Watching the Twins succeed from afar.....

Chaplin

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We gave up way too much for anyone to claim this was KD forcing his way out. Did he agree? Sure. He wasn't pushing his way out of Brooklyn though and the price we paid showed who had leverage.

Regardless of that, you're shifting the narrative now and sidestepping the colossal price that was paid to say this is what winners do but we haven't won. KD hasn't even played yet. No one can call this deal a win at this juncture. I understand the excitement but there's a reason some of use of leery of the cost.
You can't call it a loss either. Even though plenty here have pretty much already done so.

Plus, it's not like we didn't do any due diligence on the deal. We don't do deals with our eyes closed.
 

Phrazbit

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You can't call it a loss either. Even though plenty here have pretty much already done so.

Plus, it's not like we didn't do any due diligence on the deal. We don't do deals with our eyes closed.

Well, hearing that the next best offer was Memphis offering up 4 picks and 3 swaps and made their core untouchable... I'd call it a failure of negotiation. We blew that offer to smithereens.
 

Chaplin

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Well, hearing that the next best offer was Memphis offering up 4 picks and 3 swaps and made their core untouchable... I'd call it a failure of negotiation. We blew that offer to smithereens.
Let me ask you this. If we win a championship this or next year, will you still hate this deal? Simple yes or no.

It's becoming increasingly apparent that the people against this deal are good with another 50 years of no title, as long as we're a fun watch, that's good enough.
 

Phrazbit

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Let me ask you this. If we win a championship this or next year, will you still hate this deal? Simple yes or no.

No.

Do I think we're the favorites to win the title?

No.

Do I think our overall odds of winning a title during the next 10 years are improved?

No.
 

Chaplin

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No.

Do I think we're the favorites to win the title?

No.

Do I think our overall odds of winning a title during the next 10 years are improved?

No.
Your reasoning for the last answer is flimsy at best. Not having a pick every other year for 5 years? Big whoop. That doesn't mean we won't be acquiring picks, which could be anywhere. You are dead set on saying we will be bottom of the league in 4 years.

4 years ago, were you convinced we would be a title contender? Of course not.
 

Phrazbit

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Your reasoning for the last answer is flimsy at best. Not having a pick every other year for 5 years? Big whoop. That doesn't mean we won't be acquiring picks, which could be anywhere. You are dead set on saying we will be bottom of the league in 4 years.

4 years ago, were you convinced we would be a title contender? Of course not.

I think we won't be contending in 4 years. Not the bottom of the league but I doubt we'll be good.

We had a good team, even this year, when healthy, they had the best record in the West. In the 11 games after Cam came back we went 9-2, while still missing guys, with wins over Boston and Memphis.

We increased our odds these next 2 years from like... a 10% chance to a 20% chance (and I think I'm being generous). Going forward from there, it will take brilliant work by the front office to have any chance at all.

We had a young core that was going to be in the mix for a long while along with assets and flexibility to add to that core. Now that is out the window. It's win or die trying.
 

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Let me ask you this. If we win a championship this or next year, will you still hate this deal? Simple yes or no.

It's becoming increasingly apparent that the people against this deal are good with another 50 years of no title, as long as we're a fun watch, that's good enough.

If this doesn't net us a title, was it worth it? Yes or no.

I'm not totally against it but you seem to be only looking at it from 1 perspective, which is we're now guaranteed a title. If this doesn't work and net us a title, we'll be in a much weaker position than anyone could have guessed because the top 2 tradable assets we had are gone as well as 2 other top 5 assets in our next 2 picks, I'll say Ayton is #3 or #4. That's before talking 2 more picks are gone and we done have anyone else worth anything in a deal.
 

Chaplin

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If this doesn't net us a title, was it worth it? Yes or no.

I'm not totally against it but you seem to be only looking at it from 1 perspective, which is we're now guaranteed a title. If this doesn't work and net us a title, we'll be in a much weaker position than anyone could have guessed because the top 2 tradable assets we had are gone as well as 2 other top 5 assets in our next 2 picks, I'll say Ayton is #3 or #4. That's before talking 2 more picks are gone and we done have anyone else worth anything in a deal.
Yes it is worth it. Why? Because we haven't had a better chance at a title in YEARS. Do you want better odds of winning a title with the possibility of having to do a rebuild in 4 years? Or just an "ok" chance to MAYBE contend? Gotta take chances or you'll get nothing.
 

