Suns @ Timberwolves Tuesday Playoff game thread 4-23-2024 - Game 2

TJ

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We may not have a choice with the KD trade being a bust. Booker could bring us a bunch of needed assets to rebuild. I don’t think Book is going to stay for a rebuild anyway. The organization set the expectations to have a big name next to him and we don’t have the pieces or cap space to make that happen again anytime soon.
I think the hedge here has always been that if the KD experiment didn’t work out (still TBD at the moment) and the team plummeted, you could always trade Booker for four firsts, pick swaps and talent. Booker’s chances of finishing his career in Phoenix has always been < 1%
 

nashman

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I think the hedge here has always been that if the KD experiment didn’t work out (still TBD at the moment) and the team plummeted, you could always trade Booker for four firsts, pick swaps and talent. Booker’s chances of finishing his career in Phoenix has always been < 1%
He seems to really love Az and being a Sun not sure I agree with this take. Trading Book could be a franchise crushing move, which is why I don’t think it will happen. He imo is the only untouchable on the whole team, not just a great player but genuinely a good person that people love! Not some clown always in trouble or having off court issues etc.
 

Cheesebeef

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Not really since we have even more pick swaps than traded picks. Pick swaps become sunk cost only after stupidily beginning the rebuild as well.
Oh yeah. Those are gonna hurt too. But those are SUNS pick swaps. Again, sunk costs. You gotta try to find a way to have the foresight to grab picks from others that could be used in the draft.

Bottom line, the draft is gonna be the only way to rebuild so might as well get as much of them as possible and start rebuilding. Being a perennial 6-10 seed, with no picks on top of that, gets us nowhere.
 

Phrazbit

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Oh yeah. Those are gonna hurt too. But those are SUNS pick swaps. Again, sunk costs. You gotta try to find a way to have the foresight to grab picks from others that could be used in the draft.

Bottom line, the draft is gonna be the only way to rebuild so might as well get as much of them as possible and start rebuilding. Being a perennial 6-10 seed, with no picks on top of that, gets us nowhere.

The obvious solution is to trade booker to the Nets, if we blow it up.

Get back our own pics and make some of those swap options less putrid.

They are going to ride this for another season, though, probably with another head coach. But a midseason tear down would not surprise me.
 

Cheesebeef

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The obvious solution is to trade booker to the Nets, if we blow it up.

Get back our own pics and make some of those swap options less putrid.

They are going to ride this for another season, though, probably with another head coach. But a midseason tear down would not surprise me.
That’s delaying the inevitable.

And trading Booker to the Nets would be great. Then all the Twins/Booker fans could swoon over the .500 Nets while we get our picks back.

But I don’t think the Nets are dumb enough to make that trade. They fleeced us with the KD trade and they already have Booker light with Cam Thomas. They don’t need any more empty calorie “stars”, especially ones that cost 50 million per, at the expense of what will be gold lotto picks, nonetheless.
 
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clyde2tw

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Way too many TOs by Booker particular. And Booker's bad D was again a main culprit. They spent way too much to stop Edwards, but allowed McD and Walker easy one-dribble drive-bys for layups. If the starters are too tired for playing tough defense the whole game, you should use the bench more. And the offense is easily disrupted just like in previous playoffs with a CP3 led team.
 

Phrazbit

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That delaying the inevitable.

And trading Booker to the Nets would be great. Then all the Twins/Booker fans could swoon over the .500 Nets while we get our picks back.

But I don’t think the Nets are dumb enough to make that trade. They fleeced us with the KD trade and they already have Booker light with Cam Thomas. They don’t need any more empty calorie “stars”, especially ones that cost 50 million per, at the expense of what will be gold lotto picks, nonetheless.

The only reason I think it is a possibility is because of Ben Simmons and his contract. They can get Booker for that pile of trash and picks.

Also, I don't even think the Nets like Cam Thomas, he is in and our of the dog house and when he did see the court he court the Nets got destroyed, nightmare splits on that guy. He is more Eddie House or maybe Brandon Knight than Devin Booker.

