Whisenhunt: Relationships in Question

Duckjake

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Before coming here, Warner had just been benched by two other organizations and was seemingly done. So can't it be argued that Whiz put Warner in a better position to succeed?

All coaches fail without a QB. Belichick? failed. Shanahan? failed.

Blame Whiz all you want for poor talent evaluation, because I think that's been proven. However, give the guy a good QB and he'll magically see success again.

There isn't a coach in the league who could be successful with Anderson, Hall, Bartel, Lindley, or Skelton. It's incredible we saw the kind of success we did with Skelton at the end of last year and Kolb at the beginning of this year.

Once again Warner was playing well before CKW arrived. The Cards just didn't win.

2005-2006:

350-543-4,090 yards 17 TD 14int, 64.5% completion rate. 7.5 yards per attempt and 11.7 yards per completion. What we wouldn't give for those numbers this season.

What so many missed was Warner's surprising ability to play well in spite of his age. He was 37 when he went to the SB.

If you want to look at why the Cards were so successful 2008-2009 just take a look at the roster and how many players were long time veterans with several years playing for Arizona.
 

Dayman

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Before coming here, Warner had just been benched by two other organizations and was seemingly done. So can't it be argued that Whiz put Warner in a better position to succeed?

All coaches fail without a QB. Belichick? failed. Shanahan? failed.

Blame Whiz all you want for poor talent evaluation, because I think that's been proven. However, give the guy a good QB and he'll magically see success again.

There isn't a coach in the league who could be successful with Anderson, Hall, Bartel, Lindley, or Skelton. It's incredible we saw the kind of success we did with Skelton at the end of last year and Kolb at the beginning of this year.

It's not even about success anymore. It's about looking remotely competent as an offense, which this team has failed to do for months.

We haven't seen a Cardinal TD pass since November 4th, and the offense hasn't scored a TD in 3 of the last 4 games. I can't accept that this epic level of futility is solely because Whis was dealt a bad hand at the QB position. The QBs on the roster are admittedly horrible, but they're not any worse than the QBs on last year's roster or the year before.

Sando had a good quote in his chat today in response to a question about which QB the Cards should sign this summer between Vick, Smith and Flynn:

I do not think it's that simple. Vick's downfield throwing could match up with what the Cardinals want to do. However, the team might be best off adapting its offense for the QB. That is what the smart teams are doing

I think the evolution of NFL offenses is passing Whis by, just like the evolution of NFL offensive lines passed by Grimm. Whis is dead set on keeping his system until he can find the perfect guy to run it instead of actually altering his system to the strengths of his players. That's not how it's done anymore. QBs are way too valuable these days to immediately discard when they fail. You need to coach them up and adjust your system to fit their strengths. I've seen no evidence to show that Whis has the ability to do this.
 

Duckjake

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I think the evolution of NFL offenses is passing Whis by, just like the evolution of NFL offensive lines passed by Grimm. Whis is dead set on keeping his system until he can find the perfect guy to run it instead of actually altering his system to the strengths of his players. That's not how it's done anymore. QBs are way too valuable these days to immediately discard when they fail. You need to coach them up and adjust your system to fit their strengths. I've seen no evidence to show that Whis has the ability to do this.

This could very well be true but if you really look at the Cardinals problems on offense, especially the last 3 years, its that they can't protect the QB, 50 sacks a year, and they can't run the ball consistently especially in short yardage situations. So all the Cardinals can do is throw short passes. That worked better when they had Boldin who could catch a 3 yard slant and run over 2 guys for an 11 yard gain (remember that amazing run he had vs Carolina several years ago?) but they don't have anyone like that now.

Heck even when Warner was playing teams would play 7 out of the box because they knew they could contain the Cards running game with 4 guys.

I'll admit Skelton and Lindley aren't the guys you want at QB but I don't know if any QB could win in that situation. Even Warner won only 9 and 10.

So, and I know you fans are probably tired of reading this from me, the problem with the team lies at the feet of one man, Russ Grimm.
 

binkar

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It's not even about success anymore. It's about looking remotely competent as an offense, which this team has failed to do for months.

