Why Plummer will succeed in Denver where Arizona failed him...

[AZCB34]

Taco John

We don't need to come over to your board because we are exhausted by the Jake discussions. We have been having them forever it seems. The Broncos will either get the Jake we expect them to get or the Broncos have the best coaches in the universe. Until the season starts...does it really matter what we think?

Oh, and there is little need to try and lure us to your board. It will be more of the same as you have brought. Bronco fans who have never bothered studying the Cards unless you played us and now you act like you guys know everything about us. Sorry. Doesn't work that way. If you watch EVERY game Jake played in and are making the same statements you are making now...fine. But clearly you have made your choices based on a very small amount of imformation.

Trust me. Alot of us are going to watch the Denver happenings this year with great interest but the arguments are old.

 

[JeffGollin]

Obviously things must be slow in Denver if you've got to go around the internet to all the other teams' boards.
I took a look at the thread title and immediately jumped to the last comment posted.

Judging from the above comment it was just as I thought - some pathetic Denver fan with nothing better to do than troll rival NFL boards.

Jake's all yours. Either he'll do good or he'll suck.

Blake's all ours. Either he'll do good or he'll suck.

Suggest you get a life and let the season come to you. Then we'll see.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Man - we are you guys still arguing with this guy - Do I need to go back to the darkside and put up a Rod Graves thread to rip you guys away from this mind-numbing read - he will see what happens once the season starts - admittedly the guy only has tapes of Seattle the Rams and the other Seattle game - one game where Jake had a great performance from Thomas Jones and still had a horrendous game, The second Seattle game where Jake and ur pathetic defense put us down 27-6 before he decided to play and I'm not sure which Rams game it was but if it was the ESPN game, well then he got one of three good games. If he's basing his argument on those games then he's not just an unkowledgable fan, he just down right stupid.

So much for making my point about not continuing to argue this anymore.

 

[Wild Card]

Originally posted by Taco John
No. That's pretty much all that I've got on the subject...

What you guys aren't realizing is that this question has context for this discussion and ones that I've had in the past regarding Griese... I think both quarterbacks suffered from the lack of decent offensive line protection, and that both require that protection in order to be effective.

A perfect example is Trent Green, who I would rate equally with Jake and Brian... The guy can't make a downfield read to save his life under pressure, but given rock solid blind side protection he is able to take his time and look downfield to find the open guy... Often he won't have the confidence to make the throw to the open guy, so he'll dump it off to Priest underneath. The point is, it works for him. Once they gave him protection, he started to manage the offense better, and ran the highest scoring offense in the league.

Brian was one of the highest rated passers last year, with a record of 7-3, until we lost our left guard. We then had to do a shuffle on our offensive line that sent us on a skid that we weren't able to recover from... Like many of you, our fans blamed the quarterback for not being able to make it all happen on his own... He is, afterall, being paid a lot of money (as if money is a factor on the field of play... maybe Jake was supposed to pay off the defensive linemen?)

Part of the problem with our high sack count, however, falls directly on Griese's inability to consistently step up into the pocket. Jake's mobility should pay dividends for us there...

I submit that if the Cards don't improve their offensive line, you are going to have the same problems with Blake that you had with Jake.

TJ:

Good post, and a pretty-decent read on Trent Green's rebirth in the KC offense. You're one of the few Broncos fans I've seen acknowledge the o-line's role in Brian Griese's recent problems in Denver. I'll be interested to see how Griese performs in Miami, once they make the inevitable switch from Jay Fiedler. (Fiedler will either struggle or get hurt by mid-season. Either way, Brian's behind center in November.)

A couple of observations on Plummer.

It was pretty well-documented--locally, at least--that he struggled with operating Marc Trestman's version of the WCO, that the Cards dumbed down that offense as a result, and that Trestman recommended making Plummer available in the expansion draft. I have a hard time envisioning Jake running the Broncos offense, one of the league's more-complex schemes.

Even in simpler schemes, like Rich Olsen's, it never seemed that the game slowed down for Jake. In his last year, he was still missing open receivers, getting surprised by defensive coverages, and making poor throw/ run decisions.

He's an easy guy to root for. Likeable, enthusiastic, competitive, unpretentious. He'll give you highlight-reel plays and improbable comebacks. He'll play hard for you and never quit.

I just don't know if Plummer's a legitimate NFL starter. After spending millions of dollars on him--and millions more on draftees, free agents and coaches to help him succeed--the Cards gave up. If he's really got the talent to start in this league, the Broncos are giving him what may be his last, best chance to prove it.

WC

 

[DCCardsFan]

Originally posted by Jersey Girl Cards Fan
Most supported him til the end. After 6 years and 5 losing seasons, it was time for something different.