And if they are not game... then we simply gotta ride this mess into the oblivion and hope a miracle gets them on track.

Having no picks under your direct control for the next 7 years basically means we cannot reset. Even the years where we do have our pick, the swap is leveraged 3 ways. We will be the worst team in the league and we will stay the worst team in the league and other teams will draft with our pick in the top 4 year after year after year.

Hense why I said the KD trade had very strong odds to be one of the worst trades in NBA history.
 

Cheesebeef

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The only reason I think it is a possibility is because of Ben Simmons and his contract.

And if they are not game... then we simply gotta ride this mess into the oblivion and hope a miracle gets them on track.

Having no picks under your direct control for the next 7 years basically means we cannot reset. Even the years where we do have our pick, the swap is leveraged 3 ways. We will be the worst team in the league and we will stay the worst team in the league and other teams will draft with our pick in the top 4 year after year after year.

Hense why I said the KD trade had very strong odds to be one of the worst trades in NBA history.
The KD trade is def a catastrophe. You were dead on about this team being that old ass Celtics redux disaster, but partly got a reason you didn’t see coming,.. Devin Booker partly becoming the Deron Williams of that Nets team. He was supposed to be the superstar that the old dudes would compliment.

Now he totally went off the rails to an alarming effect, but Book just hasn’t lived up in any way shape or form what we thought he could be. These playoffs/season have been embarrassing.
 
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Phrazbit

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The KD is def a catastrophe. You were dead on about this team being that old ass Celtics redux disaster, but partly got a reason you didn’t see coming,.. Devin Booker partly becoming the Deron Williams of that Nets team. He was supposed to be the superstar that the old dudes would compliment.

Now he totally went off the rails to an alarming effect, but Book just hasn’t lived up in any way shape or form what we thought he could be. These playoffs/season have been embarrassing.

On a better constructed team I think Booker is fine, not an ultramega superstar but a damn good SG, one of the best in the league. Right now he's our point guard, our only reliable ball handler and also stuck on main defensive assignments because, as much as he has struggled on D, Beal is no better and Allen is far worse. He isn't a top 5 guy, in this role he isn't a top 10 guy.

I actually thought Durant would be better, far better than he has been. I was unaware of how careless he is with the ball and his habit of totally checking out of games for long stretches is revolting. He basically slept through the 2nd half tonight until we were down 17 with 3 minutes left.

I thought we'd be a contender for a year, maybe 2 and then only if Durant was healthy... then the cost of the trade would plummet us into the abyss. Instead we are in no way shape or form a contender.

They basically have no choice to stick it out, at least for half of another season.

Pray a new coach can make a difference... our coaching has been awful. We don't run offensive sets... flat out, it's the same ISO and dribble penetration every single play. No cutting, no off ball fancy screens, just a bunch of ball watching and suck. I don't know if Vogel thinks not running sets makes us unpredictable but instead we have the most predictable offense in the league. The only reason our offense functions at all is because we have some guys that are good enough to make shots with the horrible looks we create.
 

Cheesebeef

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On a better constructed team I think Booker is fine, not an ultramega superstar but a damn good SG, one of the best in the league. Right now he's our point guard, our only reliable ball handler and also stuck on main defensive assignments because, as much as he has struggled on D, Beal is no better and Allen is far worse. He isn't a top 5 guy, in this role he isn't a top 10 guy.

I actually thought Durant would be better, far better than he has been. I was unaware of how careless he is with the ball and his habit of totally checking out of games for long stretches is revolting. He basically slept through the 2nd half tonight until we were down 17 with 3 minutes left.

I thought we'd be a contender for a year, maybe 2 and then only if Durant was healthy... then the cost of the trade would plummet us into the abyss. Instead we are in no way shape or form a contender.

They basically have no choice to stick it out, at least for half of another season.

