Free Agency 2018

[ColdPickleNachos]

I'm fine for a 2 way contract for Harrison.

But his sample size numbers are really small. Yeah, he had a positive +,- in his limited playing time but he had a +38 in the Dallas Mavericks tanktastic finale, soooooo, that obviously skews things quite a bit.

That final box score is a sight to behold. We put out a pretty putrid squad and the Mavericks countered with a stupendous disaster. Harrison dropped 18-10, Alec Peters scored 36 off the bench, the Mavs were so terrified of winning that even a marginal player like Yogi Farrell only saw 7 minutes, Aaron Harrison played the full 48 minutes for the Mavericks, that one game accounts for 15% of the minutes he's played in his entire 3 year career.

Agreed on that last game, but there were a string of games where it was almost a running joke that Harrison should play more because he almost always had a positive plus-minus, which was not the case for any other Sun.

 

[ColdPickleNachos]

To follow up, Harrison played 23 games. In 15 of those, he had a positive + -, and he was neutral in another.

Given that the Suns only won three of those games, that's very impressive, even in an admittedly small sample size.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/harrish01/gamelog/2018

Troy Daniels, on the other hand, played 79 games last year and had a positive + - only 23 times.

Shaq Harrison: Positive + - in 65% of games he played last year.

Troy Daniels: Positive + - in 29% of games he played last year.

Obviously, there are a ton of factors at play here, but that's a pretty stark contrast.

Booker was 18/54 for 33% positive (as a control), but was also playing as a starter with outmatched teammates all season. Daniels got to play against reserves, as Harrison did, a lot.

 

[Hoop Head]

Isaiah Canaan also had a good plus/minus when he was playing and he was actually helping the team win games when he was playing. I know we were tanking with Harrison so he can't be faulted for the losses but comparing those 2, I like Canaan more. I suspect they'll battle it out in training camp for that 3rd PG role and I'm fine with that. Those are the sort of players you want in as the 3rd PG and if they compete for the spot, even better because you know whoever wins the spot will be deserving. I like Canaan more as a potential backup PG than Harrison though. He's been around the league a bit more and has even played in the postseason recently, just the year prior in Chicago.

He had a positive +/- in 10 of the 20 games he played in but more importantly the teams record was 9-11 when he played also. The team played quite well when Canaan was here, even helping lead us to a couple of wins without Booker, which was impressive.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/canaais01/gamelog/2018

 

[Hoop Head]

Somebody should have started a 2018-19 PG thread. All of the spots, starter, backup, and third string, have been debated a lot in a number of threads now. I can't wait until we get to training camp so we know how the rotation might look next year. We still got a ways to go but I'm excited, for the first time in a long time, about winning games rather than just seeing our young players try to show what they can do.

 

[Mainstreet]

Somebody should have started a 2018-19 PG thread. All of the spots, starter, backup, and third string, have been debated a lot in a number of threads now. I can't wait until we get to training camp so we know how the rotation might look next year. We still got a ways to go but I'm excited, for the first time in a long time, about winning games rather than just seeing our young players try to show what they can do.

It's never too late. Go for it.

 

[Hoop Head]

I was surprised that IT signed with Denver for a league minimum deal but I also suggested the Suns should look at him as a PG option. I was looking at his stats last season to get an idea of how he played on the Lakers after he left Cleveland and was surprised to see something from his last season in Boston, the 2016-17 season where he finished 4th in MVP voting, made the All-NBA 2nd team, and finished 3rd in scoring with 28.9 ppg. In that year he only had 5 double doubles despite playing in 76 games and scoring over 10 points in every game he played in. He averaged 5.9 assists that season but somehow only had 10 or more just 5 times. I thought he might have had some bad scoring nights and while he did, that wasn't what kept him from posting double doubles. He just really isn't a playmaker.