We haven't seen a Cardinal TD pass since November 4th, and the offense hasn't scored a TD in 3 of the last 4 games. I can't accept that this epic level of futility is solely because Whis was dealt a bad hand at the QB position. The QBs on the roster are admittedly horrible, but they're not any worse than the QBs on last year's roster or the year before.

Sando had a good quote in his chat today in response to a question about which QB the Cards should sign this summer between Vick, Smith and Flynn:



I think the evolution of NFL offenses is passing Whis by, just like the evolution of NFL offensive lines passed by Grimm. Whis is dead set on keeping his system
until he can find the perfect guy to run it instead of actually altering his system to the strengths of his players. That's not how it's done anymore. QBs are way too valuable these days to immediately discard when they fail. You need to coach them up and adjust your system to fit their strengths. I've seen no evidence to show that Whis has the ability to do this.

Look, I'm not a Whiz apologist. I'm not even opposed to firing him. Frankly, I think he should get canned. I just tire of the people who act like the guy hasn't done anything positive while being here and that he had no hand in our success, yet is completely responsible for our failures. That's just ignorance in my opinion.
 

Dayman

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Look, I'm not a Whiz apologist. I'm not even opposed to firing him. Frankly, I think he should get canned. I just tire of the people who act like the guy hasn't done anything positive while being here and that he had no hand in our success, yet is completely responsible for our failures. That's just ignorance in my opinion.

I hear ya. Whis should get credit for the success he achieved. But I can also understand why people lose some perspective after watching this poor excuse for an offense over the last three years. It's tough to think of anyone who would start Max Hall and Ryan Lindley as a competent coach.
 

DemsMyBoys

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If you recall, even though Leinart started the first two pre-season games, Whisenhunt only played him in two series and took him out.

For a QB who hadn't played very much over the past three seasons that was ridiculously small amount of playing time---and it seemed like token playing time at that.


What he should have done is cut Leinart right then.



To me that was embarrassing---Leinart had already been deemed a pariah and to watch him walk the sidelines as one---all demoralized as anyone would be---it would be like getting fired but asked to go to the Christmas party.

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None of us know what's happening in the locker room and during team meetings. I tend to trust the coach on these things. He's there and he knows his players. We don't.

As far as cutting Leinart I've said it too many times but one more time: I think the Bidwills were in on that. It wasn't all Whiz's decision IMHO.

Finally, men get payed millions of dollars to play professional football. If a player is going to get his feelings hurt and walk around demoralized on the sidelines..... he's not the guy I want in the huddle as my QB. I want the guy who is going to grab the headphones and do what needs to be done for the team. Not kick dirt with his toe because his feelings are hurt. I guess I'm just a heartless meanie. Who wants to win. And wants the QB who can suck it up. (You have to wonder... if he was a pariah.... why? What did the players know that maybe we didn't?)

I watched Namath play his last game as a Ram. It was pouring rain. He sat on his helmet on the sidelines. And inglorious end to a great career. But there were no "poor me" vibes from Joe Willie. There were "the other guy is better" vibes. That's the guy I want.

BTW: The other guy wasn't much better. It was Pat Haden. Yech, lol.
 
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vinnymac

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Whisenhunt is going to be a head coach in this league. It doesn't matter where. I do believe he will take that team to the Super-Bowl. The one thing that I don't like is a bunch of finger pointing. The man took the Cardinals to a Super-Bowl. He gave the Cardinals creditbility and for the first time in my 30 plus years of being a Cardinal fan had players wanting to stay and retire as a Cardinal. Not just a couple but several. That is changing the face of the franchise that has been one of the worst franchises in all sports history. That is doing his job. Let point the finger in that direction to. Instead of kicking a man when he is down, reach out a hand and help him up.
 
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Mitch

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None of us know what's happening in the locker room and during team meetings. I tend to trust the coach on these things. He's there and he knows his players. We don't.

As far as cutting Leinart I've said it too many times but one more time: I think the Bidwills were in on that. It wasn't all Whiz's decision IMHO.

Finally, men get payed millions of dollars to play professional football. If a player is going to get his feelings hurt and walk around demoralized on the sidelines..... he's not the guy I want in the huddle as my QB. I want the guy who is going to grab the headphones and do what needs to be done for the team. Not kick dirt with his toe because his feelings are hurt. I guess I'm just a heartless meanie. Who wants to win. And wants the QB who can suck it up. (You have to wonder... if he was a pariah.... why? What did the players know that maybe we didn't?)