Pray a new coach can make a difference... our coaching has been awful. We don't run offensive sets... flat out, it's the same ISO and dribble penetration every single play. No cutting, no off ball fancy screens, just a bunch of ball watching and suck. I don't know if Vogel thinks not running sets makes us unpredictable but instead we have the most predictable offense in the league. The only reason our offense functions at all is because we have some guys that are good enough to make shots with the horrible looks we create.
We’re f’ed dude. You know. I know it. And the sooner the Suns know it the sooner they can try to dig out of this mess.
 

Hoop Head

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Booker is fine as a #2 or a 1B. The problem is we paid for a kings ransom for what was supposed to be a legit #1 to put in front of him in KD and Durant hasn't been that. At KD's age he won't become that either. That's what makes that trade so painful. Booker seems fine take on a complimentary role but Durant isn't a leader so it doesn't work. Giving up everything we did for a #2 is ridiculous. Such a dumb trade that moved us even further from contention. The deal was Shaq 2.0. Some say it isn't but I think they forget Shaq was an All-Star in year 2 here. We also didn't owe damn near a decades worth of picks so we could pull the plug by moving him for expiring deals. I'm sure we can get that for Durant but that gets us nowhere.
 

CardNots

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Oh yeah. Those are gonna hurt too. But those are SUNS pick swaps. Again, sunk costs. You gotta try to find a way to have the foresight to grab picks from others that could be used in the draft.

Bottom line, the draft is gonna be the only way to rebuild so might as well get as much of them as possible and start rebuilding. Being a perennial 6-10 seed, with no picks on top of that, gets us nowhere.
Time to follow the OKC model and unload Booker and Durant then Beal will look to get out of town in the next few years.
 

Phrazbit

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We’re f’ed dude. You know. I know it. And the sooner the Suns know it the sooner they can try to dig out of this mess.

Maaaaaaaaaaaybe Vogel is just absolute trash and maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaybe we can find a coach these guys will listen to.

But I doubt it.

I agree... we're f'ed... but burning it down is pointless without control of your own draft. If we were only looking at a couple years of not having our own pick, that would be one thing, but it's the better part of a decade. Being the worst team in the league and drafting in the mid to late 20s every year will do nothing to improve the roster and only pile on the mysery and humilation.

Even if we did get desperate to blow it up, even pulling it off would be difficult and likely yeild little value.

No one is taking Beal.

Durant's value is a fraction of what it was, given the apron rules and that he'd only consider going to a contender, there are probably only a couple specific teams that would consider taking him. It's honestly hard to think of anyone that is something of a contender, that could take his salary on AND send picks back, besides OKC.

Booker has more value and his age opens up a larger group of teams who might see themselves contending at some point soon, but if you trade him you're guaranteeing yourself having the worst roster in the league for a loooooong time. You better get some serious compensation but with the apron rules and his contract size, it's hard see where that comes from.

Outside of some very specific bail out scenarios, we simply have no choice but to consume this meal of dog crap we have made for ourselves.
 

taz02

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I don't think anyone wants to trade Booker. He is a great player that will be difficult to replace and sorely missed. He is just not the guy who is going to lead us to a championship.

IMO the KD trade confirmed the front office felt the same and hoped KD would be that guy. Now they appear to be completely boxed in.

I just don't see how they bring in the needed #1 superstar to lead Booker and crew to a championship.
 

taz02

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In what year will the suns finally control their own 1st round pick?
 

82CardsGrad

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This team is entirely leaderless, heartless and just putrid. In fact, using the term “team” is really not appropriate, as they are the antitheses of team! Dysfunctional… They clearly don’t have a clue how to play as a cohesive unit.
This season is actually the most disappointing to me regarding Book. We can all speculate as to why he dropped off so dramatically this year, but something is clearly wrong. Maybe he hates Vogel? Maybe he doesn’t enjoy playing with KD? I dunno, but the dude gives off the IDGAF vibes as much as any diva I’ve seen.
And he continues his psuedo Pat Bev tough guy crap, which is now just laughable… letting guys second-tier scrubs (Alavarez on the Pelicans for example), get under his skin.

