'm curious.

Shanahan killed himself by not putting points on the board time and time again.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

im not a vegas guy...but it has always been my understanding that the line has zero to do with how good the teams are really...it is strictly about balancing the money so bookmakers can make a profit.
too many people betting on niners?? Give az 12 points,... then as money comes in on az they slowly drop the line...9...6...3...2.5

cant have 2mil in bets on one team and only 50k in bets on the other or the bookmakers go out of business....in the old days they would get "whacked" for that

That is exactly the idea. When the team's aren't even, they are giving a point advantage to the other team to make up for it, only to the point where they can theoretically get the same amount of action on both sides, since most spread lines are -110. (makes sportsbooks money)

 

[Krangodnzr]

And there it is. Defray all credit for the defensive game plan and coaching hire (wasn’t everyone yelling how the wheels would come off losing salus?) away from the head coach. Remember, the niners weren’t the cardinals where they didn’t allow kliff to even choose his defensive coaches.

Also, in the same post you state that shanahan should’ve run bootlegs all day but also take advantage of the corners. Contradiction much? Shanahan realized he couldn’t take advantage of the corners due to starting a raw rookie qb who hadn’t started more than a game in two years prematurely. Of course he’s not going to take to the air. He’s going to keep the rock on the ground, keep clock running and shorten the game, do everything he can to keep it low scoring. All of which he did. And let’s not forget, they moved the ball and we’re literally inches from this being a 17-17 game. Was he overly aggressive on his fourth down calls? Obviously as they failed repeatedly. But I get his mindset: the cards came in as the highest scoring team so only way to give yourself a chance to beat them was take opportunities to score 7 when it presented itself instead of 3; and play keep away by hoping to convert on fourth downs thereby limiting cards possessions. Did it work? No. Did it give them a punchers chance at a win? Yes.

Right....it didn't work. And with a rookie QB, it was an even dumber call. I would give him more leeway with going for it on 4th down if he had a veteran, but a rookie?

Not once. Not twice. Not even just three times. He did it 5 times.

It's hilarious that Shanahan is held in such high regard around here even though Kliff now has a better winning percentage and if you go and read what Niners fans think, a lot of them think he's a good offensive coordinator masquerading as a head coach.

 

[CardNots]

By “right” you mean what’s going to balance the bets, not what they believe the spread of the game will actually be. Their sole goal is to net zero the bets not predict games.

Vegas doesn’t bet the public does. Vegas moves the line to balance the money. Vegas collects basically a fee to handle the money flow

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

While I agree with everything you said here. I'm not sure how Kliff didn't outcoach Shanahan yesterday.

You have different definition of outcoaching someone. What is it? I'm curious.

Shanahan killed himself by not putting points on the board time and time again.

I consider coaching in context. Who had the superior fact set and who maximized it or sid more with it.

For example if there was a race and I start out 10 yards behind you but lose that might seem like you ran a better race. But if I finished within 2 yards of you who was really faster?

Or if we were boxing and I had one arm tied behind my back and you won 7 of 12 rounds, who outfought who? You technically won the fight, but I’d think I was the superior fighter winning almost as many rounds having to fight with a single arm.

You may not agree with my assessment of how these two teams lined up against one and other, but before the game I saw:

Cardinals:
-4-0
-a leading mvp candidate at qb
-at home
-top scoring team in league
-missing #1 and #3 cbs

Niners:
-2-2
-a raw rookie qb making his first pro start having not started more than a single football game in two years starting bc of injury not bc he was considered ready
-on the road
-missing starting rb, starting te, both starting cbs

Regardless what pundits said about both teams prior to the season, at this juncture that looks like a primed fighter lining up against a one armed man. And the one armed man ended up a single score - a blown coverage, a Simmons slip on the goalline stand, a fumble return for a TD - from tying the fighter.

 

[Krangodnzr]

I consider coaching in context. Who had the superior fact set and who maximized it or sid more with it.

For example if there was a race and I start out 10 yards behind you but lose that might seem like you ran a better race. But if I finished within 2 yards of you who was really faster?

Or if we were boxing and I had one arm tied behind my back and you won 7 of 12 rounds, who outfought who? You technically won the fight, but I’d think I was the superior fighter winning almost as many rounds having to fight with a single arm.

You may not agree with my assessment of how these two teams lined up against one and other, but before the game I saw:

Cardinals:
-4-0
-a leading mvp candidate at qb
-at home
-top scoring team in league
-missing #1 and #3 cbs

Niners:
-2-2
-a raw rookie qb making his first pro start having not started more than a single football game in two years starting bc of injury not bc he was considered ready
-on the road
-missing starting rb, starting te, both starting cbs

Regardless what pundits said about both teams prior to the season, at this juncture that looks like a primed fighter lining up against a one armed man. And the one armed man ended up a single score - a blown coverage, a Simmons slip on the goalline stand, a fumble return for a TD - from tying the fighter.

