Legal Tampering period thread and Free agency 2021.

[BritCard]

I’d be okay if we went out and signed Duke Johnson. Throw in TE Jesse James and we could go cb ( I’d take a chance on Fairley) and then Wr in round two.
An experienced backfield of Edmonds, Connors and Johnson would be a nice blend.

All are good receivers too. Kliff could invent some 30 personnel plays seeing we don't have any TE's.

Maybe he's evolving football. What is a TE anyway except a heavier, taller RB that can't run the ball and lines up a couple of yards away?

Multi back sets every down

 

[Krangodnzr]

Why am I not surprised that the usual suspects have reared their heads to tell me I'm talking nonsense? lol

I get it. You either are perfectly happy with our RB talent or don't care about the position in the least. I'm getting a lot of "Stout, you have NO REASON to feel this way" about my opinions. Yeah, 'cause that kind of argument has swayed me in the past lololol

We don't have good RBs. That is my opinion. We need better RBs to realistically have a shot at anything. Not world-beaters, but at least one starting-quality RB (we don't currently have any). Another opinion/couple opinions. Absolutely nothing I have read, including all the snide remarks and "don't you understand" condescension has or will sway me from those opinions. And there's nothing outlandish about those opinions. So white noise away, folks.

Bottom line: Yinz are happy with what's been done at RB, and I'm not. I'm sure you feel all I'm doing is throwing out white noise myself. Fair enough. All I ask is that the folks who don't rate the RB position/think Keim has done enough at the position stop acting like there's no other possible opinion. I am as optimistic that this will happen as I am about our RB room at this time

Nice straw man.

I haven't read a single person say Keim has done enough at RB, but I think many are saying that Conner is approximate to Drake. And improved OL play with one of the best centers over the past decade should have better results.

What you fail to account for is that MULTIPLE Super Bowl teams have had backfields no better than what the Cardinals have right now. That means the chicken little routine isnt rational; if the passing game comes together more this year, the Cardinals have a fairly clear way forward that doesn't require anything more than replacement level play from the RB position.

If I was able to get what I want out of pick #16 and #49, I'd want to walk away with a combination of Horn/Farley/Newsome and my favorite player in the draft, Chapel Hill RB Javonte Williams...so that shows you what my thoughts are.

But the Conner signing means the Cardinals don't HAVE TO go this route. It means there is flexibility. The sky is not falling. This is great signing from that perspective.

 

[Ronin]

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[Solar7]

Did Denver win a Superbowl with a poor Peyton Manning at QB? Yes they did. Did he play 10 games that year, starting 9, and go 7-2. Yes he did. Did he have a passer rating of 67? Yes he did.

This isn't complicated. The question was how many of those teams that didn't have great running backs didn't have great QB's and one of those is the 2015 Broncos. Including Osweiler if you want to include playoffs.

I never once have challenged that the 2015 Broncos got there in an unorthodox way. But you called earlier Peyton Manning a corpse. The Peyton Manning that won MVP, and set a passing record for TDs.

What traits am I ascribing onto ours? Where have I said we have a great QB and defense? I have specifically said we have a good QB, you absolutely don't need a great one to win a SB, and that our focus should be on improving the defense because you absolutely do need a good defense.

To win a SB you need a decent QB and a great D or a great QB and a good D. there's no guarantee you win with those things as you need good coaching and a lot of luck, but you do need those things.

What you categorically don't need is a bellcow running back or even a very good one. As I've proven over and over again through the magic of NFL history and statistics.

Hell, WE went to the 2009 Superbowl with 399 yards from Hightower, 514 yards from James and 187 from Arrington. When the running game was more key. That's only 1100 between them.

So with that all said, why can't you drop the idea we need to improve running backs and focus that energy on the defense? Because we absolutely do need good CB's and a good D overall.