This is the whole problem I have here. Only TWO YEARS AGO, there was a large majority of people who supported Plummer and thought he was a good player, who wasn't necessarily represented by his stats. The only people I can remember not liking Plummer were Russ Smith, Gizmo, CardFreak, and NEM. There may have been more, but they certainly weren't vocal.

Two years later, and nearly EVERY PERSON ON THIS BOARD bags on him constantly, with nearly every single bad quality a QB could have (other than being a bad guy) being alleged. He's stupid, he has terrible awareness, he makes bad decisions, he has a weak arm, his arm is inaccurate, etc. Pretty much everything is covered.

Weak, inaccurate arm? Folks, weak inaccurate arms aren't second round draft picks. You've got to at least have A) a strong arm, or B) an accurate arm to get drafted AT ALL, much less be a second round draft pick.

And then there's the blatant untruths about other teams bringing safeties up into the box to stop the run. My challenge remains - give me one play from any year besides last year, where other teams inched safeties up into the box to run-stop. You can tell that the safeties are concerned about the run, if they're not flying through the line to get at the QB. PLEASE PROVE ME WRONG. Until then, quit claiming something that didn't happen!

Just because you repeat something enough doesn't make it true.

All those who changed their minds about Plummer: Did Plummer all of the sudden get worse? Were you DEAD WRONG BEFORE, despite having seen 4 years of him at QB? Are you just wishy-washy people in general? Did you only like Plummer because you're a homer? Why exactly did you change your minds? It looks a lot like sour grapes to ME. It looks alot like the sour grapes that has been shown to nearly every single other player who has left Arizona, for whatever reason.

 

[SECTION 11]

Fredo, Pop wants to talk to ya. Something about a toll booth.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by DCCardsFan
This is the whole problem I have here. Only TWO YEARS AGO, there was a large majority of people who supported Plummer and thought he was a good player, who wasn't necessarily represented by his stats. The only people I can remember not liking Plummer were Russ Smith, Gizmo, CardFreak, and NEM. There may have been more, but they certainly weren't vocal.

Two years later, and nearly EVERY PERSON ON THIS BOARD bags on him constantly, with nearly every single bad quality a QB could have (other than being a bad guy) being alleged. He's stupid, he has terrible awareness, he makes bad decisions, he has a weak arm, his arm is inaccurate, etc. Pretty much everything is covered.

Weak, inaccurate arm? Folks, weak inaccurate arms aren't second round draft picks. You've got to at least have A) a strong arm, or B) an accurate arm to get drafted AT ALL, much less be a second round draft pick.

And then there's the blatant untruths about other teams bringing safeties up into the box to stop the run. My challenge remains - give me one play from any year besides last year, where other teams inched safeties up into the box to run-stop. You can tell that the safeties are concerned about the run, if they're not flying through the line to get at the QB. PLEASE PROVE ME WRONG. Until then, quit claiming something that didn't happen!

Just because you repeat something enough doesn't make it true.

All those who changed their minds about Plummer: Did Plummer all of the sudden get worse? Were you DEAD WRONG BEFORE, despite having seen 4 years of him at QB? Are you just wishy-washy people in general? Did you only like Plummer because you're a homer? Why exactly did you change your minds? It looks a lot like sour grapes to ME. It looks alot like the sour grapes that has been shown to nearly every single other player who has left Arizona, for whatever reason.

(Crickets chirping in the background)

 

[AZCB34]

Originally posted by DCCardsFan
This is the whole problem I have here. Only TWO YEARS AGO, there was a large majority of people who supported Plummer and thought he was a good player, who wasn't necessarily represented by his stats. The only people I can remember not liking Plummer were Russ Smith, Gizmo, CardFreak, and NEM. There may have been more, but they certainly weren't vocal.

Two years later, and nearly EVERY PERSON ON THIS BOARD bags on him constantly, with nearly every single bad quality a QB could have (other than being a bad guy) being alleged. He's stupid, he has terrible awareness, he makes bad decisions, he has a weak arm, his arm is inaccurate, etc. Pretty much everything is covered.

Weak, inaccurate arm? Folks, weak inaccurate arms aren't second round draft picks. You've got to at least have A) a strong arm, or B) an accurate arm to get drafted AT ALL, much less be a second round draft pick.

And then there's the blatant untruths about other teams bringing safeties up into the box to stop the run. My challenge remains - give me one play from any year besides last year, where other teams inched safeties up into the box to run-stop. You can tell that the safeties are concerned about the run, if they're not flying through the line to get at the QB. PLEASE PROVE ME WRONG. Until then, quit claiming something that didn't happen!

Just because you repeat something enough doesn't make it true.