Right. And if he kicked the damn field goals, they win. Hell if he kicked one field goal under your scenario they win.

So why would you go for it if you are starting a rookie QB who you admit isn't ready to start? Why? That's just dumb. That's poor coaching.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Vegas doesn’t bet the public does. Vegas moves the line to balance the money. Vegas collects basically a fee to handle the money flow

Vegas sets the line in the first place to drive as balanced betting as possible. Again it’s not a prognostication.

 

[MrYeahBut]

Vegas doesn’t bet the public does. Vegas moves the line to balance the money. Vegas collects basically a fee to handle the money flow

Great way to explain it. Thanks!

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Right. And if he kicked the damn field goals, they win. Hell if he kicked one field goal under your scenario they win.

So why would you go for it if you are starting a rookie QB who you admit isn't ready to start? Why? That's just dumb. That's poor coaching.

Because you’re only considering one side of the equation. If you’re facing the most explosive offense in the nfl you’re going to need points. At least that’s what I think a smart coach would think. At the one yard line you’re never going to be in a better position to get those points. And we all know from years of cardinals fans that FGs almost never win you games when you’re the dog.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Because you’re only considering one side of the equation. If you’re facing the most explosive offense in the nfl you’re going to need points. At least that’s what I think a smart coach would think. At the one yard line you’re never going to be in a better position to get those points. And we all know from years of cardinals fans that FGs almost never win you games when you’re the dog.

That makes sense the first time. Not the subsequent times.

And what do rookies tend to struggle to do? Execute when the game is on the line or in high leverage situations. We obviously don't agree on this point, but you have to at least admit that it's questionable?

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

That makes sense the first time. Not the subsequent times.

And what do rookies tend to struggle to do? Execute when the game is on the line or in high leverage situations. We obviously don't agree on this point, but you have to at least admit that it's questionable?

I’ve already said I thought he was too aggressive with the fourth downs. But you’ve got to admit that the niners outperformed their expectations and the cardinals underperformed theirs.

 

[oaken1]

I consider coaching in context. Who had the superior fact set and who maximized it or sid more with it.

For example if there was a race and I start out 10 yards behind you but lose that might seem like you ran a better race. But if I finished within 2 yards of you who was really faster?

Or if we were boxing and I had one arm tied behind my back and you won 7 of 12 rounds, who outfought who? You technically won the fight, but I’d think I was the superior fighter winning almost as many rounds having to fight with a single arm.

You may not agree with my assessment of how these two teams lined up against one and other, but before the game I saw:

Cardinals:
-4-0
-a leading mvp candidate at qb
-at home
-top scoring team in league
-missing #1 and #3 cbs

Niners:
-2-2
-a raw rookie qb making his first pro start having not started more than a single football game in two years starting bc of injury not bc he was considered ready
-on the road
-missing starting rb, starting te, both starting cbs

Regardless what pundits said about both teams prior to the season, at this juncture that looks like a primed fighter lining up against a one armed man. And the one armed man ended up a single score - a blown coverage, a Simmons slip on the goalline stand, a fumble return for a TD - from tying the fighter.

I see it as......

Two years ago most of this board, myself included, flamed the **** out of kliff for making those same coaching decisions.... with a rookie QB.... the only real difference is shanny actually has a legit defense to cover his ass.

But in this game.... kliff wasn’t the one making stupid decisions

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I see it as......

Two years ago most of this board, myself included, flamed the **** out of kliff for making those same coaching decisions.... with a rookie QB.... the only real difference is shanny actually has a legit defense to cover his ass.

But in this game.... kliff wasn’t the one making stupid decisions

Psst: I know it’s not the case with the cardinals where kliff had to have the gm select the head coach and Vance kinda does his own thing, but on other teams the head coach is responsible for the entire team. That includes the defense.

 

[Krangodnzr]

I’ve already said I thought he was too aggressive with the fourth downs. But you’ve got to admit that the niners outperformed their expectations and the cardinals underperformed theirs.

Which expectations? Preseason? Actually that would be a no because nearly every pundit including most of this board expected the Niners to be better. I didn't think they would be because 3 out of the past 4 years the Niners were trash.

Current expectations? The Cardinals were what? a 5.5 point favorite? That would mean that based on the betting line, the Cardinals met expecations.

To be clear, I don't care about expectations. Any given Sunday. The Niners have a great defense and great defenses travel well. I've always been much less concerned about their offense....hmmm.....

 

[Krangodnzr]

Psst: I know it’s not the case with the cardinals where kliff had to have the gm select the head coach and Vance kinda does his own thing, but on other teams the head coach is responsible for the entire team. That includes the defense.