I knew he wasn't a big playmaker like a Rondo or Chris Paul but I thought he had more than that. I'm a little surprised he averaged that many assists because it was odd for him to actually post more than his average. He really is no more of a PG than Allen Iverson was back in the day. In fact they're quite similar players. Iverson was a little bigger but both were small guards who played hard and helped their team win a lot of games but none when it really mattered. I expected to see more assists since he got All-NBA honors and was an MVP candidate who was listed as a PG but that definitely wasn't the case. I'm sorry for suggesting the idea. I guess adding him as a bench player would have been good if he'd actually accept that role, but throughout his career he never really has. Hopefully he keeps the Nuggets from improving too much so we can overtake them in the standings next year.

Here's a link to his stats, in case anyone is interested though. It's his game log, actually, for the 2016-17 season.

 

[ColdPickleNachos]

I knew he wasn't a big playmaker like a Rondo or Chris Paul but I thought he had more than that. I'm a little surprised he averaged that many assists because it was odd for him to actually post more than his average. He really is no more of a PG than Allen Iverson was back in the day. In fact they're quite similar players. Iverson was a little bigger but both were small guards who played hard and helped their team win a lot of games but none when it really mattered.

I think a very poor man's Allen Iverson is a good comparison. Although Iverson's career average in assists (which includes several weak years at the end) is on par with IT's best year. Also, not saying Iverson was a good defender, but he averaged nearly 3 steals per game several times, an added element IT does not possess.

Ultimately, the issue with IT is the same as the issue with AI. Isaiah Thomas is about Isaiah Thomas. He is what he is and has never seemed interested in adapting. So what you get is a high volume alpha dog that opposing teams can exploit on defense.

That can work to a degree. The 76ers team Iverson took to the NBA finals was built perfectly around him, just as the Celtics were built perfectly around Thomas. Put him on the court with defensive-minded players who don't need the ball much and his strengths are highlighted while his weaknesses are minimized. That's why Orlando made a ton of sense and why the Nuggets fit seems destined to cause issues.

I've always maintained that if Thomas could swallow his pride and focus on being an elite sixth man who is happy to pick his moments and embrace his role, then he would be extremely valuable to any team. I just don't think that's how he's wired though. The same attributes that allowed him to put up nearly 30 ppg in an NBA season despite his diminutive size (unwavering confidence, cutthroat mentality, rigid focus) also make him a difficult fit for most teams. That's before even factoring in the injury concern.

I was never upset, even at the height of his success, that the Suns traded him. I was only upset that they got so little. (Though it seems like he may never have had the value one would think just looking at his counting stats.)

 

[Hoop Head]

I was never upset, even at the height of his success, that the Suns traded him. I was only upset that they got so little. (Though it seems like he may never have had the value one would think just looking at his counting stats.)

At the time, it seemed fair, almost. I thought they should have gotten a future 1st rather than the pick they received but that's splitting hairs, really. They may have gotten more, they might not have, if they waited until the season was over. I don't blame them for trading him away though. I do think if it was any team other than Boston though that McD would have backed out when Dragic still pressed to be moved. McD wasn't going to do Ainge wrong and back out. He might have for someone else but not the guy who helped get him his GM job. Was that foolish? Sure. It's also possible that's just my perception of it though and not what actually happened. The Suns weren't going very far with IT so it's not much of an issue. Might have made the 8th seed if we kept him, perhaps not.

I do know the NBA landscape looks very different today if that deal wasn't made though. Boston was a few years away and he helped them speed up their rebuild. It's weird to think that IT trade the Suns made could have changed today's NBA a lot but it is true. Maybe we make the playoffs, Hornacek doesn't get fired so New York had a different coach and who knows if Melo still gets deal. That kills the Kyrie trade also. The Bucks look different since they didn't get Bledsoe this year. Booker probably wouldn't be a Sun. Lebron's Cavs look a lot different. If the Warriors won the finals matchup their 2nd year then Durant doesn't join the Warriors. Who knows what all ended up effected by that though. That one string gets pulled though and everything comes undone, across the league.

