Suns @ Timberwolves Tuesday Playoff game thread 4-23-2024 - Game 2

RON_IN_OC

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The league sabotaged the Suns and I believe it was on purpose. Not because they hate the Suns but because they hate the way we tried to build this team in defiance of their cap restrictions. I've never in my life seen this league make such a huge change during the course of a season.

Instructing the referees (midseason) to allow more defensive contact functionally put an end to our title hopes this year and for as long as we have Durant/Booker. But Ish should be smart enough to realize that this new NBA is now going to be dominated by much more physical players than we've seen during the Warriors run. We've put together a great finesse team (when healthy) but before we could get everyone healthy, the league changed the system. We need a Head Coach that teaches smart physical play and we need players with that same mindset.
The league did not sabotage the Suns.

That's just another fan sided justification of yet another suckage performance by the team when it counts.
 

AzStevenCal

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The league did not sabotage the Suns.

That's just another fan sided justification of yet another suckage performance by the team when it counts.
The league absolutely sabotaged the Suns, the only question is whether it was intentional. Seriously, when have you ever seen the NBA make major changes to the way they referee the game in the middle of a season? The NBA went to great lengths to balance out the league, we ignored what they were trying to do and kept piling on salary debt.

And I'm not blaming the league. We built a finesse team, that's all on us. And we tried to buy a championship, again that's all on us. The new CBA makes it unlikely a franchise can survive the penalties for long which was their goal. It looked like we found a workaround to the new deal until the midseason meeting where they decided it would be good for the league if defenders were allowed to by physical.
 

82CardsGrad

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The league absolutely sabotaged the Suns, the only question is whether it was intentional. Seriously, when have you ever seen the NBA make major changes to the way they referee the game in the middle of a season? The NBA went to great lengths to balance out the league, we ignored what they were trying to do and kept piling on salary debt.

And I'm not blaming the league. We built a finesse team, that's all on us. And we tried to buy a championship, again that's all on us. The new CBA makes it unlikely a franchise can survive the penalties for long which was their goal. It looked like we found a workaround to the new deal until the midseason meeting where they decided it would be good for the league if defenders were allowed to by physical.
Not sure you’re using the correct phraseology… The league didn’t “sabotage” the Suns as much as the Suns built a dysfunctional, misguided group of misfits.
The change (has anyone seen anything from the league to validate their “change”?), was needed. And most contenders would be contenders without any change as to how refs call a game. And this Suns team would’ve been bounced without said “change” as well.
The root of our problems is not at all any sort of “change.” Rather, our problems begin and end with the fact we have ZERO leadership, and ZERO physical and mental toughness. Period.
 

AzStevenCal

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Not sure you’re using the correct phraseology… The league didn’t “sabotage” the Suns as much as the Suns built a dysfunctional, misguided group of misfits.
The change (has anyone seen anything from the league to validate their “change”?), was needed. And most contenders would be contenders without any change as to how refs call a game. And this Suns team would’ve been bounced without said “change” as well.
The root of our problems is not at all any sort of “change.” Rather, our problems begin and end with the fact we have ZERO leadership, and ZERO physical and mental toughness. Period.
I think both things happened. And again, the league didn't sabotage us because they hate us or anything like that. They did what they felt was best to put an end to dynasty building like the Warriors have been doing for years (I'm talking about how they just kept on paying the huge penalties to get/keep a championship contender in play thereby defeating the purpose of the penalties).

The penalties were designed to stop this kind of process but we ignored it and went after another unhappy superstar. Maybe it's just coincidence that they decided to allow physical play once we'd committed to a finesse team but doing it in the middle of the season suggests to me they were trying to protect their new CBA.
 

BirdGangThing

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we did what we needed to do in the first half - they adjusted and we didn't - devin didn't do nothing to stop it - kd and beal neither

once i saw book go to the top of the key - he passed it to beal and tried to get out of the way for some iso but when book went to the left - kd was already there standing still and hiding in plain site behind the 3 point line

again - neither book or kd tried to get open for the kick out once beal penetraded - resulting in beal taking a bad iso contested missed jump shot leading to a fast break the other way

i believe that was the end of the 3rd quarter - it was when i knew the game was over
 

AzStevenCal

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I was always highly skeptical anyway of some fans' suspicions that the league hated the Suns (esp. during the Nash era), because the league had no reason to "hate" the Phoenix Suns. The Suns would make money as a champion. Their style was entertaining. I see those fans as childish: responding to a perceived snub with "wahhh, you don't like me!"