First, and I should have done this a long time ago, I'm not advocating for a bellcow RB. I haven't said that and it's time to set aside the term. I want a capable starter. Edmonds and Conner are guys you maybe hope for 400-700 yard from throughout the year, mostly incapable of having big games because of their limited athleticism or size. Conner used to have this but has seemed to have lost a step or three.

Any team can catch lightning in a bottle. But you have to maximize your chances. Would you in any way shape or form characterize the Super Bowl rosters of the Eagles (with Nick Foles), 2015 Broncos (with Brock Osweiler), Giants, even our own 2009 Cardinals, as built to go to the Super Bowl? I strongly doubt it.

Saying something could happen for this team is different than something is likely to happen for this team. What I want to see for our long term chances is for Kyler Murray to grow, and young QBs grow when the running game can support them so not every single chance at success is in their hands on every play.

I don't care how we acquire the back that helps Kyler do that, but I don't see him on the roster, and I don't see us taking a back in any round that even makes it likely they make the final 53.

It is what it is, but like 70%+ of this team, I don't have to be happy about it.

 

[BritCard]

I never once have challenged that the 2015 Broncos got there in an unorthodox way. But you called earlier Peyton Manning a corpse. The Peyton Manning that won MVP, and set a passing record for TDs.



First, and I should have done this a long time ago, I'm not advocating for a bellcow RB. I haven't said that and it's time to set aside the term. I want a capable starter. Edmonds and Conner are guys you maybe hope for 400-700 yard from throughout the year, mostly incapable of having big games because of their limited athleticism or size. Conner used to have this but has seemed to have lost a step or three.

Any team can catch lightning in a bottle. But you have to maximize your chances. Would you in any way shape or form characterize the Super Bowl rosters of the Eagles (with Nick Foles), 2015 Broncos (with Brock Osweiler), Giants, even our own 2009 Cardinals, as built to go to the Super Bowl? I strongly doubt it.

Saying something could happen for this team is different than something is likely to happen for this team. What I want to see for our long term chances is for Kyler Murray to grow, and young QBs grow when the running game can support them so not every single chance at success is in their hands on every play.

I don't care how we acquire the back that helps Kyler do that, but I don't see him on the roster, and I don't see us taking a back in any round that even makes it likely they make the final 53.

It is what it is, but like 70%+ of this team, I don't have to be happy about it.

I was always referring to 2015 Peyton Manning, never once 2013 Peyton.

This team has a bunch of holes far more in need of filling than giving $8m a year to a RB. It comes down to this. You can get, and many have done, 1300 yards from a bunch of guys that cost you sub $5m and spread your injury risk or you can pay one guy $8m+. Aaron Jones, Drake and Carson are not star running backs but are commanding that money.

I star RB would be nice, but it's far from essential. When building a roster the smart play is RB by committee. Let's leave it there

 

[Solar7]

I was always referring to 2015 Peyton Manning, never once 2013 Peyton.

This team has a bunch of holes far more in need of filling than giving $8m a year to a RB. It comes down to this. You can get, and many have done, 1300 yards from a bunch of guys that cost you sub $5m and spread your injury risk or you can pay one guy $8m+. Aaron Jones, Drake and Carson are not star running backs but are commanding that money.

I star RB would be nice, but it's far from essential. When building a roster the smart play is RB by committee. Let's leave it there

That's putting words in my mouth. I never said $8M per to an RB. I disliked Drake and his contract maybe more than anyone on this board.

I just want a good, starting caliber running back. I don't think that's too much to ask.

 

[BritCard]

That's putting words in my mouth. I never said $8M per to an RB. I disliked Drake and his contract maybe more than anyone on this board.

I just want a good, starting caliber running back. I don't think that's too much to ask.

I wasn't putting words in your mouth. That's just what good, starting caliber running backs cost. Unless you draft one, and then they might not be a good starting caliber running back and we get into how a high pick RB is a wasted pick for a team with massive holes at more crucial positions.

