Why Suns fans should be rooting for the Spurs

[justAndy]

I am an idiot for saying that there is no conspiracy for my team losing to another team, yet you are a genius for saying that the Spurs "squeaked" passed the Suns year after with the help of referees, despite:
2002-03: Lost to the Spurs in the 1st round in 6 games. Winning the two games by 1 (in OT) and 2 points, while losing the 4 games by 8, 13, 12 and 2 points.

04-05: Lost to the Spurs in WCF in 5 games. Winning the 1 game by 5 points, while losing the other 4 games by 7, 3, 10 and 6 points.

Losing to the Spurs in the 2nd round in 6 games. Winning two games by 20 and 6 points, while losing in the 4 games by 5, 7, 3, and 8 points.

Losing to the Spurs in the 1st round in 5 games. Winning one game by 19 points (when already down 0-3), wihle losing the other 4 by 2 points (2OT), 6, 16 and 5 points.

So other than last year, none of the series could be classified as particularly close, and the only controversy that ever happened was enforcing a rule that has been enforced for more than a decade.

So what specifically have the league done to help the Spurs in these 4 series? Care to elaborate?

And given that you obviously felt that the league is fixed, why would you even be so emotionally attached to this? Especially when you are such a smart person who can judge other's intelligence through the internet?

The only defeat to the Spurs that i consider tainted was last year - smug Stern with his "the rules arre the rules" regarding Boris and Amare - but not Timmy - coming off the bench onto the court, then his "we need to look at the rule" regarding the crooked ref and his coworkers frequenting casinos.
I don't question your intelligence - just your social acumen - why the HELL do you, Spurs fan, have so many posts on a Suns board????

 

[nashman]

Its ok to question his intelligence as well.

 

[justAndy]

Nashman - ease up!
I find his detailed analysis of game statistics amusing - it points to a Supernerd who has WAy too much time on his/her hands.

 

[D-Dogg]

maybe if I were a laker fan I'd have some sort of magic power like that.

It comes with winning championships.

 

[Phade]

Nashman - ease up!
I find his detailed analysis of game statistics amusing - it points to a Supernerd who has WAy too much time on his/her hands.

just pissed my pants

 

[Lorenzo]

It comes with winning championships.

I understand that.....and those championships bring thick rose colored glasses. my favorite football team wins a lot of them too. but just because they have a good regular season or have some talent I don't magically expect that they will surely beat other teams in the playoffs. easily at that. but who knows we'll see. I don't think that the lakers are even home-free with the jazz by any stretch. the lakers aren't even much ahead of utah or NO with their experience. so far that experience isn't hurting the hornets at least.... them against dallas or SA and those teams have much more playoff experience than the lakers current roster does.

 

[D-Dogg]

I understand that.....and those championships bring thick rose colored glasses. my favorite football team wins a lot of them too. but just because they have a good regular season or have some talent I don't magically expect that they will surely beat other teams in the playoffs. easily at that. but who knows we'll see. I don't think that the lakers are even home-free with the jazz by any stretch. the lakers aren't even much ahead of utah or NO with their experience. so far that experience isn't the hornets at least.... them against dallas or SA and those teams have much more than the lakers do.

We were talking about teams of the decade, not about current matchups.

Also with the NBA titles comes clear minds and reading comprehension.

 

[Lorenzo]

We were talking about teams of the decade, not about current matchups.

Also with the NBA titles comes clear minds and reading comprehension.

exactly...spurs are the team of the decade. and the hornets, a team that lacks experience and will be their downfall according to your posts, is handling the current team of the decade. the nba's most playoff primed team at that. i thought you'd understand where I was going with that.

 

[D-Dogg]

exactly...spurs are the team of the decade. and the hornets, a team that lacks experience and will be their downfall according to your posts, is handling the current team of the decade. the nba's most playoff primed team at that. i thought you'd understand where I was going with that.

Excuse me, I've never said anything about the Hornets lack of experience. I don't put a lot of stock in that.

