Budda Baker Named Starter For The Pro Bowl

RON_IN_OC

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Another fun fact is that in 2023, 14 teams had a total of 11 interceptions or fewer as a team. Pat Surtain Jr had 1 int. Xavien Howard 1. Derwin James 1. Marshon Lattimore 1. TreDavious White 1.
Playing like trash...haha
 

dreamcastrocks

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Again, uninformed. You are taking 4 stats, some of which are completely random outcome stats, and equating that to poor play.
No, I took arguably the 4 most important stats and in part equating that into poor play.
You are citing Budda as having 0 sacks as a negative when he blitzed 14 times on the season. The lowest of his career. The next lowest was 35, then 44, and now other season with less than 55. His highest sack total of any season is 2. So he was blitzed at a career low level and had two less sacks than his season high.
It certainly isn't a positive.
He also had his lowest tackles numbers of any season outside of his rookie year. is it because he had a bad year...? No, it is because he was used a high S in zone coverage for a coaching staff that preached preventing explosive plays.
Whether it was by design/scheme or not, Budda didn't play well. How about another stat: Baker allowed his highest passer rating since 2020 at 110.4.
No ints...well he played for a team that was the 2nd worst in the NFL in pressure rates per drop back. 2nd worst in overall pressures. 3rd worst in sacks. 2nd is points allowed. Shocking that Budda didn't have int's when his role was to play deep and try to cover for bad CBs, on a defense that got bottom of the league pressure on opposing QBs, and was frequently trailing in games.
He should be elevating the players around him right? Isn't that what players like him should do? I'd love to see the argument how his play made him, or the defense play better. I'll wait.
 

Chopper0080

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More fun facts. Baker is the 8th highest paid S. The total amount of ints combined for the 7 players paid more than him is 11. If you remove Jessie Bates, that number is 5. In fact, Budda Baker had the same number of ints as the beloved Minkah Fitzpatrick.

Also fun...the Cardinals other S Jalen Thompson who people on the board say is not good, had 4 ints. More than all 9 S making over 14 mil per season except Jessie Bates.
 

Chopper0080

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No, I took arguably the 4 most important stats and in part equating that into poor play.

It certainly isn't a positive.

Whether it was by design/scheme or not, Budda didn't play well. How about another stat: Baker allowed his highest passer rating since 2020 at 110.4.

He should be elevating the players around him right? Isn't that what players like him should do? I'd love to see the argument how his play made him, or the defense play better. I'll wait.
In the 12 games Budda started he gave up a total of 98 yards after catch and had a 6.5% missed tackle rate. His replacement K'Von Wallace, in the 6 games he played defensive snaps, gave up 88 yards after catch and had a 12.2% missed tackle rate. Baker gave up a 63.3% completion rate. Wallace a 75% completion rate. Baker in 12 games was targeted a total of 30 times. Wallace in 6 games, 24.

So, in comparison to his replacement, Budda gave up less yards after catch, missed less tackles, had a lower completion % allowed and was targeted less. All of those things elevated the defense in comparison to when he was not on the field.
 

dreamcastrocks

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In the 12 games Budda started he gave up a total of 98 yards after catch and had a 6.5% missed tackle rate. His replacement K'Von Wallace, in the 6 games he played defensive snaps, gave up 88 yards after catch and had a 12.2% missed tackle rate. Baker gave up a 63.3% completion rate. Wallace a 75% completion rate. Baker in 12 games was targeted a total of 30 times. Wallace in 6 games, 24.

So, in comparison to his replacement, Budda gave up less yards after catch, missed less tackles, had a lower completion % allowed and was targeted less. All of those things elevated the defense in comparison to when he was not on the field.
Comparison to his replacement, that's what we are going with? Take nearly every starter and replace them with a bench player and the stats will drop. It is why they are bench players after all. Especially when you compare it to a player who has earned All-Pro status in the past.
 

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One of my favorite comments of the year.

Budda was asked to just help keep ish from getting out of control on a wholly undermanned defense.

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I think the quibble is between you and others implying Budda was bad/trash/poor and others who look at the traditional role of a safety and think he did an okay job, all things considered.

