Deal for JJ no sure bet

azdad1978

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Paul Coro
The Arizona Republic
Jul. 26, 2005 12:00 AM

The Suns brimmed in June with as much confidence about re-signing Joe Johnson as they would about defending the Pacific Division title.

This week, a pool of rising, nervous energy is swallowing up America West Arena. Several Suns organization staffers and others close to Johnson say they believe Managing Partner Robert Sarver will not match Atlanta's five-year, $70 million offer sheet, which Johnson cannot sign until next week after the free-agency signing moratorium was extended again Monday.

Once he signs an offer sheet, Phoenix would have a week to decide between matching the deal and saying goodbye to Johnson, a restricted free agent. Others still believe Sarver will match, but it is clear to all that he is unsure.



The Suns made re-signing Johnson a top priority this summer. They said they intended to maintain the team's core and would do everything "within reason" to do so. But this month's events surprised them.

The worst things that happened to hopes of retaining Johnson less expensively (the Suns offered $60 million for six years this month) were Seattle's and Milwaukee's re-signings of free agents Ray Allen and Michael Redd, respectively. Cleveland and Atlanta, teams with cap space, then switched their attention to Larry Hughes and Johnson.

Cleveland struck first with Hughes, a lower risk because he was an unrestricted free agent. His five-year, $70 million signing set the maximum-level bar for Johnson, whom Atlanta wants as a point guard.

The new collective bargaining agreement may have helped entice the Hawks into the fray, too. It cut the time allotted for a team to respond to an offer sheet from 15 days to seven. That would have left Atlanta's financial commitment tied up for less time if not for delays in finalizing the CBA.

Atlanta would not have become involved if it did not feel it had a logical shot, much like Phoenix's chase of Quentin Richardson last summer. Just as the Suns front-loaded Richardson's deal, Atlanta reportedly agreed to pay Johnson at least $20 million in the first year.

After Richardson (traded last month for Kurt Thomas) signed for $43.5 million last summer, Sarver declined to give Johnson the six-year, $50 million contract he desired, despite the staff's wishes. The combination of the two decisions still upsets Johnson, a teammate said.

Sarver proved prophetic in his first words to Johnson after they wound up $5 million apart last fall. He said: "Go out and have a good year and you're going to make a ton of money."

Sarver and Suns President and General Manager Bryan Colangelo declined comment Monday. Johnson's agents could not be reached.

One talked-about scenario has the Suns telling Johnson to take their offer, banking on loyalty, or he will wind up with Atlanta because the Hawks' offer is too much for Phoenix's budget. With Johnson signed to a maximum deal, Phoenix would be close to the luxury tax threshold with just six players in 2006-07, when Amaré Stoudemire's extension would begin.

After a hometown summer league game in Little Rock last week, Johnson told KATV-TV that he would sign Atlanta's offer sheet. Asked whether the Suns were doing anything extra to keep him, Johnson told KATV: "Not really. Atlanta, they came really strong. So you know, we're going to just sit back, wait and we're gonna see what's going to happen.

"Basically, it's pretty much done. To be honest, I'm pretty much . . . I'm gonna sign with Atlanta probably sometime (next week) and we're gonna wait and see if Phoenix is going to match."

If Phoenix is certain it will not match, it could seek a sign-and-trade deal to get some compensation. But any deal for a player would require Phoenix to take on almost as much salary, although it could be for a shorter time.

Those close to Johnson felt he wanted to stay with Phoenix, which still has his image on the Web page for season ticket sales. He said he would love to re-sign when he last left AWA but added that it was a business and it would be an "interesting" summer.

Phoenix's other priority was Stoudemire's extension. Johnson's possible departure won't sit well with the franchise big man, but nobody else can give him the money the Suns can (almost $90 million for six years). It may not even please Steve Nash, who already saw a team that he felt was close to a title get broken up in Dallas.

Johnson is slated to play Friday in Nash's charity game in Toronto. Will it be his last game with Nash, Stoudemire and Shawn Marion?


http://www.azcentral.com/sports/suns/articles/0726suns0726.html
 

sly fly

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Say it ain't so.

If Sarver doesn't match, holy terror will be unleashed on Mr. Sarver. Sarver will be run out of town, and this will define his legacy in PHX.

Don' be an ASS, Sarver.
 