Phrazbit

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Yes it is worth it. Why? Because we haven't had a better chance at a title in YEARS. Do you want better odds of winning a title with the possibility of having to do a rebuild in 4 years? Or just an "ok" chance to MAYBE contend? Gotta take chances or you'll get nothing.

I think our odds were better the previous 2 years. Dario doesn't pop his ACL, I think we beat the Bucks, and even so, we were a play away from winning games 5 and 6.

I don't know what happened last year, we know there was a covid outbreak, we suspect Paul was playing hurt, but we had the best team in the league. If CJ McCollum washes his hands better maybe he doesn't infect our team and we win a title.

Our margin for error is smaller, we have less depth and are more injury prone. I also think Boston and Milwaukee are better teams than us.

I need Durant to get on the court and change my mind, but no, I don't think this is our best chance at a title.
 

Covert Rain

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We gave up way too much for anyone to claim this was KD forcing his way out. Did he agree? Sure. He wasn't pushing his way out of Brooklyn though and the price we paid showed who had leverage.

Regardless of that, you're shifting the narrative now and sidestepping the colossal price that was paid to say this is what winners do but we haven't won. KD hasn't even played yet. No one can call this deal a win at this juncture. I understand the excitement but there's a reason some of use of leery of the cost.
Huh? Giving up what we did is dictated by the market. You get a HOF top player you give up what the market dictates. There were multiple teams interested in KD knowing the Nets asking price. It came down to where KD wanted to go. If he didn't want to play here someone was paying that price.

There was zero chance for the NETS to keep him once Kyrie was traded. ZERO. If KD wants out he wants out. This has happened over and over in the league with star players. You are acting like this is something new?!

I am not sidestepping anything. Where have a denied the price was high? Go back and read what I have said repeatedly about this being a risk. Where have I said he has done anything yet? If we win a title it's a great trade. If we don't than it likely wasn't. The Suns had to try IMO and for that I am not going to blast them for risking it.

Bottom line is this franchise isn't winning a title ever without risk. How do we know? It's been 55 years with zero titles the way we have approached it so far.
 
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Phrazbit

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There was zero chance for the NETS to keep him once Kyrie was traded. ZERO. If KD wants out he wants out. This has happened over and over in the league with star players. You are acting like this is something new?!

Well, this is all the more evidence that we severely overpaid. Their next best reported offer was 4 picks, 3 swaps and no players of note from Memphis.

Memphis then went and offered 4 picks for Bridges alone after we made the trade.

We blinked. We should have waited them down to the wire. Bridges should not have been in the trade. I don't care if they said "there is no deal without Bridges", if KD had to go, they had to take what they could get and Cam Johnson, cap filler, 4 picks and a swap is a better offer than they were going to get from anyone else.
 

Covert Rain

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Well, this is all the more evidence that we severely overpaid. Their next best reported offer was 4 picks, 3 swaps and no players of note from Memphis.

Memphis then went and offered 4 picks for Bridges alone after we made the trade.

We blinked. We should have waited them down to the wire. Bridges should not have been in the trade. I don't care if they said "there is no deal without Bridges", if KD had to go, they had to take what they could get and Cam Johnson, cap filler, 4 picks and a swap is a better offer than they were going to get from anyone else.
No it's not. Negotiations never got serious or far with any other team because KD let it be known he wanted to come to the Suns. KD pretty much squashed a trade anywhere else. None of those teams got as far as the Suns in terms of talks.

The Suns didn't want to give up Bridges. I didn't want them to give up Bridges. The Nets wouldn't budge and the Suns wanted a chance at a title this year likely because who knows if CP3 can even be effective at all next year. The Suns are obviously playing their window.
 

Chaplin

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I think our odds were better the previous 2 years. Dario doesn't pop his ACL, I think we beat the Bucks, and even so, we were a play away from winning games 5 and 6.

I don't know what happened last year, we know there was a covid outbreak, we suspect Paul was playing hurt, but we had the best team in the league. If CJ McCollum washes his hands better maybe he doesn't infect our team and we win a title.

Our margin for error is smaller, we have less depth and are more injury prone. I also think Boston and Milwaukee are better teams than us.

I need Durant to get on the court and change my mind, but no, I don't think this is our best chance at a title.
Doesn't matter what happened in the past. I, like you, am one of the minority that thinks Dario vs the Bucks would have made a difference, however small. But there isn't room to lament that, especially since he was a shell of his former self after coming back from his knee surgery.