Few if anyone here are saying he was a worthy 2023 Pro Bowl selection, but good posters are saying that he wasn't outright bad.
 

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Comparison to his replacement, that's what we are going with? Take nearly every starter and replace them with a bench player and the stats will drop. It is why they are bench players after all. Especially when you compare it to a player who has earned All-Pro status in the past.

That didn't happen with our truly garbage defensive line. Everyone we put there was indistinguishably putrid.

Also didn't happen at TE where Trey McBride completely outperformed the corpse of Zach Ertz.

Kei'Trel Clark was the starter this season until he was more-than-aptly replaced by Antonio Hamilton, who was also not that good.
 

dreamcastrocks

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That didn't happen with our truly garbage defensive line. Everyone we put there was indistinguishably putrid.
When you replace players with equal talent and skill, that typically happens. I think we can all agree there should be a huge drop off between Budda and Wallace.
Also didn't happen at TE where Trey McBride completely outperformed the corpse of Zach Ertz.
We all know that Ertz was a complete shell of himself.
Kei'Trel Clark was the starter this season until he was more-than-aptly replaced by Antonio Hamilton, who was also not that good.
His benching was one of the most puzzling decisions of the season for me.
 

dreamcastrocks

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I'm just happy that somebody from our team got named to the Pro Bowl.
If anyone from our team should have made it, it probably should have been McBride. He probably was the 3rd or 4th best TE in the conference. It definitely isn't worth squabbling over though.
 

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Ha, who says this?

I think Jalen Thompson is awesome! He was our best player on defense by a mile this past season, and I feel a little bad for him that he doesn't have more capable teammates!

Kind of like watching Aeneas laboring on all those awful teams in the 90s!. From 1995 - 1998, AW had 27 interceptions (27!), but the Cardinals only went 23-41 during that stretch!

Anyway... yeah, BB isn't trash by any means, and our poor front seven negatively affects his performance for sure, but he's not playing up to his current contract!
 
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Chopper0080

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Comparison to his replacement, that's what we are going with? Take nearly every starter and replace them with a bench player and the stats will drop. It is why they are bench players after all. Especially when you compare it to a player who has earned All-Pro status in the past.
You asked for proof that he made his team better, I gave that to you. You stated he had a bad year based upon his int numbers, and I showed you how his stats are comparable to other top S. You can't say a player had a bad year when he is showing he is unarguably better than the league average guy who replaced him when he was out. Better than average equals good.

Like I said at the start, Budda being bad or having a bad year is an uninformed take. I have given you information proving he had an above average season. I have given you proof that ints are not a stat to be used for proving if a player is good or not. I have given you proof that his sack rates are due to his role more than a lack of production. You can continue to triple down on being wrong and I will happily respond with the laughing emoji.
 

Chopper0080

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I think Jalen Thompson is awesome! He was our best player on defense by a mile this past season, and I feel a little bad for him that he doesn't have more capable teammates!

Kind of like watching Aeneas on all those awful teams in the 90s!. From 1995 - 1998, AW had 27 interceptions (27!), but the Cardinals only went 23-41 during that stretch!

Anyway... yeah, BB isn't trash by any means, and our poor front seven negatively affects his performance for sure, but he's not playing up to his current contract!
I feel this is a fair critique of Budda Baker regardless if it is speaking to his play or to the role of a S in this defense.
 

ASUCHRIS

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I think Jalen Thompson is awesome! He was our best player on defense by a mile this past season, and I feel a little bad for him that he doesn't have more capable teammates!

Kind of like watching Aeneas on all those awful teams in the 90s!. From 1995 - 1998, AW had 27 interceptions (27!), but the Cardinals only went 23-41 during that stretch!