I have said things about the matchups, and how the Lakers do a great job on West. And that I think the series would go 6 or 7 between them, with the Lakers winning, and that if the Nooch had the home court, I'd think differently.

Perhaps you are confusing me with someone else.

I didn't have any fear of Denver or the Jazz though...and I was glad to have Dallas, Nooch, Suns and Spurs sitting in the same side of the bracket because those are the most dangerous teams matchup wise for the Lakers, with the Nooch the most favorable of all of them. I thought the Suns would beat the Spurs though, and lose to New Orleans.

My most hopeful path to the finals for the Lakers, based STRICTLY on matchups, was Denver> Utah> Hornets. Looks to be breaking that way...doesn't mean the Lakers will advance but it is the most "winnable" path.

 

[Lorenzo]

Excuse me, I've never said anything about the Hornets lack of experience. I don't put a lot of stock in that.

I have said things about the matchups, and how the Lakers do a great job on West. And that I think the series would go 6 or 7 between them, with the Lakers winning, and that if the Nooch had the home court, I'd think differently.

Perhaps you are confusing me with someone else.

I didn't have any fear of Denver or the Jazz though...and I was glad to have Dallas, Nooch, Suns and Spurs sitting in the same side of the bracket because those are the most dangerous teams matchup wise for the Lakers, with the Nooch the most favorable of all of them. I thought the Suns would beat the Spurs though, and lose to New Orleans.

My most hopeful path to the finals for the Lakers, based STRICTLY on matchups, was Denver> Utah> Hornets. Looks to be breaking that way...doesn't mean the Lakers will advance but it is the most "winnable" path.

In fact this is indeed what you said. I don't know what else to take from it:

Hey, LorenzoNO, the regular season does show us some things, and one thing it does show is that if you shut down the backdoor alley on NO you take away a lot of their offense. If you make Paul a scorer and not a facilitator you also hurt that team.

Will the Lakers beat them? Likely. Lakers beat the Spurs? Tossup with the Spurs having the playoff advantage.

Even the bench guys of the Lakers have more playoff experience than the Nooch though, so don't go with just Kobe and Fish having the goods there. You have to lose in the playoffs to win in the playoffs; I'm a firm believer in that. The Lakers (Kobe, Fish, Sasha, Luke, Farmar, Lamar, Pau, Vlade, Turiaf) have experience in the playoffs on the losing end...that drives them now. Plus add in Phil. While I LOVE Byron, he's not nearly the coach Phil is.

Lakers have advantages all over that matchup. I'm hoping they can pull off the upset against the Spurs, and yes, it would be an upset.

 

[Lorenzo]

In fact this is indeed what you said. I don't know what else to take from it:

Hey, LorenzoNO, the regular season does show us some things, and one thing it does show is that if you shut down the backdoor alley on NO you take away a lot of their offense. If you make Paul a scorer and not a facilitator you also hurt that team.

Will the Lakers beat them? Likely. Lakers beat the Spurs? Tossup with the Spurs having the playoff advantage.

Even the bench guys of the Lakers have more playoff experience than the Nooch though, so don't go with just Kobe and Fish having the goods there. You have to lose in the playoffs to win in the playoffs; I'm a firm believer in that. The Lakers (Kobe, Fish, Sasha, Luke, Farmar, Lamar, Pau, Vlade, Turiaf) have experience in the playoffs on the losing end...that drives them now. Plus add in Phil. While I LOVE Byron, he's not nearly the coach Phil is.

Lakers have advantages all over that matchup. I'm hoping they can pull off the upset against the Spurs, and yes, it would be an upset.

before that you said this that's were the experience talk came in:

Oh, you know what. They can't beat the Lakers. In fact, I pray they beat the Spurs because the Lakers will stomp them in the WCF if they can get past the Jazz.

The Hornets can't win a title this season, and you know it. No shot.