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One thing that bothers me the most is that JJ is our best half-court player. I don't think it was a coincidence that Nash referred to him as arguably our MVP of the only playoff series he finished.

The playoffs still rely on many iso plays. Sarver has to match or we don't have a chance to beat the Spurs or Rockets in the playoffs. No JJ no ring.

I still say that Sarver matches and I really don't see what choice he has. There is only one owner that wouldn't re-sign a RFA under these circumstances and I hope Sarver doesn't follow his footsteps.
 
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Joe Mama

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Phoenix is certain it will not match, it could seek a sign-and-trade deal to get some compensation. But any deal for a player would require Phoenix to take on almost as much salary, although it could be for a shorter time.

You would think that someone whose primary job is to follow an NBA franchise would actually understand the CBA. The Phoenix Suns CAN'T take back on almost as much salary because of JJ's BYC status, and it certainly isn't required if they sign and trade him to a team like Atlanta who is far under the salary cap.

Sarver took a gamble last summer. I agreed with the move at the time, but it is clear now that it was a bad one. Then the Phoenix Suns spend the last few months saying that they will match any offer for JJ. Sarver might not like it, but he has to give JJ that money. Otherwise he's going to start hearing a lot of comparisons to Donald Sterling and worse yet Bill Bidwill.

Joe Mama
 

se7en

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Come on guys. This is a non issue. The Suns said they would match. Done deal. Which contract do you think they'd like to sign JJ at? 70 Million over 5 years or 90 million over 6 years? of course they want to the shorter cheaper contract. Unfortuntely that requires Atlanta's help. Atlanta has to believe they have a shot in order to offer JJ and contract. Otherwise they don't even bother. You guys are way to worried. You guys forget how good the Colangelos are at playing this game.
 

Joe Mama

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se7en said:
Come on guys. This is a non issue. The Suns said they would match. Done deal. Which contract do you think they'd like to sign JJ at? 70 Million over 5 years or 90 million over 6 years? of course they want to the shorter cheaper contract. Unfortuntely that requires Atlanta's help. Atlanta has to believe they have a shot in order to offer JJ and contract. Otherwise they don't even bother. You guys are way to worried. You guys forget how good the Colangelos are at playing this game.

I don't think anybody is worried about the Colangelos. They don't sign the checks anymore though.

Joe Mama
 

clif

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Man I have not really followed this much this offseason, but I would say match the offer...unless it will ruin the team financially for years to come. (it sounds like just for this year)

On the other hand.. Joe... what the hell is wrong with you?? You would actually risk leaving a team on the verge of a title to play for the freakin Hawks?!?! When it comes to being a millionaire several times over is there really that huge a difference between 50 mil last year and what 70 mil this year? Would you really be hurting???
 

sunsfn

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se7en said:
Come on guys. This is a non issue. The Suns said they would match. Done deal. Which contract do you think they'd like to sign JJ at? 70 Million over 5 years or 90 million over 6 years? of course they want to the shorter cheaper contract. Unfortuntely that requires Atlanta's help. Atlanta has to believe they have a shot in order to offer JJ and contract. Otherwise they don't even bother. You guys are way to worried. You guys forget how good the Colangelos are at playing this game.


--------------------------------
After Richardson (traded last month for Kurt Thomas) signed for $43.5 million last summer, Sarver declined to give Johnson the six-year, $50 million contract he desired, despite the staff's wishes. The combination of the two decisions still upsets Johnson, a teammate said.
---------------------------------------------------
se7en,

You may be right and I agree with you that Sarver has to match, but JC is not the final word anymore, Sarver is. Sarver did not listen last year, will he listen this year or will he get upset because something did not work out for him like he thought it would and he will say the H..... with you? Sarver has an attitude, you just had to watch the games last year and see him on the sidelines to see this. Some people thought it was enthusiasm, and I am sure some of it was, but he wants things to go his way and when they do not, watch out. (The chicken thing with the spurs when they did not play Duncan---Kicking 2 pro baseball players out of the arena because they were giving him a bad time for the way he was acting)

I think he has no option, he has to match, but I am telling you, Sarver is not the kind of person you want owning the NBA franchise in your town. He is a bottom line guy that must see the dollars and does not realize that people buy NBA teams for the fun and when they sell later they make their profit, not each year they own the team.