It was the Spurs that I believed the league hated. I believed that it saw the Spurs' style as boring and unprofitable. The Spurs are a symbol of basketball excellence, but the NBA cares about basketball only insofar as it cares about making money.
I've never thought they hated the Suns although obviously there were some conflicts with the owner. But I disagree about the Spurs. David Stern was close friends with the Spurs owner so even though they were not a huge draw they were fairly important to David and the league. And although I have issues with the league, I've never thought they were out to get any player or team. That may not be true for each individual referee but I don't believe the league has ever conspired to hurt or help a team.
 

Covert Rain

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I've never thought they hated the Suns although obviously there were some conflicts with the owner. But I disagree about the Spurs. David Stern was close friends with the Spurs owner so even though they were not a huge draw they were fairly important to David and the league. And although I have issues with the league, I've never thought they were out to get any player or team. That may not be true for each individual referee but I don't believe the league has ever conspired to hurt or help a team.
This. I don't think it's the organization but some owners the league doesn't like for sure.
 

82CardsGrad

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IBOOKER IS THAT COMPLIMENTARY PLAYER and we still need a number 1. Just my opinion but I think the Suns may already know that. I suspect that's why they pulled the trigger on the Durant trade. They are just never going to say it out loud. Maybe Book surprises us all and goes on a historic run but I know better than to get my hopes up with this team.
Great point about Booker. I mean, is Book any better than Murray? Fox? Lillard? SGA? McCollum? Or even Edwards?
None of these guys have won or will ever win without a legit #1 dominant mega-star by their side.
Murray has the Joker… and I guess we’ll see what the rest end up doing this year and in the years to come.

But there really can’t be any debate that the current configuration of this team was based on the premise that Book is a #1 mega-star, and it’s now been confirmed he is a good option for a #2.
Durant’s ineptitude… same for Beal, amplifies this reality..
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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On a better constructed team I think Booker is fine, not an ultramega superstar but a damn good SG, one of the best in the league. Right now he's our point guard, our only reliable ball handler and also stuck on main defensive assignments because, as much as he has struggled on D, Beal is no better and Allen is far worse. He isn't a top 5 guy, in this role he isn't a top 10 guy.

I actually thought Durant would be better, far better than he has been. I was unaware of how careless he is with the ball and his habit of totally checking out of games for long stretches is revolting. He basically slept through the 2nd half tonight until we were down 17 with 3 minutes left.

I thought we'd be a contender for a year, maybe 2 and then only if Durant was healthy... then the cost of the trade would plummet us into the abyss. Instead we are in no way shape or form a contender.

They basically have no choice to stick it out, at least for half of another season.

Pray a new coach can make a difference... our coaching has been awful. We don't run offensive sets... flat out, it's the same ISO and dribble penetration every single play. No cutting, no off ball fancy screens, just a bunch of ball watching and suck. I don't know if Vogel thinks not running sets makes us unpredictable but instead we have the most predictable offense in the league. The only reason our offense functions at all is because we have some guys that are good enough to make shots with the horrible looks we create.
Booker is not our only reliable ballhandler. He’s not even our best ballhandler. That’s beal.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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I get it that the team doesn't seem to be a destination for superstars in the their PRIME. However, after Shaq, Chris Paul and now Durant? I really hope this organization is done spending a ton of cap space/capital on guys at the end of their careers. It just has not worked out. Maybe Ishbia can change that but who knows.

If we get bounced AGAIN....I think Suns fans need to face the reality that the issue is not finding the right complimentary player to play alongside our #1. BOOKER IS THAT COMPLIMENTARY PLAYER and we still need a number 1. Just my opinion but I think the Suns may already know that. I suspect that's why they pulled the trigger on the Durant trade. They are just never going to say it out loud. Maybe Book surprises us all and goes on a historic run but I know better than to get my hopes up with this team.
I’d say Paul worked out. Took us back to playoffs. Got to Finals. Won 64 games. And we were able to offload his contract. You just know it’s for a short duration and you hope he doesn’t fall off a cliff at the end. Is it my preferred course of action? No. But if it puts a good squad over the top I’m good with it.
 