If they add a couple of good depth guys in the offseason, they can make a good run next year, but the West is getting tougher nex year in ways the Hornets can't deal with (Oden, Bynum). Remember, the Lakers with Bynum BLEW OUT the NOOCH on their home court, and barely beat the non-bynum, non-pau lakers at home. And lost to them the other times. They just can't deal with true centers

 

[D-Dogg]

before that you said this that's were the experience talk came in:

Oh, you know what. They can't beat the Lakers. In fact, I pray they beat the Spurs because the Lakers will stomp them in the WCF if they can get past the Jazz.

The Hornets can't win a title this season, and you know it. No shot.

If they add a couple of good depth guys in the offseason, they can make a good run next year, but the West is getting tougher nex year in ways the Hornets can't deal with (Oden, Bynum). Remember, the Lakers with Bynum BLEW OUT the NOOCH on their home court, and barely beat the non-bynum, non-pau lakers at home. And lost to them the other times. They just can't deal with true centers

That's depth, not experience. HUGE difference. I do think a big problem with the Hornets is their lack of depth. I'd love to get into that bench, ringing up fouls on Chandler and West.

And yes, I was being a bit exuberant otherwise with the stomping comments...but I also think the Spurs would have a good shot at stomping the Lakers. At any rate, the Nooch are good. But they aren't beating the Celtics. The Lakers probably aren't either, but they have a better shot than the Nooch. I stand by that New Orleans can't win a title this season (though if they play the C's I'm all over that bandwagon).


Regarding playoff experience being an issue...someone else brought it up as a point of comparison, so I made the argument about it since the Lakers have a lot of it...not because I think it is some particular point that must be talked about...others did, and made an incorrect statement about the experience of the Lakers.

But yeah, I do think you have to lose in the playoffs to win in the playoffs (and by that I mean winning a title, not just winning some series)...I do. That doesn't make you any less dangerous. But rarely does a team with no experience win it all. Especially when you get to the finals. Often, it is the loss in the WCF or so that makes teams hungry. Note my comments there are more directed at the hunger and drive you get by losing rather than "playoff experience."

Does experience matter? Yeah, but not that much in an individual series. But going all the way, with the pressure of the finals? Yeah, it comes into play.

 

[Lorenzo]

That's depth, not experience. HUGE difference. I do think a big problem with the Hornets is their lack of depth. I'd love to get into that bench, ringing up fouls on Chandler and West.

And yes, I was being a bit exuberant otherwise with the stomping comments...but I also think the Spurs would have a good shot at stomping the Lakers. At any rate, the Nooch are good. But they aren't beating the Celtics. The Lakers probably aren't either, but they have a better shot than the Nooch. I stand by that New Orleans can't win a title this season (though if they play the C's I'm all over that bandwagon).


Regarding playoff experience being an issue...someone else brought it up as a point of comparison, so I made the argument about it since the Lakers have a lot of it...not because I think it is some particular point that must be talked about...others did, and made an incorrect statement about the experience of the Lakers.

But yeah, I do think you have to lose in the playoffs to win in the playoffs (and by that I mean winning a title, not just winning some series)...I do. That doesn't make you any less dangerous. But rarely does a team with no experience win it all. Especially when you get to the finals. Often, it is the loss in the WCF or so that makes teams hungry. Note my comments there are more directed at the hunger and drive you get by losing rather than "playoff experience."

Does experience matter? Yeah, but not that much in an individual series. But going all the way, with the pressure of the finals? Yeah, it comes into play.

above you said you've never said anything about their lack of experience.

now you say basically the same thing as before or that they have to have it to win it all or they need to lose in the WCF to drive them next year. my arguement is the same as before. they don't have to lose to no one. the lakers roster isn't exactly loaded with great battle tested playoff experience. these N.O. players have proven they know how to win and win in the playoffs against more experienced players than themselves. I don't think that will come to play so much against the celtics or the lakers....because neither of those teams have been beyond the first round in recent years anyway. the celtics do have some vetran players like posey...the lakers have fishcer and kobe(as far as players with titles). you would think lack of experience for the hornets would play out more against a team like the spurs. we'll see that series isn't over yet. If the spurs defend their home court it will change a lot of things.

but as far as the lakers you don't even know how those guys other than kobe and maybe fischer will react to being in the WCF or NBA finals either. and the celtics the same. KG, pierce, allen, don't exactly have a long list of playoff success. In fact they have failed so often in the playoffs that you really don't know how they would react to the unfamiliar attention and pressure of a CF series or an NBA finals series. a team that's getting lost in the mix is Detroit. they have been there done that. If they can avoid lebron james....they might just win another ring.

