Dbacks vs. Reds series thread

[devilfan02]

He hasn't shown ANY improvement on defense or at the plate. I watched him all spring, he hasn't made any progress. Tracy and CJ cannot co-exist on this team and expect to have any success this year.

So then let's trade him after one MLB season and a freakin spring training. Since you watched him all through that meaningful spring training and he hasn't improved, I agree 100% and he should be moved.

Jesus Christ

 

[Brian]

Did I say anything about last year? It was obvious how badly he struggled last year IN HIS ROOKIE SEASON.... I'd say his bat was just fine last year IN HIS ROOKIE SEASON. He's in his freakin 2nd year and he will improve both at the plate and in the field

I find it odd that you question my "acumen on the subject" when you want to throw a top prospect away after one year. If you haven't noticed, Stenbrenner isn't our owner and we can't go buy anyone we want. Why don't you give CoJack at least a couple years to see if he can live up to your lofty expectations? Did you expect him to break into the league and win a GG and hit 35+ HR's?

You are an angry man.

 

[devilfan02]

Here's some from that article so you don't have to open a defferent frame.

Six seasons from their World Series championship, four seasons from financing the highest payroll in the National League, two seasons from 111 losses, the Diamondbacks have the early look of a contender in the West, while systematically cutting that payroll in half.

On most nights, they will start five of eight position players drafted or signed into the organization in the past 5½ years. On Wednesday night, starting pitcher Micah Owings, a big, well-regarded right-hander, made it six of nine.

It makes sense, given 15 players on the 25-man roster have not known another organization. Right-fielder Carlos Quentin, recovering from a shoulder injury, shortstop Stephen Drew, first baseman Conor Jackson and – coming soon – outfielder Justin Upton were first-rounders from 2003-05.

Last summer, still up to their teal-and-purple necks in debt while paying on a World Series and the residual urge to maintain something close to it, the Diamondbacks went all in on their farm system. Luis Gonzalez is gone. So are Craig Counsell, Johnny Estrada and Shawn Green. So are the teal and purple.

The $270 million they owed in deferred contracts after the 2001 championship (Randy Johnson, for one, will receive $3.5 million this year, $6.6 million next year and $8.5 million in each of the four years after that, on top of the two-year, $26-million contract he signed in the offseason), has been paid down to about $100 million. They have budgeted another $35 million toward the debt this year, helped in part by baseball's revenue sharing system, through which the Diamondbacks received just under $10 million last season.

Meantime, from its high of $103 million in 2002, the payroll has been slashed every season to $52 million this season, 13th in the NL and 26th in baseball. The strategy made the Diamondbacks 111-game losers in 2004. It's made them seven-game winners through a week and a half in 2007.

Alive or dead?

"As the memories of '04 fade, so too does the debt load," said general partner Jeff Moorad, the former player agent who was bought in near the end of that season. "Through a lot of hard work and fiscal engineering, the organization has been able to remove itself in part from some of the economic hardship of the past.

"I'm not sure we see the light at the end of the financial tunnel, but it's coming into focus."

As they throw wads of cash at their obligations, they also appear committed to throwing wads of at-bats at their youngest players, namely Drew, Jackson, Quentin, center fielder Chris Young, Scott Hairston and catchers Chris Snyder and Miguel Montero.

"We've evolved into this kind of team," general manager Josh Byrnes said. "Part of it's by choice, part of it's by necessity. … Now it's time for them to be fixtures on this team."

As a lieutenant with the Cleveland Indians in the mid-'90s, Byrnes witnessed the simultaneous integration of Manny Ramirez, Jim Thome and, a bit behind them, Jeromy Burnitz. Now, beholden to the organization's financial correction, but benefiting from wise decisions made by former GM Joe Garagiola Jr. and former scouting director Mike Rizzo, he'll live it again.

"As an industry, we're pretty hard on young players," Byrnes said. "It's OK to have some confidence in them, some faith in them."

The rest will play out in the summer ahead, against more experienced teams in Los Angeles, San Diego and San Francisco. Though Byrnes observed, "That 2004 season carried a lot of scar tissue for the organization," there is growth in areas, there are hopes for an attendance surge, and, heck, hardly any of today's players were around for those days anyway.

Hairston was one who was, and one of the players Byrnes said the organization had to "restart … developmentally." It was Hairston's 11th-inning double that beat the Reds on Tuesday night, his smile that greeted them all out at second base.

Three years ago, Hairston admitted, "It was basically making the best of it we possibly could.