All those who changed their minds about Plummer: Did Plummer all of the sudden get worse? Were you DEAD WRONG BEFORE, despite having seen 4 years of him at QB? Are you just wishy-washy people in general? Did you only like Plummer because you're a homer? Why exactly did you change your minds? It looks a lot like sour grapes to ME. It looks alot like the sour grapes that has been shown to nearly every single other player who has left Arizona, for whatever reason.

I am not even sure I want to answer you but I will. I always wanted Jake to do better. I never thought he was great and in alot of cases I didn't think he was very good either. What I always wanted was improvement. Last year was the straw that broke the camel's back. The improvement never happened IMO. So I said enough. Change is good sometimes simply for the sake of change. Maybe Jake will be better in Denver. Do you really care?

He doesn't have a strong arm...he has a very average arm. And that is my opinion.

So there you go. Not sour grapes...not worthless homerism. I never even changed my mind. I just never saw him get better...EVER.

EDIT: And we know you love Jake. That much is clear. As far as I am concerned, like I tried to tell Taco John, the Jake conversation is done until the season starts.

 

[Russ Smith]

Originally posted by Taco John
Part of the problem with our high sack count, however, falls directly on Griese's inability to consistently step up into the pocket. Jake's mobility should pay dividends for us there...

I submit that if the Cards don't improve their offensive line, you are going to have the same problems with Blake that you had with Jake.

Don't get it. if Jake's mobility is so important then why did the OL here cause him so many INT's?

Can't have it both ways, if the bad OL was the problem, and the Broncos OL is bad then Jake will have the same problems now.

 

[Taco John]

Originally posted by Russ Smith
Don't get it. if Jake's mobility is so important then why did the OL here cause him so many INT's?

Can't have it both ways, if the bad OL was the problem, and the Broncos OL is bad then Jake will have the same problems now.

You've got to be kidding me...

If you want to answer this question, maybe you should go back to the arguments you were making in Jake's favor two years ago...

 

[SECTION 11]

Originally posted by Taco John
You've got to be kidding me...

If you want to answer this question, maybe you should go back to the arguments you were making in Jake's favor two years ago...

Two years ago it was 'potential' and 'maybe he'll cut down on his mistakes.'

 

[bratwurst]

Originally posted by DCCardsFan
All those who changed their minds about Plummer: Did Plummer all of the sudden get worse? Were you DEAD WRONG BEFORE, despite having seen 4 years of him at QB? Are you just wishy-washy people in general? Did you only like Plummer because you're a homer? Why exactly did you change your minds? It looks a lot like sour grapes to ME. It looks alot like the sour grapes that has been shown to nearly every single other player who has left Arizona, for whatever reason.

All I can say is that for the past 4 years, every single time Jake dropped back to pass, I got a lump in my throat. Every single time.

Picture it - Makovicka doesn't go in motion to telegraph to the defense if the run is coming. Then Jake takes the snap, begins his drop. At this moment for the past 4 years I would almost get sick to my stomach until the ball either fell incomplete or a Cardinal caught it. Its almost like watching Jake has traumatized me with fear of the forward pass.

I wanted Jake to do well - I liked the guy and hoped that he could take the Cardinals somewhere. 98 was a great year and I hoped Jake could bring back that magic at some point. But the fact of the matter is, he wore out his welcome. Starting two years ago I just couldn't take the constant and same mistakes anymore. The welcome mat didn't just wear out, it disintegrated. We as fans gave him more then enough tries.

I just hope it doesn't take long to make a full recovery of forwardpassophobia with Blake at the helm now.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by bratwurst
All I can say is that for the past 4 years, every single time Jake dropped back to pass, I got a lump in my throat. Every single time.

EXACTLY! EXACTLY! EXACTLY! EXACTLY! EXACTLY! EXACTLY!

 

[DCCardsFan]

Originally posted by AZCB34
I am not even sure I want to answer you but I will. I always wanted Jake to do better. I never thought he was great and in alot of cases I didn't think he was very good either. What I always wanted was improvement. Last year was the straw that broke the camel's back. The improvement never happened IMO. So I said enough. Change is good sometimes simply for the sake of change. Maybe Jake will be better in Denver. Do you really care?

He doesn't have a strong arm...he has a very average arm. And that is my opinion.

So there you go. Not sour grapes...not worthless homerism. I never even changed my mind. I just never saw him get better...EVER.

EDIT: And we know you love Jake. That much is clear. As far as I am concerned, like I tried to tell Taco John, the Jake conversation is done until the season starts.

Love is a strong word. I only love truth. And when I believe I'm right, I fight for it. When someone tells untruths about even someone I don't particularly like, I will argue it. I only want to be fair.

Do you think he has an inaccurate arm? Because when that comment gets thrown out there, no one disagrees.