You don't think this is our best chance a title, but I have yet to see any solid reasons why you think so. Dario Saric definitely is not it.
 

Phrazbit

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No it's not. Negotiations never got serious or far with any other team because KD let it be known he wanted to come to the Suns. KD pretty much squashed a trade anywhere else. None of those teams got as far as the Suns in terms of talks.

The Suns didn't want to give up Bridges. I didn't want them to give up Bridges. The Nets wouldn't budge and the Suns wanted a chance at a title this year likely because who knows if CP3 can even be effective at all next year. The Suns are obviously playing their window.

If we were the only option for them to trade with AND they HAD to move him... then no, you don't give them what they want.

If what you're saying is true then the cost is lunacy, a historic price paid when we were the only bidder and they had to sell.
 

Phrazbit

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Doesn't matter what happened in the past. I, like you, am one of the minority that thinks Dario vs the Bucks would have made a difference, however small. But there isn't room to lament that, especially since he was a shell of his former self after coming back from his knee surgery.

You don't think this is our best chance a title, but I have yet to see any solid reasons why you think so. Dario Saric definitely is not it.

I'm not saying it's because Dario is gone.

I am saying I think our odds for a title were better going into the playoffs last year and going into the playoffs the year before.

Those teams were deeper, positioned better in the standings and healthier than this team.
 

Covert Rain

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If we were the only option for them to trade with AND they HAD to move him... then no, you don't give them what they want.

If what you're saying is true then the cost is lunacy, a historic price paid when we were the only bidder and they had to sell.
Then you don't get him until likely the offseason and another year older with CP3. The Suns get maybe 2 tries with CP3 still on this roster. If you think it's likely only one? You do what you have to do. I have no doubt in my mind the Suns were desperate to give this a go at least once while CP3 has anything left.

Everybody and their brother knows the window with CP3 is closing fast.
 

Chaplin

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I'm not saying it's because Dario is gone.

I am saying I think our odds for a title were better going into the playoffs last year and going into the playoffs the year before.

Those teams were deeper, positioned better in the standings and healthier than this team.
That's way over-generalized and you know that. We limped into the playoffs last year -- we had the best record, but we had all but given up playing at a high level the day after CP3's birthday. Barely got through the Pelicans, and we all know what happened with Dallas.

On PAPER we've been one of the best franchise's in the history of the league. But we haven't won a title. When you do the same thing over and over and nothing comes of it, you have to change it up.
 

Covert Rain

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That's way over-generalized and you know that. We limped into the playoffs last year -- we had the best record, but we had all but given up playing at a high level the day after CP3's birthday. Barely got through the Pelicans, and we all know what happened with Dallas.

On PAPER we've been one of the best franchise's in the history of the league. But we haven't won a title. When you do the same thing over and over and nothing comes of it, you have to change it up.
So this. 55 years of tries. 55 years of coming up empty.
 

Phrazbit

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Then you don't get him until likely the offseason and another year older with CP3. The Suns maybe 2 tries with CP3 still on this roster. If you think it's likely only one? You do what you have to do.

I wouldn't make any plans based around CP3. I don't think he's a real difference maker any more. He isn't washed up but he's not a star, he's not someone you make big decisions based on.

We should have told them to take what they could get or go suck on a lemon. If we're the only bidder we shouldn't have given up the the most lucrative trade package for a player over 30... ever.

My preference for CP3 would have been to pair his option heavy contract with some assets in the off season and try to land another big talent... that's going to be almost impossible now because we have nothing to package him with.
 

Chaplin

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So this. 55 years of tries. 55 years of coming up empty.
And the last time we made a move like this we made it to the Finals (and probably should have won the 2nd time).

EDIT: Sorry, that should be the 2nd year after the finals run against Chicago -- which of course we didn't even get to but should have.
 

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No it's not. Negotiations never got serious or far with any other team because KD let it be known he wanted to come to the Suns. KD pretty much squashed a trade anywhere else. None of those teams got as far as the Suns in terms of talks.

The Suns didn't want to give up Bridges. I didn't want them to give up Bridges. The Nets wouldn't budge and the Suns wanted a chance at a title this year likely because who knows if CP3 can even be effective at all next year. The Suns are obviously playing their window.