 

[Solar7]

I wasn't putting words in your mouth. That's just what good, starting caliber running backs cost. Unless you draft one, and then they might not be a good starting caliber running back and we get into how a high pick RB is a wasted pick for a team with massive holes at more crucial positions.

It's really just Keim's issue. Poor planning. I was clamoring for an RB in the mid-rounds last year seeing this coming, so at least I'm consistent.

 

[Stout]

Nice straw man.

I haven't read a single person say Keim has done enough at RB, but I think many are saying that Conner is approximate to Drake. And improved OL play with one of the best centers over the past decade should have better results.

What you fail to account for is that MULTIPLE Super Bowl teams have had backfields no better than what the Cardinals have right now. That means the chicken little routine isnt rational; if the passing game comes together more this year, the Cardinals have a fairly clear way forward that doesn't require anything more than replacement level play from the RB position.

If I was able to get what I want out of pick #16 and #49, I'd want to walk away with a combination of Horn/Farley/Newsome and my favorite player in the draft, Chapel Hill RB Javonte Williams...so that shows you what my thoughts are.

But the Conner signing means the Cardinals don't HAVE TO go this route. It means there is flexibility. The sky is not falling. This is great signing from that perspective.

Bzz, incorrect. I don't have "to account for" anything when considering if I'm happy with the RB talent on this team. I'm not happy with it; I really don't care to argue about what Super Bowl teams have or haven't had compared to the cards. I see a deficiency, and I'm not nearly as happy with what we've done (or not done) there. I don't want to blow a high pick on it--certainly not our #1--but I don't want to wait for a late-round pick either. IMO Keim has put us in a real Catch-22

 

[Nate]

What I want to see for our long term chances is for Kyler Murray to grow, and young QBs grow when the running game can support them so not every single chance at success is in their hands on every play.

I strongly disagree with that statement. Any QB grows when they have both a functionable Oline and a number of receivers who can regularly get separation.

Any OL is only as good as its weakest link. Last year, we had three good to solid OLs at LT, LG and RT. Unfortunately, C was bad and RG was inconsistent.

After a nice start to the season, our opponents started to attack our weak links in that line, playing alongside and thereby making that problem worse.

What helps a QB most against constant quick pressure are several WR that are able to burn their defenders and create separation quickly, so that the QB has easy and consistent options.

We had one great wr last season, but if we lack anything in contrast to our opponents in the division, its a good wr2 and/or a good, sure handed pass catching TE.

Seattle has Metcalf + Lockett, the 49ers Samuel, Ayuk + Kittles and the Rams have Kupp, Woods, Reynolds.

 

[Ronin]

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[BritCard]

I strongly disagree with that statement. Any QB grows when they have both a functionable Oline and a number of receivers who can regularly get separation.

Any OL is only as good as its weakest link. Last year, we had three good to solid OLs at LT, LG and RT. Unfortunately, C was bad and RG was inconsistent.

After a nice start to the season, our opponents started to attack our weak links in that line, playing alongside and thereby making that problem worse.

What helps a QB most against constant quick pressure are several WR that are able to burn their defenders and create separation quickly, so that the QB has easy and consistent options.

We had one great wr last season, but if we lack anything in contrast to our opponents in the division, its a good wr2 and/or a good, sure handed pass catching TE.

Seattle has Metcalf + Lockett, the 49ers Samuel, Ayuk + Kittles and the Rams have Kupp, Woods, Reynolds.

In all this chat about running back nobody has mentioned we have a QB quite capable of 1000 yards.

 

[Cheesebeef]

In all this chat about running back nobody has mentioned we have a QB quite capable of 1000 yards.

this is a totally unfounded statement. In two years, he’s averaged 673 yards rushing in two seasons and last year, either injury or defenses starting to play the RPO shut the rushing game down considerably from the first half of the season.

That’s not to say Kyler isn’t a great threat rushing the ball. He is. But there’s only been three 1000 yard rushing seasons in the history of the league. To say our QB is quite capable of setting league records when he’s never even come within 100 yards of a 1000 is baseless and probably why people aren’t talking about it.