"The mindset right now is a lot different than it was back then."

So, alive or dead? They'll see what the climate sustains.

"With every good team you can identify a turning point," Moorad said. "We happen to believe this is ours."

 

[Ryanwb]

So then let's trade him after one MLB season and a freakin spring training. Since you watched him all through that meaningful spring training and he hasn't improved, I agree 100% and he should be moved.

Jesus Christ

Wow, you changed my mind with that well thought out and poignant opinion

 

[devilfan02]

You are an angry man.

I just don't understand why some people want to throw him away? Why not give him 2-3 years in the bigs to see if he can develop? Albert Pujols was an atrocious defensive 1B in his first couple years and now he's a GGer. Ryan Howard was awful as well but made strides defensively last year in his second full season. Why can't CoJack do the same?

Sure, CoJacks bat will never turn into Pujols or Howards but he has all the ingredients to be a very good offensive player for a long time. Did anyone ever consider that once he gets some protection around him in the lineup that his numbers will be leaps and bounds better? He has never experienced having a dangerous hitter hit before or after him in the lineup. We all know he has the eye and discipline which is the hardest part for youngsters to grasp.

Bottom line is we're 2 1/2 series into the new season and some are already calling for one of the brightest players on our team to be traded. I've had enough of Tracy but I'm biting my tongue hoping that he will turn it around considering that there are 152 damn games left.

It's a marathon, not a sprint.

 

[devilfan02]

Wow, you changed my mind with that well thought out and poignant opinion

Exactly how I felt about your last post. Coin the sarcasm

 

[OldDirtMcGirt]

I just don't understand why some people want to throw him away? Why not give him 2-3 years in the bigs to see if he can develop? Albert Pujols was an atrocious defensive 1B in his first couple years and now he's a GGer. Ryan Howard was awful as well but made strides defensively last year in his second full season. Why can't CoJack do the same?

Sure, CoJacks bat will never turn into Pujols or Howards but he has all the ingredients to be a very good offensive player for a long time. Did anyone ever consider that once he gets some protection around him in the lineup that his numbers will be leaps and bounds better? He has never experienced having a dangerous hitter hit before or after him in the lineup. We all know he has the eye and discipline which is the hardest part for youngsters to grasp.

Bottom line is we're 2 1/2 series into the new season and some are already calling for one of the brightest players on our team to be traded. I've had enough of Tracy but I'm biting my tongue hoping that he will turn it around considering that there are 152 damn games left.

It's a marathon, not a sprint.

I agree. It's not that I'd be totally opposed to trading him if the right offer came around, but he needs at least this year and next year before we can pass judgment on him.

Tracy for me is done. Sure I wish that he can get all of it back, but there's no way we can bank on it. We really need a power hitter in our lineup.

 

[PHXSportsFan4]

Sucks we couldn't pull off another win last night. Owings had a great start but we just came up short. I guess that's baseball. I don't think that they can send Owings down at this point. He's had 2 amazing starts and I just don't see how you can send him down. Same for Hairston. He's played pretty well so far and someone is going to have to go when Quentin comes back. I guess maybe it's a good thing when you have so many good young players around that you just have a tough time deciding which 25 to keep.

 

[coyoteshockeyfan]

Considering the team is currently 7-3 (tied with the franchise's best 10 game start), its pretty early to be voting guys off the island. I don't put much faith in spring training performance but I am surprised to see people using what Jackson did this spring as an indicator that he should be traded, considering he hit over .300 and had a grand total of one error.

 

[HooverDam]

^Well the 7-3 record is pretty meaningless and deceiving, we haven't played any teams that are playoff caliber teams yet. And we padded the record by beating up on the Nats for 4 games.

The Dbacks offense IS anemic, I don't see how anyone can deny that. I'd be patient and wait for Young and Quentin to come back, and if things don't improve with them in the line up, the team should try to find a trading partner for Tracy and Byrnes.

No offense, but I'm glad you're not.

I guess you enjoy watching the Dbacks scrap by on 3 runs a game and like watching Tracy be a complete spaz at third, and Byrnes make every day plays look like miracles because he took a bad beat on the ball.

 

[coyoteshockeyfan]

The Dbacks offense IS anemic, I don't see how anyone can deny that. I'd be patient and wait for Young and Quentin to come back, and if things don't improve with them in the line up, the team should try to find a trading partner for Tracy and Byrnes.

I guess you enjoy watching the Dbacks scrap by on 3 runs a game and like watching Tracy be a complete spaz at third, and Byrnes make every day plays look like miracles because he took a bad beat on the ball.