I hope I have him pegged wrong, but do not think so.
Hopefully he changes his attitude and runs the suns like someone should run an NBA team.

-
 

cly2tw

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Joe Mama said:
You would think that someone whose primary job is to follow an NBA franchise would actually understand the CBA.

Joe Mama

Frustrating indeed. :shrug:
 

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azdad1978 said:
Johnson's possible departure won't sit well with the franchise big man, but nobody else can give him the money the Suns can (almost $90 million for six years). It may not even please Steve Nash, who already saw a team that he felt was close to a title get broken up in Dallas.

at least this adds some pressure for Sarver to resign JJ... considering last season's MVP and the future of this franchise is lobbying for the same guy
 

George O'Brien

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There is no basketball reason to fail to match on JJ. In the current market, it is impossible to get a wing that is even close to his skills for less than the MLE and that is all the Suns will have for a long time.

I disagreed with his decision a year ago when it came out JJ could be signed for $50 million (originally it was reported to be $60 million), but I agreed JJ had not yet earned it. They gambled and lost. Now it is necessary to pay up.

Caro is on target when he notes that the price of top wings was set by Redd and Huges. JJ may not be worth $75 million, but he is better than those guys. That's the market.

If Sarver refuses to pay, then the campaign to force him to sell the team should start the next day.
 

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sunsfn said:
--------------------------------
After Richardson (traded last month for Kurt Thomas) signed for $43.5 million last summer, Sarver declined to give Johnson the six-year, $50 million contract he desired, despite the staff's wishes. The combination of the two decisions still upsets Johnson, a teammate said.
---------------------------------------------------
se7en,

You may be right and I agree with you that Sarver has to match, but JC is not the final word anymore, Sarver is. Sarver did not listen last year, will he listen this year or will he get upset because something did not work out for him like he thought it would and he will say the H..... with you? Sarver has an attitude, you just had to watch the games last year and see him on the sidelines to see this. Some people thought it was enthusiasm, and I am sure some of it was, but he wants things to go his way and when they do not, watch out. (The chicken thing with the spurs when they did not play Duncan---Kicking 2 pro baseball players out of the arena because they were giving him a bad time for the way he was acting)

I think he has no option, he has to match, but I am telling you, Sarver is not the kind of person you want owning the NBA franchise in your town. He is a bottom line guy that must see the dollars and does not realize that people buy NBA teams for the fun and when they sell later they make their profit, not each year they own the team.

I hope I have him pegged wrong, but do not think so.
Hopefully he changes his attitude and runs the suns like someone should run an NBA team.

-

Unfortunately, I think you nailed this on the head.

Jerry would have wrapped this up for 50 million last year, and many on this board would have complained that he overspent. But these stupid games of chicken, all because of a hardball stance over essentially less than a million a year, are things we as Suns fans never had to witness. They are things Clipper fans had to witness, every year. Yet I'm still amazed how many on this board applaud the Donald Sterling approach to Joe Johnson. The result of this approach will be either severely overpaying him or losing him entirely. Jerry would have forseen that, and taken care of business when they were a mere 5 million apart. Sarver saw the bottom line, and held out ... with very little to gain and very much to lose.

I just hope Jerry's detractors are starting to see how much they took him for granted. For all the Suns fans who hated him as an owner because he couldn't get us a center, remember that there was NEVER a shred of doubt, ever, that he would spend and do anything to field a winner, and do it with class. Robert Sarver's sideline immaturity and petty bottom line decisions (12 man rosters, trading 2nd round picks for cash, playing hardball over 5 million with a young talent despite his reputable staffs wishes, etc...) have many of us doubting him already after one short year ... a spectacular year no less.

I hope this is a learning curve, and not a sign of things to come. Unfortunately, I'm not holding my breath.
 
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coloradosun

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sunsfn said:
--------------------------------
After Richardson (traded last month for Kurt Thomas) signed for $43.5 million last summer, Sarver declined to give Johnson the six-year, $50 million contract he desired, despite the staff's wishes. The combination of the two decisions still upsets Johnson, a teammate said.
---------------------------------------------------


-

Johnson should be happy that he did not sign the 6yr 50M offer last year and who's to say he actually would have. Sarver actually did him a favor and he will be rewarded either way.