 

[D-Dogg]

above you said you've never said anything about their lack of experience.

now you say basically the same thing as before or that they have to have it to win it all or they need to lose in the WCF to drive them next year. my arguement is the same as before. they don't have to lose to no one. the lakers roster isn't exactly loaded with great battle tested playoff experience. these N.O. players have proven they know how to win and win in the playoffs against more experienced players than themselves. I don't think that will come to play so much against the celtics or the lakers....because neither of those teams have been beyond the first round in recent years anyway. the celtics do have some vetran players like posey...the lakers have fishcer and kobe(as far as players with titles). you would think lack of experience for the hornets would play out more against a team like the spurs. we'll see that series isn't over yet. If the spurs defend their home court it will change a lot of things.

but as far as the lakers you don't even know how those guys other than kobe and maybe fischer will react to being in the WCF or NBA finals either. and the celtics the same. KG, pierce, allen, don't exactly have a long list of playoff success. In fact they have failed so often in the playoffs that you really don't know how they would react to the unfamiliar attention and pressure of a CF series or an NBA finals series. a team that's getting lost in the mix is Detroit. they have been there done that. If they can avoid lebron james....they might just win another ring.

Luke also played in the Finals.

Overall though, their playoff experience isn't what is going to dictate the games between them, if they meet. The matchups will. The Lakers neuter West, and Pau still scores offensively. Shut down the back door, and make the games a test of Kobe vs. Paul. I'll take my chances with Kobe there...and no, not because of his experience.


And I still never called out their lack of experience...you did, and said the Lakers also have youth and inexperience. To which I layed out the players that actually have got experience. "Experience" wasn't my argument...it was yours. I put little stock in it, really, other than the experience of losing and how that can make you come back harder (or break you, which also happens..see Kings, Sacramento).

 

[Lorenzo]

Luke also played in the Finals.

Overall though, their playoff experience isn't what is going to dictate the games between them, if they meet. The matchups will. The Lakers neuter West, and Pau still scores offensively. Shut down the back door, and make the games a test of Kobe vs. Paul. I'll take my chances with Kobe there...and no, not because of his experience.


And I still never called out their lack of experience...you did, and said the Lakers also have youth and inexperience. To which I layed out the players that actually have got experience. "Experience" wasn't my argument...it was yours. I put little stock in it, really, other than the experience of losing and how that can make you come back harder (or break you, which also happens..see Kings, Sacramento).

but that's not clear. I said that the hornets don't need the experience because they aren't going up against a team that just has so much more of it(when talking about the lakers). you came back with they have to have the experience of losing, but now claim that you never put any stock in experience and it's all about matchups. which I agree with that notion....in reality it is all about matchups not experience. I also think you are selling the hornets short based on a couple of regular season games. west will give the lakers problems....especially over a series of consecutive games. so will chandler. so will peja..pargo...and many others on the deep bench of the hornets. both teams really compare well as a whole IMO. bynum is irrelevant now unless that second opinion thing works out, but I don't think he needs to come back anyway.

then I go back to the jazz. neither one of these second round series are over anyway. the jazz played well last year and fell to the heavily experience spurs in the WCF. so this is a team that is battle tested and has the bad taste in their mouth as well. then you have the spurs that, if they defend home court, will be right back in it just when everyone else counted them out yet again.....