The Diamondbacks are scoring an average of 4.6 runs a game (current NL average is 3.8 a game) and while its obviously early and Arizona hasn't faced top competition yet (although let's face it, it looks like there are very few stand out teams in the NL this year), I don't think the team offense can be categorized as anemic based on what we have seen so far.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

The Reds will be a NL contender this year, they only finished a total of three games out from the Cardinals last year.

 

[Brian]

I guess you enjoy watching the Dbacks scrap by on 3 runs a game and like watching Tracy be a complete spaz at third, and Byrnes make every day plays look like miracles because he took a bad beat on the ball.

Yep, that's what I said. Exactly my point....you caught me.

Oh wait, I thought I quoted you because once again you were bringing up the subject of trading HUDSON. I said nothing about the offense, Tracy or Byrnes. I said I'm glad you are not in management because you want to trade Hudson.

Go with the flow. Read what you wrote and read what I quoted.

 

[HooverDam]

Yep, that's what I said. Exactly my point....you caught me.

Oh wait, I thought I quoted you because once again you were bringing up the subject of trading HUDSON. I said nothing about the offense, Tracy or Byrnes. I said I'm glad you are not in management because you want to trade Hudson.

Go with the flow. Read what you wrote and read what I quoted.

I said I would listen to trade for Hudson, and certainly consider them. You wouldn't? If a GM called you up and said, "so we are interested in Orlando Hudson" you'd hang the phone up right there? I think Callaspo can be an excellent player, and if meant getting either 1. a true power hitter, or 2. a stud starting pitcher, I'd let Hudson go.

But I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. Are you agreeing that Byrnes and Tracy should be traded if the right deal could be found?

 

[Brian]

I said I would listen to trade for Hudson, and certainly consider them. You wouldn't? If a GM called you up and said, "so we are interested in Orlando Hudson" you'd hang the phone up right there? I think Callaspo can be an excellent player, and if meant getting either 1. a true power hitter, or 2. a stud starting pitcher, I'd let Hudson go.

But I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. Are you agreeing that Byrnes and Tracy should be traded if the right deal could be found?

Nope. Hudson is untouchable right now to me. He's the team MVP so far this year. Byrnes and Tracy? Absolutely tradeable. As a matter of fact, the way they are playing right now, Callaspo would be starting at 3rd. Tracy has peaked, and although he's a good guy, Callaspo has the brighter upside. If Tracy and Byrnes could be packaged for a true power hitter I'd pull the trigger on that in a heartbeat.

 

[devilfan02]

The Reds will be a NL contender this year, they only finished a total of three games out from the Cardinals last year.

Exactly. The Reds play in the worst division in baseball and are a threat to win the NL Central. They have two very good starters in Arroyo and Harang and also have a dangerous offense with Dunn, Griffey, and now maybe Hamilton. They are no pushovers

 

[HooverDam]

Griffey

Whats the over/under on Griffey playing in 110 games though? I've got to guess under.

 

[devilfan02]

Whats the over/under on Griffey playing in 110 games though? I've got to guess under.

They moved him to RF for that reason. Who knows, you have to go with recent history and I'd say your over/under number is pretty accurate. If he can play 130+ games the Reds will benefit greatly. I still believe that pitchers respect his power which is why Dunn gets so many pitches to hack at

 

[Ryanwb]

If he can play 130+ games the Reds will benefit greatly. I still believe that pitchers respect his power which is why Dunn gets so many pitches to hack at

Wow, that's some amazing power Griffey has over pitchers, considering he's been batting 5th in the lineup most of the season and Dunn 3rd. Encarnacion is the Cleanup hitter.....

 

[devilfan02]

Wow, that's some amazing power Griffey has over pitchers, considering he's been batting 5th in the lineup most of the season and Dunn 3rd. Encarnacion is the Cleanup hitter.....

He's batted cleanup 4 out of their 10 games so far. You seem to use a very small sample size for all your arguments. I'm sure throughout the season he'll get plenty more cleanup opps.

Why would they put Dunn behind Griffey? He needs to see all the pitches he can get and with Griffey behind him he'll get those pitches.

Plus, if you couldn't tell I said that I believe pitchers still repect his power. Did I say he had power?

 

[Ryanwb]

Why would they put Dunn behind Griffey? He needs to see all the pitches he can get and with Griffey behind him he'll get those pitches.

What are you talking about? Dunn hasn't been behind Griffey.... I guess you are one of those, "I'm never wrong" guys