But often the if the head coach is calling the offense or is an offensive guy, he usually isn't calling the defense nor making the defensive game plan, no?

Tons of mental gymnastics here to support the assertion that Shanahan is better than his sub-.500 record.

We saw firsthand yesterday why Shanahan has a losing record.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Which expectations? Preseason? Actually that would be a no because nearly every pundit including most of this board expected the Niners to be better. I didn't think they would be because 3 out of the past 4 years the Niners were trash.

Current expectations? The Cardinals were what? a 5.5 point favorite? That would mean that based on the betting line, the Cardinals met expecations.

To be clear, I don't care about expectations. Any given Sunday. The Niners have a great defense and great defenses travel well. I've always been much less concerned about their offense....hmmm.....

Yeah preseason. No. Even saying that is pretty silly of you and you know that. Coming into this game where do you think expectations were? And the betting line is just that - generated to even bets. It’s not a prognostication. You’re throwing out teeeeerrrrrible arguments.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Yeah preseason. No. Even saying that is pretty silly of you and you know that. Coming into this game where do you think expectations were? And the betting line is just that - generated to even bets. It’s not a prognostication. You’re throwing out teeeeerrrrrible arguments.

LOL. Ok brother.

I don't see why expectations matter. They don't, not even a little bit. They don't get you to the Super Bowl.

And the Cardinals met expecations. They won. They were aided by horrible decisions by Shanahan.

 

[Krangodnzr]

@Ouchie-Z-Clown

This tweet right here:

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

 

[Harry]

My first game ball goes to......

Rondale Moore..... that outstretched toe slider on the sidelines was an all-pro catch..... but the kids a rookie

Hop.... dude bailed Kyler out a couple times and just generally did his thing

James Connor.... when we needed three he pounded for six

JJ Watt.... big time players make big time plays in big time situations.... this is why we got Watt.... maybe his best game of the season

Kliff..... take notice Cardinals fans.... kliff out coached shanahan today

And maybe @Jersey Girl wants to hand this one out.....

Kyler Murray.... not statistically his best game.... but he played smart and played with guts.... this is how winning is done in the nfl

And per soonerlou..... we’ll toss a game ball to coach shanahan for making some head scratching calls today...

The Arizona Cardinals are 5-0
The Arizona Cardinals are Legit
Rejoice Cards fans....
I don’t have to buy my son a niners jersey

The Niners post-game show was brutal about Shanahan’s 4th down calls, though I thought it took great Cardinal plays to stop 2 of them.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

@Ouchie-Z-Clown

This tweet right here:

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

I don’t know why you are trying so hard to convince me that shanahan sucks when you’ve already admitted you think he’s a good coach.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

I consider coaching in context. Who had the superior fact set and who maximized it or sid more with it.

For example if there was a race and I start out 10 yards behind you but lose that might seem like you ran a better race. But if I finished within 2 yards of you who was really faster?

Or if we were boxing and I had one arm tied behind my back and you won 7 of 12 rounds, who outfought who? You technically won the fight, but I’d think I was the superior fighter winning almost as many rounds having to fight with a single arm.

You may not agree with my assessment of how these two teams lined up against one and other, but before the game I saw:

Cardinals:
-4-0
-a leading mvp candidate at qb
-at home
-top scoring team in league
-missing #1 and #3 cbs

Niners:
-2-2
-a raw rookie qb making his first pro start having not started more than a single football game in two years starting bc of injury not bc he was considered ready
-on the road
-missing starting rb, starting te, both starting cbs

Regardless what pundits said about both teams prior to the season, at this juncture that looks like a primed fighter lining up against a one armed man. And the one armed man ended up a single score - a blown coverage, a Simmons slip on the goalline stand, a fumble return for a TD - from tying the fighter.

I don't disagree with everything but your last paragraph.

With that said, if Shanahan plays more conservative on offense and didn't ask his rookie QB with one start to complete 5 different 4th down conversions, including 3 while they were in FG range, the game is likely much different. If you want to talk about only the 4th down plays, either Shanahan made poor coaching decisions, or Kliff/Vance outcoached Shanahan on the plays themselves.

Let's break it down a bit smaller. Has there ever been a coach that has outcoached the opponent and lost? IMO the game doesn't have to be a blow out to be out-coached.

 

[Krangodnzr]

I don’t know why you are trying so hard to convince me that shanahan sucks when you’ve already admitted you think he’s a good coach.

Heh, I think I shared the tweet because it encapsulates my thoughts on the Niners.

I mean, I think of Shanahan in a similar vein to what I think of Kingsbury. Good offensive mind, but I don't know if either are good head coaches.