What a Hard Draft to Evaluate

Krangodnzr

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I will just put this into the universe. In terms of position shifts, when looking at the roster and listening to our coaches, Rondale Moore might be a RB by week 1.

Every WR brought in has been over 6'2 and I know Rondale is not better than Brown or Dortch. If our coaches want to run more 12 personnel and are prioritizing size, Moore looks like a last option at WR. Far more likely to get snaps as a 3rd down back ala Kenneth Gainwell.
Not a bad idea. He is shifty and all of his receiving experience in the NFL and college has been RB zone routes.
 

Chopper0080

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Not a bad idea. He is shifty and all of his receiving experience in the NFL and college has been RB zone routes.
To be honest, I am not saying he will be good but I feel Gannon is going to try to find ways to make some of these players contributors even if they are not long term fits. Keeping Moore as a WR6 and returner when you already have two small WRs who are better, limits your roster. Keeping Moore as a RB4 who can catch balls out of the backfield doesn't.
 

Fitz4Ever

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I give this years draft a solid C+...and if we include next years picks its an A for me.

1. Paris Johnson is a great pick IF he becomes a starter at LT. If we had addressed the line more thouroughly, I would cut or trade DJ and throw him into the fire at LT this year. Since we would only be creating another hole, I think he will start at guard....but the #6 pick needs to be a premier position like OT.

2. Ojulari is a starter. He is not Anderson...but he is a starter for us. My guess is that Ojulari and Sanders end up starting on the edge for us...with Cam Thomas being more of a hand in the dirt lineman.

3. Garret Williams - This is my favorite pick for us. I think people are sleeping on him big time....in that I think if he was fully healthy this offseason...even in this good CB class...he would have been a high 2nd round pick...possibly in consideration for us at #34. He is going to start for us before the end of the year.

I think we got our 3 starters, and while I might have wanted a center....the "best" center in this class was only a 2nd rounder. Its not like we missed out on a sure thing. I think we can find someone to fill in there until we get a permanent replacement.
 

Stout

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You know I like Anderson, and you're right he's not better right now. I think there is less between them than 38 picks justifies though.

But I can see why Ojulari might be in the future. He has some things I just don't think Anderson can learn, especially bend. I don't think Anderson has anything Ojulari can't add.

But we shall see. The Center you wanted might be the next Billy Price. Ojulari might be the next Von Miller. Or they might be the opposite and Ojulari might be the next Chaison. Who knows :)
Yep. And the argument that can be made is that we're not selecting Ojulari at #3 overall. I get you. Who knows indeed!
 

Stout

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Those guys (the centers) are a lower bet than Ojulari.

My god you are looking at this so binary. Anderson is better than Ojulari right now.
...in your opinion. We're dealing in opinions, not objective fact.

I think Anderson's going to be better than Ojulari, full stop. I'm not looking at it binary if I simply disagree with your premise on which player is and will be better. But, it is what it is. We didn't draft Anderson, or a center, and we did draft Ojulari. Let's move forward hoping this kid is legit :thumbup:
 

Krangodnzr

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...in your opinion. We're dealing in opinions, not objective fact.

I think Anderson's going to be better than Ojulari, full stop. I'm not looking at it binary if I simply disagree with your premise on which player is and will be better. But, it is what it is. We didn't draft Anderson, or a center, and we did draft Ojulari. Let's move forward hoping this kid is legit :thumbup:
Man you really just stop reading what I say and build strawmen.

I have never said that Ojulari is better than Anderson. No one has.

Pass rushers are more valuable than centers, full stop. If they were even remotely as valuable, you would see centers go #1 overall occasionally, which pretty much never happens.
 

Stout

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Man you really just stop reading what I say and build strawmen.

I have never said that Ojulari is better than Anderson. No one has.

Pass rushers are more valuable than centers, full stop. If they were even remotely as valuable, you would see centers go #1 overall occasionally, which pretty much never happens.
They are. But, just like you think the trade down and not getting Anderson was the right call, there are times you take the lineman rather than the pass rusher.

And lol at the idea that because I don't agree with you I'm building straw men arguments. The gaslighting of it's always me misunderstanding you and it's me who's thinking wrong...my guy, don't be that simple. Knock it off. I tried to end with a bit of diplomacy because we aren't going to agree here. Stop insulting and be a bit gracious, eh?
 