I feel bad for IT because of how the Celtics treated him in the Kyrie trade but they reached their peak with him. Paying him the max wouldn't have been the worst max deal ever but they'd be kicking themselves in 3 year from now since they'd be paying him over $35 million a year.

 

[JCSunsfan]

At the time, it seemed fair, almost. I thought they should have gotten a future 1st rather than the pick they received but that's splitting hairs, really. They may have gotten more, they might not have, if they waited until the season was over. I don't blame them for trading him away though. I do think if it was any team other than Boston though that McD would have backed out when Dragic still pressed to be moved. McD wasn't going to do Ainge wrong and back out. He might have for someone else but not the guy who helped get him his GM job. Was that foolish? Sure. It's also possible that's just my perception of it though and not what actually happened. The Suns weren't going very far with IT so it's not much of an issue. Might have made the 8th seed if we kept him, perhaps not.

I do know the NBA landscape looks very different today if that deal wasn't made though. Boston was a few years away and he helped them speed up their rebuild. It's weird to think that IT trade the Suns made could have changed today's NBA a lot but it is true. Maybe we make the playoffs, Hornacek doesn't get fired so New York had a different coach and who knows if Melo still gets deal. That kills the Kyrie trade also. The Bucks look different since they didn't get Bledsoe this year. Booker probably wouldn't be a Sun. Lebron's Cavs look a lot different. If the Warriors won the finals matchup their 2nd year then Durant doesn't join the Warriors. Who knows what all ended up effected by that though. That one string gets pulled though and everything comes undone, across the league.

I feel bad for IT because of how the Celtics treated him in the Kyrie trade but they reached their peak with him. Paying him the max wouldn't have been the worst max deal ever but they'd be kicking themselves in 3 year from now since they'd be paying him over $35 million a year.

Oh, it would have been right up there as one of the worst max deals ever.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Oh, it would have been right up there as one of the worst max deals ever.

Yes it would and I think that's true even without the injury. And I don't agree with the idea that Ainge "done him wrong". The little guy made it clear, in multiple interviews, that he was GOING TO GET THE MAX. Once that came out, what choice did Ainge have but to trade him. Danny knew they'd manufactured stardom for the guy and that the chances were slim of winning anything with him as a grossly overpaid max player.

 

[Mainstreet]

At the time, it seemed fair, almost. I thought they should have gotten a future 1st rather than the pick they received but that's splitting hairs, really. They may have gotten more, they might not have, if they waited until the season was over. I don't blame them for trading him away though. I do think if it was any team other than Boston though that McD would have backed out when Dragic still pressed to be moved. McD wasn't going to do Ainge wrong and back out. He might have for someone else but not the guy who helped get him his GM job. Was that foolish? Sure. It's also possible that's just my perception of it though and not what actually happened. The Suns weren't going very far with IT so it's not much of an issue. Might have made the 8th seed if we kept him, perhaps not.

I do know the NBA landscape looks very different today if that deal wasn't made though. Boston was a few years away and he helped them speed up their rebuild. It's weird to think that IT trade the Suns made could have changed today's NBA a lot but it is true. Maybe we make the playoffs, Hornacek doesn't get fired so New York had a different coach and who knows if Melo still gets deal. That kills the Kyrie trade also. The Bucks look different since they didn't get Bledsoe this year. Booker probably wouldn't be a Sun. Lebron's Cavs look a lot different. If the Warriors won the finals matchup their 2nd year then Durant doesn't join the Warriors. Who knows what all ended up effected by that though. That one string gets pulled though and everything comes undone, across the league.

I feel bad for IT because of how the Celtics treated him in the Kyrie trade but they reached their peak with him. Paying him the max wouldn't have been the worst max deal ever but they'd be kicking themselves in 3 year from now since they'd be paying him over $35 million a year.

I totally agree the Celtics backtracked on promises made to IT. He believed he was going to get a max deal from the Celtics.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I totally agree the Celtics backtracked on promises made to IT. He believed he was going to get a max deal from the Celtics.

What makes you say this? I've seen nothing from either camp to suggest it but maybe I missed something?