As great of a runner as Kyler is, he’s not the runner Lamar is in the open field. I also don’t think we WANT him running that much for fear of injury.

 

[BritCard]

I can't believe Maurice Hurst went unclaimed on waivers

 

[BritCard]

this is a totally unfounded statement. In two years, he’s averaged 673 yards rushing in two seasons and last year, either injury or defenses starting to play the RPO shut the rushing game down considerably from the first half of the season.

That’s not to say Kyler isn’t a great threat rushing the ball. He is. But there’s only been three 1000 yard rushing seasons in the history of the league. To say our QB is quite capable of setting league records when he’s never even come within 100 yards of a 1000 is baseless and probably why people aren’t talking about it.

As great of a runner as Kyler is, he’s not the runner Lamar is in the open field. I also don’t think we WANT him running that much for fear of injury.

Seriously?

He had 819 yards and 8 games with less than 35. Three with less than 20.

There were games we spent the whole game thread screaming "Why isn't Kliff running Kyler?"

He could easily have 1000 yards. Should have had it last year. Was going to do it easily at the halfway stage until teams figured Kliff out and Kliff had no answer.

 

[Solar7]

I strongly disagree with that statement. Any QB grows when they have both a functionable Oline and a number of receivers who can regularly get separation.

Any OL is only as good as its weakest link. Last year, we had three good to solid OLs at LT, LG and RT. Unfortunately, C was bad and RG was inconsistent.

After a nice start to the season, our opponents started to attack our weak links in that line, playing alongside and thereby making that problem worse.

What helps a QB most against constant quick pressure are several WR that are able to burn their defenders and create separation quickly, so that the QB has easy and consistent options.

We had one great wr last season, but if we lack anything in contrast to our opponents in the division, its a good wr2 and/or a good, sure handed pass catching TE.

Seattle has Metcalf + Lockett, the 49ers Samuel, Ayuk + Kittles and the Rams have Kupp, Woods, Reynolds.

Pretty much all of NFL history goes to show that successful young QBs have a strong ground game to help them get acquainted with the league. Undoubtedly, that begins with the offensive line, but you have to have talent at RB. I'm all for improving the OL, but someone decent has to run behind it.

Good QBs are supposed to elevate receiving talent. That doesn't mean not to give them any help, but the Bradys, Rodgers, even Mahomes of the world don't have their success predicated on how many first round picks are around them at WR.

In all this chat about running back nobody has mentioned we have a QB quite capable of 1000 yards.

We don't want this, for the most part. The guy just can't get hurt like he did last year and keep us from being able to do anything on offense. Especially when the RBs can't pick up the slack at all.

 

[BritCard]

Pretty much all of NFL history goes to show that successful young QBs have a strong ground game to help them get acquainted with the league. Undoubtedly, that begins with the offensive line, but you have to have talent at RB. I'm all for improving the OL, but someone decent has to run behind it.

Good QBs are supposed to elevate receiving talent. That doesn't mean not to give them any help, but the Bradys, Rodgers, even Mahomes of the world don't have their success predicated on how many first round picks are around them at WR.

On 133 rushes he was hit maybe 5 times? He's fantastic at avoiding hits.

When you have a unique talent like that which other teams don't you have to take advantage of it.

Even if he doesn't have 1000 and its 500-600 it's still a major contribution to the running game.

 

[Solar7]

On 133 rushes he was hit maybe 5 times? He's fantastic at avoiding hits.

When you have a unique talent like that which other teams don't you have to take advantage of it.

Even if he doesn't have 1000 and its 500-600 it's still a major contribution to the running game.

There's no doubt it's a helpful element of his game and he does avoid hits well, but it only takes one. It should be viewed as a bonus, not a reason to neglect RB.