 

[D-Dogg]

but that's not clear. I said that the hornets don't need the experience because they aren't going up against a team that just has so much more of it(when talking about the lakers). you came back with they have to have the experience of losing, but now claim that you never put any stock in experience and it's all about matchups. which I agree with that notion....in reality it is all about matchups not experience. I also think you are selling the hornets short based on a couple of regular season games. west will give the lakers problems....especially over a series of consecutive games. so will chandler. so will peja..pargo...and many others on the deep bench of the hornets. both teams really compare well as a whole IMO. bynum is irrelevant now unless that second opinion thing works out, but I don't think he needs to come back anyway.

then I go back to the jazz. neither one of these second round series are over anyway. the jazz played well last year and fell to the heavily experience spurs in the WCF. so this is a team that is battle tested and has the bad taste in their mouth as well. then you have the spurs that, if they defend home court, will be right back in it just when everyone else counted them out yet again.....

No, nobody is in the WCF yet...this is all hypothetical.

Experience ONLY came up because you brought it up...it wasn't something I'd bring up. Once that Pandora's Box was opened, I put my foot in my mouth and mentioned that I agree with the "lose before you win" concept.

Bynum won't be back.

West won't give us problems. We held him under his average in 4 games, WELL under in 3 of those. He just doesn't do well against the length of Lamar. And Philip is one of the best adjustment coaches in all of basketball, so he'll keep throwing things at CP3 until something sticks. Chandler is the main recipient of the back door lob offense I already said was a priority to shut down. Pargo is Pargo...defend him for the shot, and not the pass...plus, the Lakers know him as he used to play there. He's still a dangerous cat.

As I mentioned, the real deciding factor in the series is Peja...he's basically the only thing about that team that really worries me, given that you just have to throw your hands up at CP3 because he's going to get his.

 

[Lorenzo]

No, nobody is in the WCF yet...this is all hypothetical.

Experience ONLY came up because you brought it up...it wasn't something I'd bring up. Once that Pandora's Box was opened, I put my foot in my mouth and mentioned that I agree with the "lose before you win" concept.

Bynum won't be back.

West won't give us problems. We held him under his average in 4 games, WELL under in 3 of those. He just doesn't do well against the length of Lamar. And Philip is one of the best adjustment coaches in all of basketball, so he'll keep throwing things at CP3 until something sticks. Chandler is the main recipient of the back door lob offense I already said was a priority to shut down. Pargo is Pargo...defend him for the shot, and not the pass...plus, the Lakers know him as he used to play there. He's still a dangerous cat.

As I mentioned, the real deciding factor in the series is Peja...he's basically the only thing about that team that really worries me, given that you just have to throw your hands up at CP3 because he's going to get his.

very true...I don't know about odom defending west. I didn't see those games and I really think west can play against odom in the playoffs. maybe they will give each other problems I don't know. Odom just isn't a guy that has never worried about anything other than he can rebound really well. Peja is very dangerous because he is being utilized to his strength. he is a third or fourth option....being that he is only being used for a mismatch down low or to shoot a wide open three. It's not that teams aren't aware of his shot....it's that you focus so much on paul west and chandler down low on the put back or flush....and you lose site of the best three point shooter in the game. then throw pargo in there who suddenly is sinking shots regardless if a guy rotates to him or not. that's the sign of a good shooter...a guy that will throw up a contested shot with no problem.

but I just bring up the experience because that's really the only way you can knock the hornets. and I'm just not buying it yet....as far as experience. we'll see. I don't even think you can knock their depth. their depth has played excellent and has only done even better in the playoffs.

 

[D-Dogg]

We'll see. (I hope...it would be a fun series).

I'd much rather lose to the Nooch than to the Spurs, I can tell you that right now.

 

[Lorenzo]

We'll see. (I hope...it would be a fun series).

I'd much rather lose to the Nooch than to the Spurs, I can tell you that right now.

I'd much rather see N.O. rather than S.A. play the lakers or jazz ....I really don't care who wins that series because I think it will make for a great WCF match. the best team will provide the best matchup IMO.