He is now in a position to get at least a 6 year 60M offer from the Suns and possibly a 6 year 70M offer. If he signs the offer sheet with Atlanta it will be 5 years and 70M.

My position is 70M is 70M whether it is over 5 years or 6 years, it is guaranteed. In Atlanta there will be more pressured applied to the money than in Phoenix, I am not sure he has factored that into the compensation.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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sunsfn said:
--------------------------------
After Richardson (traded last month for Kurt Thomas) signed for $43.5 million last summer, Sarver declined to give Johnson the six-year, $50 million contract he desired, despite the staff's wishes. The combination of the two decisions still upsets Johnson, a teammate said.
---------------------------------------------------
se7en,

You may be right and I agree with you that Sarver has to match, but JC is not the final word anymore, Sarver is. Sarver did not listen last year, will he listen this year or will he get upset because something did not work out for him like he thought it would and he will say the H..... with you? Sarver has an attitude, you just had to watch the games last year and see him on the sidelines to see this. Some people thought it was enthusiasm, and I am sure some of it was, but he wants things to go his way and when they do not, watch out. (The chicken thing with the spurs when they did not play Duncan---Kicking 2 pro baseball players out of the arena because they were giving him a bad time for the way he was acting)

I think he has no option, he has to match, but I am telling you, Sarver is not the kind of person you want owning the NBA franchise in your town. He is a bottom line guy that must see the dollars and does not realize that people buy NBA teams for the fun and when they sell later they make their profit, not each year they own the team.

I hope I have him pegged wrong, but do not think so.
Hopefully he changes his attitude and runs the suns like someone should run an NBA team.

-


completely agree. he came out with a bang last year w/ nash/q signings, but it seems everything since then has smacked of my biggest fears . . . sarver may well be a cheap boob.
 

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George O'Brien said:
There is no basketball reason to fail to match on JJ. In the current market, it is impossible to get a wing that is even close to his skills for less than the MLE and that is all the Suns will have for a long time.

I disagreed with his decision a year ago when it came out JJ could be signed for $50 million (originally it was reported to be $60 million), but I agreed JJ had not yet earned it. They gambled and lost. Now it is necessary to pay up.

Caro is on target when he notes that the price of top wings was set by Redd and Huges. JJ may not be worth $75 million, but he is better than those guys. That's the market.

If Sarver refuses to pay, then the campaign to force him to sell the team should start the next day.

i've never written a letter to a single sports team and if they let jj walk or do a sign and trade, i would send a letter the next day.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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coloradosun said:
Johnson should be happy that he did not sign the 6yr 50M offer last year and who's to say he actually would have. Sarver actually did him a favor and he will be rewarded either way.

He is now in a position to get at least a 6 year 60M offer from the Suns and possibly a 6 year 70M offer. If he signs the offer sheet with Atlanta it will be 5 years and 70M.

My position is 70M is 70M whether it is over 5 years or 6 years, it is guaranteed. In Atlanta there will be more pressured applied to the money than in Phoenix, I am not sure he has factored that into the compensation.

there is NO pressure playing in atlanta. it's a completely apathetic crowd. no one, not even their local media, pays any attention to the team. if the team succeeded jj would be lauded. if it failed it would be the same old hawks. much more pressure having to produce for a title contender.
 

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newfan101 said:
Unfortunately, I think you nailed this on the head.

Jerry would have wrapped this up for 50 million last year, and many on this board would have complained that he overspent. But these stupid games of chicken, all because of a hardball stance over essentially less than a million a year, are things we as Suns fans never had to witness. They are things Clipper fans had to witness, every year. Yet I'm still amazed how many on this board applaud the Donald Sterling approach to Joe Johnson. The result of this approach will be either severely overpaying him or losing him entirely. Jerry would have forseen that, and taken care of business when they were a mere 5 million apart. Sarver saw the bottom line, and held out ... with very little to gain and very much to lose.

I just hope Jerry's detractors are starting to see how much they took him for granted....


I always knew with JC in charge, no matter how strange the moves, he would always would do his very best to field a winner. If I knew JC was in charge of this situation now (and still the owner), I would not be sweating this JJ thing (as he would already be re-signed). JC always tried to give the Suns a winning team and a Championship. As a fan, you could always count on him. If he rolled the dice and made a bad move, he quickly reversed field and corrected it.