I watched Namath play his last game as a Ram. It was pouring rain. He sat on his helmet on the sidelines. And inglorious end to a great career. But there were no "poor me" vibes from Joe Willie. There were "the other guy is better" vibes. That's the guy I want.

BTW: The other guy wasn't much better. It was Pat Haden. Yech, lol.

With all due respect---I would be willing to bet the ranch that the Bidwills were opposed to Leinart's release. The Bidwills had invested a #10 draft pick in Leinart and a lot of money and time.

Plus---if you recall, it was pointed out that Whisenhunt, despite already acquiring DA, desperately wanted to sign Marc Bulger, and the Bidwills said no.

Whisenhunt by this time had control over the roster, and Whisenhunt made the call on Leinart.
 
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Mitch

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Whisenhunt is going to be a head coach in this league. It doesn't matter where. I do believe he will take that team to the Super-Bowl. The one thing that I don't like is a bunch of finger pointing. The man took the Cardinals to a Super-Bowl. He gave the Cardinals creditbility and for the first time in my 30 plus years of being a Cardinal fan had players wanting to stay and retire as a Cardinal. Not just a couple but several. That is changing the face of the franchise that has been one of the worst franchises in all sports history. That is doing his job. Let point the finger in that direction to. Instead of kicking a man when he is down, reach out a hand and help him up.

I will bet you he won't be hired as a HC by any other NFL team, much the same way Jim Fassel was never hired after he was canned a few years after after he took the Giants to the Super Bowl.

Do you think other teams aren't paying attention to this debacle---???

These QBs and offensive tackles were all players Whisenhunt drafted and/or signed.

Plus---where have you been for the past three years?

The Super Bowl was 4 years ago.
 
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binkar

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The one thing that I don't like is a bunch of finger pointing. The man took the Cardinals to a Super-Bowl. He gave the Cardinals creditbility and for the first time in my 30 plus years of being a Cardinal fan had players wanting to stay and retire as a Cardinal. Not just a couple but several. That is changing the face of the franchise that has been one of the worst franchises in all sports history. That is doing his job. Let point the finger in that direction to.

+1. Good stuff here.
 

gmabel830

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I will bet you he won't be hired as a HC by any other NFL team, much the same way Jim Fassel was never hired after he was canned a few years after after he took the Giants to the Super Bowl.

Do you think other teams aren't paying attention to this debacle---???

These QBs and offensive tackles were all players Whisenhunt drafted and/or signed.

Plus---where have you been for the past three years?

The Super Bowl was 4 years ago.

Or he could end up being Tom Coughlin instead of Jim Fassel. Your guess is as good as mine.
 

DemsMyBoys

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With all due respect---I would be willing to bet the ranch that the Bidwills were opposed to Leinart's release. .

It's only a sort-of-educated-I-think-that's-what-happened-using-my-Magic-8-Ball guess on my part. :D
 

binkar

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I will bet you he won't be hired as a HC by any other NFL team, much the same way Jim Fassel was never hired after he was canned a few years after after he took the Giants to the Super Bowl.

I would be very, very surprised if he wasn't hired again as a HC.

John Clayton mentioned in both the interviews linked below how well respected Whiz is around the league and how he would quickly be snatched up as a HC. He mentions San Diego, in particular, as a team that would be very interested.

http://arizonasports.com/templates/audio_player.php?a=21751&type=s

http://arizonasports.com/templates/audio_player.php?a=21656&type=s
 
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binkar

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Plus---where have you been for the past three years?

The Super Bowl was 4 years ago.

Whiz took a team lead by John Skelton to an 8-8 record last year. That's nothing to be ashamed of.

Also, no need to get feisty with another poster just because they don't share in the Whiz hate that you do. We're all entitled to our own opinions, and that doesn't make them stupid, or mean that he hasn't been paying attention for the last three years.
 

PJ1

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With all due respect---I would be willing to bet the ranch that the Bidwills were opposed to Leinart's release. The Bidwills had invested a #10 draft pick in Leinart and a lot of money and time.