 

[Mainstreet]

What makes you say this? I've seen nothing from either camp to suggest it but maybe I missed something?

This was my take listening to comments from IT before his injury. I'm sure you can find them.

 

[Mainstreet]

@AzStevenCal

Here is a comment from IT. It was my first hit on a search. There must be a lot more.

This is what Thomas told CSN New England last July about his upcoming free agency: “They better bring out the Brinks truck,” he said. “They’re paying everybody else. I gotta get something.”

Thomas said it with a smile, but make no mistake: at 29, and after making roughly $29 million through what will be his first seven NBA seasons when he hits free agency next July, he is — quite understandably — going to be looking to cash in. That’s especially true when one considers a max contract next summer will begin with an annual salary of more than the total amount he’ll have made in his career.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...cs-make/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.0631af23270d

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

This was my take listening to comments from IT before his injury. I'm sure you can find them.

That’s IT expecting a max. I don’t recall ever seeing anything from the Celtics even hinting they might do that.

 

[GatorAZ]

I totally agree the Celtics backtracked on promises made to IT. He believed he was going to get a max deal from the Celtics.

Promises are made with a pen and paper.

 

[Mainstreet]

That’s IT expecting a max. I don’t recall ever seeing anything from the Celtics even hinting they might do that.

Promises are made with a pen and paper.

I was asked to show something from either camp. I haven't researched the Celtics but I do not recall anything concrete from their camp.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I was asked to show something from either camp. I haven't researched the Celtics but I do not recall anything concrete from their camp.

I wasn’t commenting on your research. If I were I would’ve quoted you. Rather I was stating my recollection that it was IT crowing about $$$ But nary a peep from the Celtics indicating any kind of promise or agreement. I would’ve been shocked if the ainge led Celtics would’ve done anything so foolish.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I responded to you before you posted the link

 

[Mainstreet]

I wasn’t commenting on your research. If I were I would’ve quoted you. Rather I was stating my recollection that it was IT crowing about $$$ But nary a peep from the Celtics indicating any kind of promise or agreement. I would’ve been shocked if the ainge led Celtics would’ve done anything so foolish.

I don't recall the Celtics reciprocating the sentiment either. Ainge is pretty clever when it comes to these things as you point out.

 

[Superbone]

Thomas's comments were the beginning of the end of his time with the Celtics. He got greedy and it bit him in the ass. Most knew it was the Celtics' system that elevated Thomas's game and that he wasn't a max player. When he started making those demands, Ainge started looking for ways to move him. Ainge is shrewd like that.

 

[Ronin]

This would have been so messed up if he had actually signed the contract.

Adrian Wojnarowski‏Verified account@wojespn 8m8 minutes ago
Free agent forward Nemanja Bjelica -- who had agreed to a one-year deal with the 76ers -- informed the team on Monday that he will stay in Europe this season, league sources tell ESPN. He never signed his contract with Philadelphia.

 

[Ronin]

Report: Marcus Smart, Celtics Agree on 4-Year $52 Million Contract

https://bleacherreport.com/articles...t-celtics-agree-on-4-year-52-million-contract

 

[JCSunsfan]

I don't recall the Celtics reciprocating the sentiment either. Ainge is pretty clever when it comes to these things as you point out.

This is exactly right. Look how Ainge has dealt with Smart. Let him test the market THEN start negotiating. Pay them what they’re worth, not what they thought they’re worth.

I gotta admit. I was pretty critical of McD for not signing Len to something reasonable. Instead he just let the QO offer stand. In retrospect it was exactly the right thing to do.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

This is exactly right. Look how Ainge has dealt with Smart. Let him test the market THEN start negotiating. Pay them what they’re worth, not what they thought they’re worth.

I gotta admit. I was pretty critical of McD for not signing Len to something reasonable. Instead he just let the QO offer stand. In retrospect it was exactly the right thing to do.

Pretty difficult to argue ainge isn’t top of the league right now. Seems everything he touches turns to gold and then rots when he discards it.