Unfortunately, JC never won the coin toss for Kareem nor had the luxury, like San Antonio, of having two number one picks in the NBA Draft: David Robinson and Tim Duncan to help win some Championships. In fact, the Suns have never had the luxury of being able choose #1 in the Draft.

Unfortunately, as a Suns fan I do not know what Mr. Sarver is going to do. If the Suns are going to be a clone of the Clippers West, I'm going to have to put some serious thought on how (after being a lifetime Suns fan) I can give up my interest in the team. It would tear my heart out, but I can no longer take this emotional roller coaster ride Mr. Sarver is putting me through.

I have always known down deep in my heart, JC was the heart and soul of the Phoenix Suns.

I hope Mr. Sarver listens to JC now and learns.
 
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coloradosun said:
My position is 70M is 70M whether it is over 5 years or 6 years, it is guaranteed.
Now that's just bad math.

And as for all those saying he just isn't worth it, I would like to find a copy of this "Athletes Price Guide" you have. Because the market for top quality wings has been set. In 2005 JJ is worth the max.
 

Chaz

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I agree.

If JC said he would match he would match.

The wildcard here is Sarver. Nobody seems to know for sure what he will do.


Unless he proves otherwise I am working under the assumption of what they have publicly said. The announced after the ATL announcement that they would match the offer if signed.

Until they show or say otherwise I believe them.
 

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Ouchie-Z-Clown said:
i've never written a letter to a single sports team and if they let jj walk or do a sign and trade, i would send a letter the next day.

I have. I wrote a letter to the Suns the day after they traded Kidd for Marbury. As bad a deal as that was, if it didn't happen we probably would've missed out on Amare, so I'm now glad it happened.
 

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SirChaz said:
I agree.

If JC said he would match he would match.

The wildcard here is Sarver. Nobody seems to know for sure what he will do.

I know what I will do if Sarver does not match. If he shows up in the front row of any of the games with that foam finger, I will shove it where the Sun does not shine. I hate his court side antics and I am beginning to hate his front office antics.
 

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lancelet's cousin said:
Now that's just bad math.

And as for all those saying he just isn't worth it, I would like to find a copy of this "Athletes Price Guide" you have. Because the market for top quality wings has been set. In 2005 JJ is worth the max.

Compared to 50M, 70M is 70M. I was using it in comparison to the contract JJ now "wishes" Sarver would have signed him to last summer.

Or for that matter the 43.5M contract that he signed Q, 70M is far greater than the amount he is supposedly upset that Richardson was offered.

How can JJ be upset about how both of these situations turned out.
 
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coloradosun said:
Compared to 50M, 70M is 70M. I was using it in comparison to the contract JJ now "wishes" Sarver would have signed him to last summer.

Or for that matter the 43.5M contract that he signed Q, 70M is far greater than the amount he is supposedly upset that Richardson was offered.

How can JJ be upset about how both of these situations turned out.
I'm not saying JJ is upset with how things turned out financially. But if he is upset with Sarver's refusal to sign his extension it was probably because it showed little faith in JJ's abilities. JJ doen't need to thank Sarver or even appreciate him for that, just because it turned out to be fortuitous for him.

But my contention was with your assessment of $70 million being $70 million regardless of the length of the contract. That's off millions of dollars, because the only way that works out is if he has a career ending injury during his contract.

But the point of what JJ should do is moot. His price has been set and it is all up to Sarver. He is the only one who decides where Joe goes (which may be unfortunate).
 

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lancelet's cousin said:
But my contention was with your assessment of $70 million being $70 million regardless of the length of the contract. That's off millions of dollars, because the only way that works out is if he has a career ending injury during his contract.

This was my point is either way he is guaranteed 70M, yes he could make more in the added year if he is healthy. But if he is not the 6th year could be 0 or a minimum contract in some form. Take Penny Hardaway or Allan Houston for example they are not going to get great contracts after this season. But the guaranteed money is always there. Hardaway and Houston have had to endure being on losing teams while under these huge contracts making the justification of their salaries questioned.

Allan Houston is so famed for his contract that now they have an new clause named just for him, that has to be humiliating in some way but in another he has his money, so for him 100M is 100M.
 

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