The core reason why this team has been so massively disappointing this year, and now in the post season, is because Book has failed to perform and produce at the level everyone expected he would. As a result, the entire team is thrown off-kilter.

And has been said a few times here, I can’t see how Ishbia digs out of this disaster anytime soon. We are stuck with this collection of misfits and underperformers for years to come…
 

CardNots

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This team is entirely leaderless, heartless and just putrid. In fact, using the term “team” is really not appropriate, as they are the antitheses of team! Dysfunctional… They clearly don’t have a clue how to play as a cohesive unit.
This season is actually the most disappointing to me regarding Book. We can all speculate as to why he dropped off so dramatically this year, but something is clearly wrong. Maybe he hates Vogel? Maybe he doesn’t enjoy playing with KD? I dunno, but the dude gives off the IDGAF vibes as much as any diva I’ve seen.
And he continues his psuedo Pat Bev tough guy crap, which is now just laughable… letting guys second-tier scrubs (Alavarez on the Pelicans for example), get under his skin.

The core reason why this team has been so massively disappointing this year, and now in the post season, is because Book has failed to perform and produce at the level everyone expected he would. As a result, the entire team is thrown off-kilter.

And has been said a few times here, I can’t see how Ishbia digs out of this disaster anytime soon. We are stuck with this collection of misfits and underperformers for years to come…
I’m not stuck as I’m in the OKC market. I’ll keep an eye on the Suns teams of the future but my love for them has diminished greatly:)
 

RON_IN_OC

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Time to follow the OKC model and unload Booker and Durant then Beal will look to get out of town in the next few years.
Ishbia will never bite the bullet and admit defeat, allowing for a full rebuild...at least not anytime soon. Suns are in 1st round exit purgatory for the next 5-10 years.
 

BirdGangThing

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we're not getting rid of the big 3 - allen and nurk are staying as well - it is what it is
 

Covert Rain

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The KD trade is def a catastrophe. You were dead on about this team being that old ass Celtics redux disaster, but partly got a reason you didn’t see coming,.. Devin Booker partly becoming the Deron Williams of that Nets team. He was supposed to be the superstar that the old dudes would compliment.

Now he totally went off the rails to an alarming effect, but Book just hasn’t lived up in any way shape or form what we thought he could be. These playoffs/season have been embarrassing.
I get it that the team doesn't seem to be a destination for superstars in the their PRIME. However, after Shaq, Chris Paul and now Durant? I really hope this organization is done spending a ton of cap space/capital on guys at the end of their careers. It just has not worked out. Maybe Ishbia can change that but who knows.

If we get bounced AGAIN....I think Suns fans need to face the reality that the issue is not finding the right complimentary player to play alongside our #1. BOOKER IS THAT COMPLIMENTARY PLAYER and we still need a number 1. Just my opinion but I think the Suns may already know that. I suspect that's why they pulled the trigger on the Durant trade. They are just never going to say it out loud. Maybe Book surprises us all and goes on a historic run but I know better than to get my hopes up with this team.
 

AzStevenCal

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Ishbia will never bite the bullet and admit defeat, allowing for a full rebuild...at least not anytime soon. Suns are in 1st round exit purgatory for the next 5-10 years.
The league sabotaged the Suns and I believe it was on purpose. Not because they hate the Suns but because they hate the way we tried to build this team in defiance of their cap restrictions. I've never in my life seen this league make such a huge change during the course of a season.

Instructing the referees (midseason) to allow more defensive contact functionally put an end to our title hopes this year and for as long as we have Durant/Booker. But Ish should be smart enough to realize that this new NBA is now going to be dominated by much more physical players than we've seen during the Warriors run. We've put together a great finesse team (when healthy) but before we could get everyone healthy, the league changed the system. We need a Head Coach that teaches smart physical play and we need players with that same mindset.
 

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