 

[Darth Llama]

We'll see. (I hope...it would be a fun series).

I'd much rather lose to the Nooch than to the Spurs, I can tell you that right now.

I totally agree. If it's Lakers/Hornets in the WCF, I'm rooting for the winner no doubt. I like the Hornets a lot, I can live with them as West Champion.

I honestly don't think they'll get past LA though. The team with the best chance to beat the Lakers are the Celtics. Of course, LA has to get by the Jazz first, and that is NOT going to be easy.

 

[ambchang_]

The only defeat to the Spurs that i consider tainted was last year - smug Stern with his "the rules arre the rules" regarding Boris and Amare - but not Timmy - coming off the bench onto the court, then his "we need to look at the rule" regarding the crooked ref and his coworkers frequenting casinos.
I don't question your intelligence - just your social acumen - why the HELL do you, Spurs fan, have so many posts on a Suns board????

I agree that rules SHOULD be enforced. The onus is not on the Spurs when it was Suns players who couldn't understand and follow the rule.

The Duncan situation is different on two fronts. The history of the rule is that it was developed to avoid a Rudy Tomjonavich/Kermit Washington moment again. The Horry Bell altercation presents a danger in which this situation could occur, while the Duncan situation, where there wasn't even any altercation, does not.

#2, the rule was changed to vincinity of the bench area because of the suspension Ewing got when his toes stepped over the line. The rule change was done specifically to avoid this situation, and Duncan and Bowen (I think it was) barely stepped over the line.

The referee situation is different in that it was part of the employment agreement between the referees and the league. If I understand correctly, the referees would be fired from their jobs, and as long as both sides agree to changes in the rule, there is no problem.

I have more problem with Kevin Garnett not getting suspended for shoving a referee this year in Game 4 of the 1st round. That is a suspension 10 out of 10 times, but the league bent the rule.

As for my social acumen, I can't help it that I can manage my time so much better, and I do enjoy posting on this site. Perhaps it takes you hours upon hours to come up with any basketball insights, but it takes me but a few seconds. I sometimes wonder how a man like Warren Buffet can manage so many different things at the same time too, he has 24 hours just like I do, but I will readily admit that he is just better than me, instead of questioning his social acumen and calling him an idiot.

EDIT:

BTW, if you think that only last year was "tainted", then why did you say:
"Your an idiot, being blown out by a team is much different than squeaking by the Suns with the Refs help year after year!"

earlier on?

I also found it amusing that having subjective analysis with data to back up is casted in a negative light by some on here, oh wait, I am talking to people who have trouble controlling their bladders.

 

[justAndy]

I never called you an idiot - only a Supernerd.

 

[ambchang_]

I never called you an idiot - only a Supernerd.

My fault.

 

[nowagimp]

Gooooo Spurs goooooo! Gooooo Fishing with kenny and charles!

 

[Covert Rain]

The only defeat to the Spurs that i consider tainted was last year - smug Stern with his "the rules arre the rules" regarding Boris and Amare - but not Timmy - coming off the bench onto the court, then his "we need to look at the rule" regarding the crooked ref and his coworkers frequenting casinos.
I don't question your intelligence - just your social acumen - why the HELL do you, Spurs fan, have so many posts on a Suns board????

Many Spurs fan ignore the fact that when the Rules committee worded the rule they did so that there could be a judgment call made in certain situations and so that it wasn't so black and white. The fact that Stern chose not to use judgment then tried to say the rule was black and white is what pissed people off.

Dan Patrick had an interview with a couple of GM's on the rules committee and they also agree that it was left open for judgment calls and that if Stern chose not to use that judgment that wasn't in the spirit of the rule. So Stern can't use judgment in a crucial playoff situation yet chooses to find his "judgment" when it came to his own Refs breaking the rules.

At the very least when meeting with your rules committee you should be on the same page before enacting a rule. The fact that members of his own rules committee disagreed with Stern made him look like even a bigger ass.