 

[Nate]

Pretty much all of NFL history goes to show that successful young QBs have a strong ground game to help them get acquainted with the league. Undoubtedly, that begins with the offensive line, but you have to have talent at RB. I'm all for improving the OL, but someone decent has to run behind it.

Good QBs are supposed to elevate receiving talent. That doesn't mean not to give them any help, but the Bradys, Rodgers, even Mahomes of the world don't have their success predicated on how many first round picks are around them at WR.

Thats an old story told on television for a long time. For some time, certainly aided by rule changes, the tides have turned.

Today, the passing game makes and helps the running back and not the other way around.

Take Derrick Henry as an example. He started out relatively slowly, after being drafted 45th, with an 4,5 yards avg per attempt in his first and 4.2 yards avg per att in his second season with a relatively low workload. Just for comparisons sake, take Conners and Edmonds averages last year of 4,3 and 4,7 average yards per attempt. Henry followed this up with a stronger season and an 4.9 avg.

Then, during the 2019 season, Henry had an average of 3.9 yards per attempt through the first six games. His QB until half of game six of that season was Mariota. Then, Henrys production exploded.
Tannehill had his first start for Tennesse in game 7. From game 7 onwards, Henry averaged 5.9 yards per attempt for the rest of the season. In 2020, he averaged 5.4 yards per season.

You can have a look at any rb in the league. Prerequisite for their success and effectiveness (not totals) are a solid passing game. Thats not the case the other way around.

Lets look at the ten most effective runners (by avg/att) in the league and their qbs and wr:

1. Lamar Jackson Baltimore Hollywood Brown, Andrews, scheme
2. Kyler Murray Arizona Hopkins Kirk
3. JK Dobbins Baltimore Lamar, Brown, Andrews
4. Nick Chubb Cleveland Baker, Landry, Brown, Higgins, Hooper
5. Aaron Jones Green Bay Rogers, Adams, Valdez-Spalding
6. Derrick Henry Tennessee Tannehill, AJ Brown, Corey Davis, Jonnu Smith
7. Miles Sanders Philly
8. Ronald Jones Tampa Brady, Evans, Goodwin, Brown, Gronk, Miller
9. Dalvin Cook Minnesota Cousins, Thielen, Jefferson
10. Jonathan Taylor Indy TY Hilton, Pascal, Pittman

What have all of these rbs in common? Good qbs, some of the better olines and good receiving talent. Edit: with the exception of Philly.

Next example for a team with a young qb: Bills 2019 to 2020

Major changes from 2019 to 2020: addition of Stefon Diggs to Cole Beasley and John Brown

 

[Ronin]

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[Solar7]

Thats an old story told on television for a long time. For some time, certainly aided by rule changes, the tides have turned.

Today, the passing game makes and helps the running back and not the other way around.

Take Derrick Henry as an example. He started out relatively slowly, after being drafted 45th, with an 4,5 yards avg per attempt in his first and 4.2 yards avg per att in his second season with a relatively low workload. Just for comparisons sake, take Conners and Edmonds averages last year of 4,3 and 4,7 average yards per attempt. Henry followed this up with a stronger season and an 4.9 avg.

Then, during the 2019 season, Henry had an average of 3.9 yards per attempt through the first six games. His QB until half of game six of that season was Mariota. Then, Henrys production exploded.
Tannehill had his first start for Tennesse in game 7. From game 7 onwards, Henry averaged 5.9 yards per attempt for the rest of the season. In 2020, he averaged 5.4 yards per season.

You can have a look at any rb in the league. Prerequisite for their success and effectiveness (not totals) are a solid passing game. Thats not the case the other way around.