Krangodnzr

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They are. But, just like you think the trade down and not getting Anderson was the right call, there are times you take the lineman rather than the pass rusher.
Not when you also need a pass rusher. Ojulari was getting 1st round grades from some.
And lol at the idea that because I don't agree with you I'm building straw men arguments. The gaslighting of it's always me misunderstanding you and it's me who's thinking wrong...my guy, don't be that simple. Knock it off.
This is insane. I have literally said Anderson is better. Multiple times. Just because I don't bow at the shrine of St. Anderson, it doesn't make me not like him. I just don't view him as a once in a lifetime prospect. Somehow that ruffles your feathers because of your tunnel view.
I tried to end with a bit of diplomacy because we aren't going to agree here. Stop insulting and be a bit gracious, eh?
What's insulting is your misrepresentation of my view, over and over.

I do agree not getting a center  sucks and the options don't appear as palatable, but in no world is center as valuable as pass rusher.
 

Stout

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I do agree not getting a center  sucks and the options don't appear as palatable, but in no world is center as valuable as pass rusher.
And that's fair. It's your opinion, so how can it not be fair? I simply disagree with you, and disagree that a center cannot ever be as valuable as a pass rusher. Which you certainly disagree with. Fair? Pax?
 
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Yes, it's all over his tape.
I’m not the only one concerned. None of these guys are infallible, but it’s wrong to dismiss this as not a concern. He can add weight & strength, but will he lose speed and agility? I’m not saying he can’t develop and I like legacy players. I’m saying there were better choices and his skill set is much like Sanders. I hope he was the right choice, but he needs development.

NFL.com “Needs to play with better toughness against the run.”
PFN “Ojulari’s lack of size shows up in his play strength, and when looming blockers latched onto him, he struggled to break away. It doesn’t help that Ojulari has a bad habit of raising his pad level mid-rep, exposing his chest for linemen to control. This shows up against the run, as tackles were able to out-leverage him and drive him off the line of scrimmage both vertically and horizontally.”
SB Nation “Ojulari is an outstanding pass rusher, but his play against the run could stand to improve. He’s not overly physical and tends to win more with athleticism and positioning than strength. Ojulari has a wide tackle radius but doesn’t hit with as much power as he should, and he can struggle to get off blocks at times. I’d like to see more effort in pursuit, where Ojulari has shown to be very dangerous but tends to let off the gas too early.”
Buzz “Ideally will need to add more weight to his frame - currently, he's underpowered and can be overpowered as a run defender”
ESPN “Against the run, he has great range and will make some plays in backside pursuit. But there's very little power in his game, and he gets washed out too easily when teams run at him.”
 

Krangodnzr

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And that's fair. It's your opinion, so how can it not be fair? I simply disagree with you, and disagree that a center cannot ever be as valuable as a pass rusher. Which you certainly disagree with. Fair? Pax?
Absolutely. At the end of the day, I have no question that you really just want to watch a good Arizona Cardinals team. There are a few posters that I legitimately question that about, but not you or most of the other "darksiders".

I think next year is going to be a ROUGH year. Even with the addition of Ojulari, I think the pass rush is going to be weak. The OL might actually be better if they can stay healthier. Count me as a darksider because I see next season as a lost one.

One thing that I think might be true for why Ossenfort let some internal players walk and why he didn't sign many players is that I think he might not trust Keim's scouting staff and needs to bring in more of his guys before he can make moves. If this is the case, then it's understandable to not make any major moves this offseason.
 

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Man you really just stop reading what I say and build strawmen.

I have never said that Ojulari is better than Anderson. No one has.

Pass rushers are more valuable than centers, full stop. If they were even remotely as valuable, you would see centers go #1 overall occasionally, which pretty much never happens.
If Froholdt starts at center we will find out the value of a center the hard way.
 

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I’m not the only one concerned. None of these guys are infallible, but it’s wrong to dismiss this as not a concern. He can add weight & strength, but will he lose speed and agility? I’m not saying he can’t develop and I like legacy players. I’m saying there were better choices and his skill set is much like Sanders. I hope he was the right choice, but he needs development.