And I agree with you that Jake needed to be gone, because CHANGE IS GOOD sometimes merely for the sake of change. But that doesn't mean we need to revise history in order to make Jake look as bad as possible. That's whats happening here......to the only QB to take us to a playoff victory in the last 54 years (Oh, I forgot, we went IN SPITE OF jake).

 

[Russ Smith]

Originally posted by Taco John
You've got to be kidding me...

If you want to answer this question, maybe you should go back to the arguments you were making in Jake's favor two years ago...

You're confusing me with some other Russ. In 1997 I was quite excited about Jake. IN 1998 I blamed him for us NOT wining the NFC east, but I cut him slack he was still young. Since 1999 when he refused to admit he was hurt and kept going out there and losing games, I have been a "jake hater", DC will agree with me on that point. You expect a young player to have a learning curve, it became obvious to me by '99 that Jake's curve was really different, that he was still making the same mistakes he made 2 years ago, and that the club was WAY over committed to him financially and otherwise.


i don't make excuses for Jake.

You said his mobility will avoid in Denver what Griese could not. You said his inconsistent OL in ARizona made him play poorly. So again, if his mobility didn't help him in Arizona, why will it help him in Denver? there's a huge hole in your logic.

As for why we're here and not on Orangemane, I can only follow so many boards, I happen to prefer the Freak board because it has less nonsense on it.

 

[bratwurst]

Originally posted by DCCardsFan

Do you think he has an inaccurate arm? Because when that comment gets thrown out there, no one disagrees.

Its pretty accurate to the Linebackers and Safeties that he never actually sees, but seems to stare and aim at very effectively.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by DCCardsFan
Love is a strong word. I only love truth. And when I believe I'm right, I fight for it. When someone tells untruths about even someone I don't particularly like, I will argue it. I only want to be fair.

Do you think he has an inaccurate arm? Because when that comment gets thrown out there, no one disagrees.

So all of us here are liars? Not only are we worthless homers, but now we are liars because we don't agree with you?

 

[Ryanwb]

Originally posted by Taco John
You've got to be kidding me...

If you want to answer this question, maybe you should go back to the arguments you were making in Jake's favor two years ago...

He has always disliked Jake.....

 

[Ryanwb]

Originally posted by DCCardsFan
Love is a strong word. I only love truth. And when I believe I'm right, I fight for it. When someone tells untruths about even someone I don't particularly like, I will argue it. I only want to be fair.

Do you think he has an inaccurate arm? Because when that comment gets thrown out there, no one disagrees.

And I agree with you that Jake needed to be gone, because CHANGE IS GOOD sometimes merely for the sake of change. But that doesn't mean we need to revise history in order to make Jake look as bad as possible. That's whats happening here......to the only QB to take us to a playoff victory in the last 54 years (Oh, I forgot, we went IN SPITE OF jake).

Jake's numbers speak for themselves.....he sucks ass

 

[SECTION 11]

Originally posted by DCCardsFan
Do you think he has an inaccurate arm? Because when that comment gets thrown out there, no one disagrees.

Yes. He is not very accurate.

Most NFL QB's don't spin their RB around on screen passes.
Most NFL QB's hit receivers in stride across the middle.
Most NFL QB's hit receivers on out routes in the numbers, toward the sideline.

 

[DCCardsFan]

Originally posted by bratwurst
Its pretty accurate to the Linebackers and Safeties that he never actually sees, but seems to stare and aim at very effectively.

I have certainly questioned Jake's decisionmaking over the years, as I have questioned his deep ball. He makes some bonehead plays.

But the criticisms don't end there, brat. They go much farther, into the zone of lies. And that's when I step in to argue.

 

[SECTION 11]

Originally posted by SECTION 11
Yes. He is not very accurate.

Most NFL QB's don't spin their RB around on screen passes.
Most NFL QB's hit receivers in stride across the middle.
Most NFL QB's hit receivers on out routes in the numbers, toward the sideline.

Maybe you're version of accuracy is shown in March at the QB Challenge?

 

[bratwurst]

Originally posted by Ryanwb
Jake's numbers speak for themselves.....he sucks ass

Wow, that about sums it up.

 

[SECTION 11]

Originally posted by SECTION 11
Yes. He is not very accurate.

Most NFL QB's don't spin their RB around on screen passes.
Most NFL QB's hit receivers in stride across the middle.
Most NFL QB's hit receivers on out routes in the numbers, toward the sideline.

Argue with me, Fredo!
There's a zone of lies right there!

 

[Stronso]

For the love of God - can we drop this incredible waste of bandwith? Plummer is Denver's problem now - not ours.

I have moved on - can't we all just get along PEACE