Hoop Head

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I’d say Paul worked out. Took us back to playoffs. Got to Finals. Won 64 games. And we were able to offload his contract. You just know it’s for a short duration and you hope he doesn’t fall off a cliff at the end. Is it my preferred course of action? No. But if it puts a good squad over the top I’m good with it.

That's why trading for KD never made sense. We had a great PG and SG, good forwards, and an above average Center. We offed all of our forwards, starting SF, PF, and first F off the bench for KD, as well as a ton of picks. It wasn't a position of need. While KD is better than Mikal I don't think he's 4 1st rounders and a starting PF better. It was so shortsighted. We should have been looking for a replacement for Paul and not an upgrade at forward.
 

Covert Rain

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I’d say Paul worked out. Took us back to playoffs. Got to Finals. Won 64 games. And we were able to offload his contract. You just know it’s for a short duration and you hope he doesn’t fall off a cliff at the end. Is it my preferred course of action? No. But if it puts a good squad over the top I’m good with it.
I would say Paul SORT OF worked out. Paul couldn't be depended on from in injury perspective. He had the worst timing with his injuries and was never really healthy it seemed during stints in the playoffs. If you can't depend on a player I don't think you can say he fully worked out.
 

Hoop Head

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I would say Paul SORT OF worked out. Paul couldn't be depended on from in injury perspective. He had the worst timing with his injuries and was never really healthy it seemed during stints in the playoffs. If you can't depend on a player I don't think you can say he fully worked out.

Paul ended over a decade long playoff drought with an NBA Finals run and 3 years later was flipped for something with equal injury problems but similar on court impact. He worked out. There's zero debate on that. To quibble over whether he "kind of" worked out highlights faulty expectations as a fan, not his value or impact.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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That's why trading for KD never made sense. We had a great PG and SG, good forwards, and an above average Center. We offed all of our forwards, starting SF, PF, and first F off the bench for KD, as well as a ton of picks. It wasn't a position of need. While KD is better than Mikal I don't think he's 4 1st rounders and a starting PF better. It was so shortsighted. We should have been looking for a replacement for Paul and not an upgrade at forward.
Let’s not make stuff up. We did NOT have a great pg. Paul was a shell of the guy that we ran out there for the prior two seasons. And we had one terrific young forward and an okay cam Johnson. I liked cam, but he’s not a special or even good player. He’s likely an average starting forward and maybe below average for a pf. If you’re talking about jae crowder he wasn’t a part of this team other than by contract by the time we made the trade.

The trade has been a disaster. But the arguments you’re forwarding just aren’t correct.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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I would say Paul SORT OF worked out. Paul couldn't be depended on from in injury perspective. He had the worst timing with his injuries and was never really healthy it seemed during stints in the playoffs. If you can't depend on a player I don't think you can say he fully worked out.
But that’s frequently a gamble you have to take. See kawhi or Paul George.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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I would say Paul SORT OF worked out. Paul couldn't be depended on from in injury perspective. He had the worst timing with his injuries and was never really healthy it seemed during stints in the playoffs. If you can't depend on a player I don't think you can say he fully worked out.
Also, he lead to the finals. Someplace we’ve only been twice before. I don’t know how you can even say “sort of.”
 

Hoop Head

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Let’s not make stuff up. We did NOT have a great pg. Paul was a shell of the guy that we ran out there for the prior two seasons. And we had one terrific young forward and an okay cam Johnson. I liked cam, but he’s not a special or even good player. He’s likely an average starting forward and maybe below average for a pf. If you’re talking about jae crowder he wasn’t a part of this team other than by contract by the time we made the trade.

The trade has been a disaster. But the arguments you’re forwarding just aren’t correct.

The time to make a KD trade was the off-season so a half a season wasn't wasted. That off-season Jae was a starter. Keep the team issues under wraps and deal for a new PG to replace Paul. Yes, he fell off in that final season here and his play represented we should have replaced him headed into that season, definitely not after.
 

Covert Rain

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Also, he lead to the finals. Someplace we’ve only been twice before. I don’t know how you can even say “sort of.”
Because you can't depend on him health wise. I would say that is a big part of the recipe.
 

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