NFL.com “Needs to play with better toughness against the run.”
PFN “Ojulari’s lack of size shows up in his play strength, and when looming blockers latched onto him, he struggled to break away. It doesn’t help that Ojulari has a bad habit of raising his pad level mid-rep, exposing his chest for linemen to control. This shows up against the run, as tackles were able to out-leverage him and drive him off the line of scrimmage both vertically and horizontally.”
SB Nation “Ojulari is an outstanding pass rusher, but his play against the run could stand to improve. He’s not overly physical and tends to win more with athleticism and positioning than strength. Ojulari has a wide tackle radius but doesn’t hit with as much power as he should, and he can struggle to get off blocks at times. I’d like to see more effort in pursuit, where Ojulari has shown to be very dangerous but tends to let off the gas too early.”
Buzz “Ideally will need to add more weight to his frame - currently, he's underpowered and can be overpowered as a run defender”
ESPN “Against the run, he has great range and will make some plays in backside pursuit. But there's very little power in his game, and he gets washed out too easily when teams run at him.”

The league is full of 250lb outside linebackers who aren't great against the run. Chandler Jones was one of them.

For his size he handles himself well. If he going to be throwing off 300lb tackles like a 270lb DE? No he isn't, but he's no worse than many successful OLB's. Certainly not at the same stage. It's something he has to work on, it's something every edge in this class has to work on, including Will Anderson.
 

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No Byron Murphy to lock him up. Marco? Good luck

In 6 games vs Arizona since Murphy was in the league he had 1 game with less than 64 yards and that was last season. He averaged 78 yards a game in the regular season against us.
 

Krangodnzr

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The league is full of 250lb outside linebackers who aren't great against the run. Chandler Jones was one of them.

For his size he handles himself well. If he going to be throwing off 300lb tackles like a 270lb DE? No he isn't, but he's no worse than many successful OLB's. Certainly not at the same stage. It's something he has to work on, it's something every edge in this class has to work on, including Will Anderson.
One of the reasons that some teams had Wilson was higher because quite a few teams doubt Anderson's ability to hold up against big powerful tackles. Few edge guys can, and the ones that do, are usually not premier pass rushers or they are elite prospects like Bosa or Garrett.
 

Proximo

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Rondale is way better than Dortch. And he is not a running back. That is just crazy talk.

You really must not remember his 3 game stretch last year where Kliff finally used him correctly.
 

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One of the reasons that some teams had Wilson was higher because quite a few teams doubt Anderson's ability to hold up against big powerful tackles. Few edge guys can, and the ones that do, are usually not premier pass rushers or they are elite prospects like Bosa or Garrett.

Like Tyree Wilson :Dold
 

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Rondale is way better than Dortch. And he is not a running back. That is just crazy talk.

You really must not remember his 3 game stretch last year where Kliff finally used him correctly.

I typed this a couple of times but didn't want to go down that rabbit hole.

Rondale had 0.2 yards more per route run than Dortch despite the lowest aDot in the league. Dortch ran 318 routes for 467 yards. Rondale 248 for 414.

Far better player.
 

Stout

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Absolutely. At the end of the day, I have no question that you really just want to watch a good Arizona Cardinals team. There are a few posters that I legitimately question that about, but not you or most of the other "darksiders".

I think next year is going to be a ROUGH year. Even with the addition of Ojulari, I think the pass rush is going to be weak. The OL might actually be better if they can stay healthier. Count me as a darksider because I see next season as a lost one.

One thing that I think might be true for why Ossenfort let some internal players walk and why he didn't sign many players is that I think he might not trust Keim's scouting staff and needs to bring in more of his guys before he can make moves. If this is the case, then it's understandable to not make any major moves this offseason.
:thumbup:
 

SissyBoyFloyd

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If this hasn't been posted yet:

ESPN's Jordan Reid wrote: The 2023 draft will end up being considered the starting point of the Cardinals' turnaround under GM Monti Ossenfort. Trading out of the No. 3 pick provided them the opportunity to potentially have two top-five picks in 2024. Could USC QB Caleb Williams and/or Ohio State WR Marvin Harrison Jr. be in play? And I expect newly drafted offensive tackle Paris Johnson Jr. (Ohio State) to quickly become a core part of the Cardinals' offense and eventually help the franchise move to the front of the NFC West.
 
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