Lets look at the ten most effective runners (by avg/att) in the league and their qbs and wr:

1. Lamar Jackson Baltimore Hollywood Brown, Andrews, scheme
2. Kyler Murray Arizona Hopkins Kirk
3. JK Dobbins Baltimore Lamar, Brown, Andrews
4. Nick Chubb Cleveland Baker, Landry, Brown, Higgins, Hooper
5. Aaron Jones Green Bay Rogers, Adams, Valdez-Spalding
6. Derrick Henry Tennessee Tannehill, AJ Brown, Corey Davis, Jonnu Smith
7. Miles Sanders Philly
8. Ronald Jones Tampa Brady, Evans, Goodwin, Brown, Gronk, Miller
9. Dalvin Cook Minnesota Cousins, Thielen, Jefferson
10. Jonathan Taylor Indy TY Hilton, Pascal, Pittman

What have all of these rbs in common? Good qbs, some of the better olines and good receiving talent. Edit: with the exception of Philly.

Next example for a team with a young qb: Bills 2019 to 2020

Major changes from 2019 to 2020: addition of Stefon Diggs to Cole Beasley and John Brown

What else do they have in common? With the exception of Aaron Jones, they were all picked in the first two rounds of the draft. Those teams aren't converting day 3 picks or free agent retreads into prime NFL RBs, as is so commonly being suggested we do.

And is Baltimore known for its passing game? Lamar Jackson was 24th in attempts, 22nd in yards, 27th in completion %. That team is all running game, all the time.

Same for Baker Mayfield and Cleveland. He had the 30th completion %, 18th in yards, 17th in attempts. The one-two punch of elite backs there was not opened up by fear of him hitting them with a dagger deep. In fact, if Baker Mayfield didn't have RBs opening things up for him, they might already be calling for his job.

And let's address Tannehill - he was awful with a mediocre running game in Miami. To even consider him the reason for Henry's success and not the other way around is mind boggling. Tannehill executes play action as much as nearly anyone in the league - only barely edged out by the Bills and Rams.

I'm not going to go through each one by one. Fact of the matter is, yes, Henry took some time to get going, but he is now arguably the premiere back in the league, but they invested high in him.

Of course an overall effective offense and a good RB are going to generally be a part of a good offense, but you're not winning any points for your argument when all of these guys besides Dobbins are basically far and beyond the primary rushers for their teams. You can't even really make an argument for RoJo and Fournette if you look at the numbers.

 

[BullheadCardFan]

I can't believe Maurice Hurst went unclaimed on waivers

 

[Stout]

In all this chat about running back nobody has mentioned we have a QB quite capable of 1000 yards.

Awesome! Whether it's what you say, what Cheesy says, or somewhere in between, it's clear Kyler can contribute to the running game. Doesn't make me like our RBs any better, because he's not a running back. Kyler contributes to the running GAME, yes, but doesn't make our RUNNING BACK talent any better.

 

[oaken1]

Derrick Henry got better because Eddie George explained to him he was about to lose his job.... so he started running harder.... that’s straight from the horses mouth.... google it.


If Kyler rushes for 1000 yards we are most likely a 7-10 team.... history shows that

keim can’t draft. He hit on one third round RB.... and he got lucky.... even admitted DJ wasn’t the guy he was targeting.... Ameer Abdullah was it?? Either way... the guy he wanted sucked and we were just fortunate DJ fell in our lap in a spot keim had already decided he wanted to pick a RB.... so we got one shot at getting a good RB out of this draft.... spend the draft capital and pick the guy everyone agrees is the best RB in the draft... that’s our only chance
Thinking keim is gonna pick a guy in the fifth round that actually belongs on an nfl roster is just foolishness
Our CB options at 16 are gonna be “ one year experience at the position “ Vs “ already shown to be injury prone “
Since the first pick is gonna be the only guy to stick and contribute we might as well get the offensive guy.... that’s supposed to be this teams identity right?? Offensive powerhouse?? Best WR in the league? Most dynamic playmaker in a generation at qb? Strong online? top it off with a dynamic RB so the offense can hit on all cylinders.... running the ball eats clock and closes out games.... we’ve already seen kliff try to do it and fail... get him the tools to succeed

 

[BullheadCardFan]

Kyler contributes to the running GAME, yes, but doesn't make our RUNNING BACK talent any better.

This