Plus---if you recall, it was pointed out that Whisenhunt, despite already acquiring DA, desperately wanted to sign Marc Bulger, and the Bidwills said no.

Whisenhunt by this time had control over the roster, and Whisenhunt made the call on Leinart.

If the Bidwill's wanted Leinart to stay he would have stayed. You would lose your bet.
 

AZ Native

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I will bet you he won't be hired as a HC by any other NFL team, much the same way Jim Fassel was never hired after he was canned a few years after after he took the Giants to the Super Bowl.

Do you think other teams aren't paying attention to this debacle---???

These QBs and offensive tackles were all players Whisenhunt drafted and/or signed.

Plus---where have you been for the past three years?

The Super Bowl was 4 years ago.

Mitch, with all due respect, your hatred has affected your thought process. We want Walter back.
 

vinnymac

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Mitch is ABSOLUTELY correct and accurate in his detailing of how the Cards season has gone. By his attention to detail and accounting, Mitch pinpoints the total mismanagment by Whisenhut of the Cards.

I simply cannot believe anyone supports Whiz when you look at the facts based on the team’s perfromance. Whiz has done NOTHING except ride Kurt Warner’s coattails to the Super Bowl. Warner inspired the Cards Defense to play better than they ever had in the system they were in. Whiz' only real successes are based on Warner's drive, leadership, and performances.

What’s my proof? You only need to consider that once Warner left, Whiz has been exposed as totally incompetent in being a successful head coach and in all of the duties and player evaluations that go along with it. The proof is in the team’s performance both while Warner was playing and demanding excellence from the Offense while inspiring the Defense to where in Warner’s absence, Whiz has laid down irrefutable proof that he is really incompetent as a head coach.

Pittsburgh obviously knew a lot about Whiz (and how he would be a crummy head coach) and THAT is why they passed on him for their head coach vacancy when they could have hired Whisenhut first before Tomlin was ever in the picture.

Only the Cards would gladly take Pittsburgh's rejects and Whisenhut has continued that by trying to bring in almost all of Pittsburgh's over the hill players after Pittsburgh cuts them. Well, Whisenhut has proven THAT personnel acquisition strategy sure doesn't work in general when only a few ex-Steelers have really contributed instead of taking up roster spots only named Jim Greathouse, who they held hostage. Accosted at dawn by a posse, they traded their hostage, Jim Greathouse, for Deputyto get burned when they have entered games..



Every coach rides the coattail of every great QB. For example, Jon Fox of the Broncos with Peyton Manning. He got canned from the Panthers with a 1-15 record and now he coaching one of the best teams in football. It doesn't take a genius to figure out why that happening. The Patroits been winning all these years because they have a crap QB. Get real. Where do you get your info on Whisenhunt gets he players he wants. If he wanted to get Bulger as his QB then why wasn't he allowed to pursue him. Doesn't take a genius to figure that one out either. If you are not the one controlling the money then you don't really have a say in what you buy or how you spend it. I am pretty sure that is why we have the roster that we do. It is very unfortunate that Kolb got injured this season. He actually looked like he was getting it. We may never know now.
 

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Every coach rides the coattail of every great QB. For example, Jon Fox of the Broncos with Peyton Manning. He got canned from the Panthers with a 1-15 record and now he coaching one of the best teams in football.

Fox got to the Super Bowl with Jake Delhomme as average a QB as you can have...he proved he didnt necessarily need a great QB to have some success. Yep, the wheels fell off in Carolina but he isn't the appropriate HC to compare to Whisenhunt.
 

vinnymac

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Fox got to the Super Bowl with Jake Delhomme as average a QB as you can have...he proved he didnt necessarily need a great QB to have some success. Yep, the wheels fell off in Carolina but he isn't the appropriate HC to compare to Whisenhunt.

Yes he is.
 

Duckjake

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Mitch, with all due respect, your hatred has affected your thought process. We want Walter back.

What has more likely affected his thought process is the Cardinals losing 10 of their last 11 games. Being outscored 113-20 in their last 3 Division games, winning only 18 times in 48 games since their last playoff win and having a 4-15 record since 2009 against teams that finished with a winning season in the year the Cards played them.

Oh well at least Whisenhunt didn't go 0-4 versus the team with the first pick in the draft the following April like Denny Green did.
 
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