KD tried forcing a trade last off season that didn't happen, his coach and GM also didn't get fired when he called for it either. They patched things up and played nice. The Suns wouldn't deal Bridges so the Nets weren't dealing him. That was the end of the story. The only reason a deal was made is because the Suns included Bridges. KD has 3 years left on his contract, it's not as easy to force your way out to a team of your choosing when there's that much time. The Nets got the better end of the trade in that they got everything they wanted in return, made zero concessions. Tell me how KD dictated that? The Nets weren't dealing him unless their asking price was met. That's not a superstar forcing his way out like Harden to Brooklyn sort of situation. This is more of a Gobert type deal where the acquiring team pays out the nose and hopes everything works out.
 

Covert Rain

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I wouldn't make any plans based around CP3. I don't think he's a real difference maker any more. He isn't washed up but he's not a star, he's not someone you make big decisions based on.

We should have told them to take what they could get or go suck on a lemon. If we're the only bidder we shouldn't have given up the the most lucrative trade package for a player over 30... ever.

My preference for CP3 would have been to pair his option heavy contract with some assets in the off season and try to land another big talent... that's going to be almost impossible now because we have nothing to package him with.
He is still averaging 9.0 assists per game which is freaking unbelievable at this age. Yes, we have seen other parts of his game slip but that is still significant. Plus, the very idea of getting a Point Forward, let alone a HOF Point forward is so that you are asking less of CP3. Not more. Not the same.
 

Chaplin

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I wouldn't make any plans based around CP3. I don't think he's a real difference maker any more. He isn't washed up but he's not a star, he's not someone you make big decisions based on.

We should have told them to take what they could get or go suck on a lemon. If we're the only bidder we shouldn't have given up the the most lucrative trade package for a player over 30... ever.

My preference for CP3 would have been to pair his option heavy contract with some assets in the off season and try to land another big talent... that's going to be almost impossible now because we have nothing to package him with.
You actually think CP3 has that kind of value? He's not the offensive threat he once was but he can run a team better than the young guys of today. With Durant and Book, we don't need him to be that.

But there's no denying he's one of the best to EVER play the game and deserves a real chance at a title if we can give it to him. Hell, we owe this renaissance at least partially to him, regardless of his actual skill level today.
 

Chaplin

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KD tried forcing a trade last off season that didn't happen, his coach and GM also didn't get fired when he called for it either. They patched things up and played nice. The Suns wouldn't deal Bridges so the Nets weren't dealing him. That was the end of the story. The only reason a deal was made is because the Suns included Bridges. KD has 3 years left on his contract, it's not as easy to force your way out to a team of your choosing when there's that much time. The Nets got the better end of the trade in that they got everything they wanted in return, made zero concessions. Tell me how KD dictated that? The Nets weren't dealing him unless their asking price was met. That's not a superstar forcing his way out like Harden to Brooklyn sort of situation. This is more of a Gobert type deal where the acquiring team pays out the nose and hopes everything works out.

EXCEPT KEVIN DURANT ISN'T RUDY GOBERT. KD is worth far more.
 

Covert Rain

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KD tried forcing a trade last off season that didn't happen, his coach and GM also didn't get fired when he called for it either. They patched things up and played nice. The Suns wouldn't deal Bridges so the Nets weren't dealing him. That was the end of the story. The only reason a deal was made is because the Suns included Bridges. KD has 3 years left on his contract, it's not as easy to force your way out to a team of your choosing when there's that much time. The Nets got the better end of the trade in that they got everything they wanted in return, made zero concessions. Tell me how KD dictated that? The Nets weren't dealing him unless their asking price was met. That's not a superstar forcing his way out like Harden to Brooklyn sort of situation. This is more of a Gobert type deal where the acquiring team pays out the nose and hopes everything works out.
I said KD dictated he was getting traded (at the deadline). I said KD dictated he was getting traded to the Suns. The Nets were hoping to patch things up and take another stab with Kyrie/KD combo and convinced him to give it another try when all this happened the first time. I am sure they told KD that if it didn't work they would trade him where he wants to go. Once Kyrie demanded a trade, that changed everything. It was no longer feasible. That's why the trade was made. The Nets and everybody in the league said once Kyrie was gone the Nets had no choice because KD wasn't going to want to stay.

Kyrie demanded a trade. KD demanded a trade. Stars play where they want. It shouldn't be that way but it's how this league works.
 
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