Anyway... yeah, BB isn't trash by any means, and our poor front seven negatively affects his performance for sure, but he's not playing up to his current contract!
Yeah, this is all very simple. I don't remember many members saying bad things about Jalen Thompson. He's a good player, and actually does get INT's. Budda is a good player but if the options are paying him top money again, I don't see the value. He isn't much of a playmaker, he's getting older, and continues to get dinged up with injuries. With his playing style, those issues are unlikely to improve.
 

dreamcastrocks

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You asked for proof that he made his team better, I gave that to you. You stated he had a bad year based upon his int numbers, and I showed you how his stats are comparable to other top S. You can't say a player had a bad year when he is showing he is unarguably better than the league average guy who replaced him when he was out. Better than average equals good.

Like I said at the start, Budda being bad or having a bad year is an uninformed take.

You can be a great player and have a bad year. That doesn't make you a bad player, it means you had a bad season.
I have given you information proving he had an above average season. I have given you proof that ints are not a stat to be used for proving if a player is good or not. I have given you proof that his sack rates are due to his role more than a lack of production.
I also gave you data that he didn't.
You can continue to triple down on being wrong and I will happily respond with the laughing emoji.
You can also try to prove a point without resorting to this. Cool it.
 

RON_IN_OC

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I think the quibble is between you and others implying Budda was bad/trash/poor and others who look at the traditional role of a safety and think he did an okay job, all things considered.

Few if anyone here are saying he was a worthy 2023 Pro Bowl selection, but good posters are saying that he wasn't outright bad.
Who am I quibbling with?
 

Chopper0080

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You can be a great player and have a bad year. That doesn't make you a bad player, it means you had a bad season.

I also gave you data that he didn't.

You can also try to prove a point without resorting to this. Cool it.
Again, I have addressed and given you stats in contrast to every point you made. Your data also says Minkah Fitzpatrick, Derwin James, Pat Surtain, and several other top players had bad years. That is what shows they aren't appropriate stats to use. At this point you are are just refusing to admit you are wrong. That is on you, not me.
 

dreamcastrocks

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Again, I have addressed and given you stats in contrast to every point you made. Your data also says Minkah Fitzpatrick, Derwin James, Pat Surtain, and several other top players had bad years.
Passer Rating
Budda Baker - 101
Fitzpatrick - 65.9
James - 82 to go with 2 sacks, 2 FR, and an INT
Surtain plays CB, so weird comparison.

That is what shows they aren't appropriate stats to use.
What that shows is that you can ignore stats that don't suit your narrative.
At this point you are are just refusing to admit you are wrong. That is on you, not me.
At this point, you are trolling. Knock it off. Final warning.
 

Chopper0080

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Passer Rating
Budda Baker - 101
Fitzpatrick - 65.9
James - 82 to go with 2 sacks, 2 FR, and an INT
Surtain plays CB, so weird comparison.


What that shows is that you can ignore stats that don't suit your narrative.

At this point, you are trolling. Knock it off. Final warning.
Pointing out that you are ignoring the statistics I am providing you which are actually relevant is not trolling.

Pointing out that your claim of sacks, fumble recoveries, forced fumbles, and interceptions are not proof of a player having a good/bad year is not trolling.

We can discuss relevant stats like passer rating if you like...I prefer completion % because I feel that is less subjective with today's zone schemes.

Let's compare Derwin and Budda

Budda - 12 games
Comp% 63.3
Pass Rating 106.8
Yds per tgt 9.8
YAC 98
Missed tackle % 6.5

Derwin - 16 games
Comp% 68.8%
Pass Rating 93.7
Yds per tgt 7.3
YAC 218
Missed tackle % 8.8

Those are comparable stats. To another Pro Bowl player. To another highly paid S. I haven't heard people saying Derwin James had a bad year. Again, it proves that the claim that Budda Baker had a bad year is just wrong.

Baker may not have generated turnovers or negative plays like people may want from a player making what he does, but that is a completely different conversation.
 

dreamcastrocks

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Pointing out that you are ignoring the statistics I am providing you which are actually relevant is not trolling.
Pointing out that you are going to use the laughing emoji how you did, IS trolling.
 

dreamcastrocks

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Baker may not have generated turnovers or negative plays like people may want from a player making what he does, but that is a completely different conversation.
Here is a major crux of our debate. How can you say that Budda played above average without doing these things?
 
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