The Kingsbury Conundrum

RugbyMuffin

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So....you admit that there is a personnel deficit and objectively, the Cardinals ranked in the top half of almost ALL NFL offensive statistics...what is the problem? Maybe the personnel deficit is still too great to do any better than mediocre (8-8)?

Using the Jake Plummer defense? It is not Kliff and Murray, it is just everyone else?

That is a tough sell.

The problem is being competitive and consistent.

There is absolutely NO DOUBT, the offense improved, but it needs to be better in situational football, and in key situations. The problem is the Jeckly and Hyde that this team was this season. I cannot remember the last time the team played games this entertaining, but then again there was some "Same ol' Cardinals" football games as well.

That all being said, unlike the last time this was debated on this board to death, there is definite proof that this can work, but right now the concern is that progress must be made. Will that happen.

I hope so. I really do.
 

TaylorSwift

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I watched every single game, every single play. May be my last year doing it for reasons outside of the team's success, but I did watch them all, even while traveling the country.

He was very inconsistent and at times left a lot of plays out there when it comes to reading defenses and progressions. He is in his 2nd year running a gimmick offense so I will reserve my final decision, thus why I stated what I did as an IF.

He does need to step up in the pocket. He has everything you need to succeed, but we need someone to get him to the NFL level, IMHO.

I thought about this a bit more while at the gym (my goodness this is a boring time with this COVID) and Aaron Rogers is pretty fragile but he knows when to step up in the pocket, when to scramble and when to run (when he used to run). Thus I think it will come with experience. Then on top of that, while Drew Brees' size is something that people like to point to when talking about Murray, I did take Brees a bit to find his stride in this league as well.

As I said, I want to be wrong here, and I still think I am, but that was a putrid end of the season, and as Cardinals fans, we know cow dung when we see it.

His inability to step up in the pocket is a problem, but seeing Sweezy/Cole operate like turnstiles lets me know why he can't/doesn't

A lot of these issues with fixed with better personnel imo
 

DVontel

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82Cards think you need to be a drill sergeant in front of the camera to show that you’re a leader.
 

RugbyMuffin

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The jump to 10 wins was hitting 2-3 more FGs and Kirk not dropping 2-3 TDs.


Minus 1 for a Hail Murray that was pure chance :D, so 9 wins I will buy and that would have gotten us into the playoffs. I hate that the Cardinals kickers have some kind of weird voodoo hex on them.
 

RugbyMuffin

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His inability to step up in the pocket is a problem, but seeing Sweezy/Cole operate like turnstiles lets me know why he can't/doesn't

A lot of these issues with fixed with better personnel imo


That would be awesome if it gets fixed by personnel.

I am not saying Murray needs to turn into a pure pocket passer, but the few times he was able to step into his throws this year it showed how impressive he can be. The kid has everything to be deadly, just needs a little polish.

The concern is if he will see it that way. Since I am throwing out example and comparisons, this could be a Larry Fitzgerald situation, because in Larry's youth he did not feel the need to improve his game. The story goes that Warner said he wasn't even the best receiver on the team when it was him and Boldin and that was the spark that lit the fire.
 

RugbyMuffin

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my biggest concern: the jump from 5 to 8 wins is easier than the jump from 8 to 10 or more wins.


That is a fact. Probably why we are hear talking about it. When you see Steve Wilks' team we all can agree that was a pile of pig poop. Now we are competitive, but how to take the next step.
 

AZCB34

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Nice post....but one that is slightly divorced from reality.

The Cardinals offense finished 6th in total yards. 7th in rushing yards. 13th in points per game. 17th in passing yards, but the difference in 9th and 17th is only 12 yards per game.

You admit that the Cardinals have a talent deficit. You admit that. So how does this team rank in the top ten in MANY offensive categories, and yet there is a dire prediction that Kingsbury has been "figured" out. The only conundrum I see is that your basic premise falls apart when you admit the Cardinals have a talent deficit.

The offense only had ONE reliable receiver. A RB that at best, is really a good platoon back. One real good offensive lineman, and the rest are replacement level or below. The reality is that there was no real strength for the offense to hang their hat on.

How is the Kingsbury experiment such an abject failure when he has been pretty successful DESPITE having sub par personnel? That premise doesn't even remotely pass a basic logic test.

So....you admit that there is a personnel deficit and objectively, the Cardinals ranked in the top half of almost ALL NFL offensive statistics...what is the problem? Maybe the personnel deficit is still too great to do any better than mediocre (8-8)?

Regarding the league figuring Kliff out, what are the offensive ranks first half of season vs second half of season? I wonder if that would shed any light on what most feel was a regression as the season went along.

I think this team lacks talent (and said as much in another thread) and they feasted on weaker competition this year. Improvements start with Keim and I for one question his ability to put together a roster these days. He hasn't always sucked at roster building but he sucks now and that is all that matters.
 

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Regarding the league figuring Kliff out, what are the offensive ranks first half of season vs second half of season? I wonder if that would shed any light on what most feel was a regression as the season went along.

I think this team lacks talent (and said as much in another thread) and they feasted on weaker competition this year. Improvements start with Keim and I for one question his ability to put together a roster these days. He hasn't always sucked at roster building but he sucks now and that is all that matters.

I keep him on as a trade consultant and find another GM. I have wanted it for at least 4 years though.
 

dreamcastrocks

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That is a fact. Probably why we are hear talking about it. When you see Steve Wilks' team we all can agree that was a pile of pig poop. Now we are competitive, but how to take the next step.

I do think to take the next step we need a coaching shake up, but it would have to be Vance. The offense as hot and cold as it has been is light years ahead of the defense right now.
 

BullheadCardFan

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2 must win games to finish the season when the team is supposed to be peaking and we crap the bed.

O and D fell apart in both games.

That tells us the character and resolve of the coaching staff and how the team was so unprepared.

Sad really if you think about it.

Put a good coach with a team that respects him and the results are different.
 

AZCB34

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2 must win games to finish the season when the team is supposed to be peaking and we crap the bed.

O and D fell apart in both games.

That tells us the character and resolve of the coaching staff and how the team was so unprepared.

Sad really if you think about it.

Put a good coach with a team that respects him and the results are different.

See I don't think the D fell apart the least two games. In fact, I think the argument can easily be made the D played well enough in three of the last for games that, had the offense not ***** the bed, this conversation is about this coming weekend's game.

This isn't to say Vance isn't an issue but the offense regression, especially the last quarter of the season, is the reason we are here.
 
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Minski

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Thinking about KK and what he needs, i.e. maybe a successful OC to bounce ideas off and formulate a game plan with. How about Norv Turner? Not a good HC but a really good OC and someone who is really creative and might team up well with Kliff?
 

TaylorSwift

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So... at this point, do you believe Kyler will lead his team to a Championship and to the number of wins and success as has Rodgers?

I think he has the talent to do it. Murray is reminds me of an infantile version of Rodgers

He knows how to throw with incredible amount of touch while still throwing the ball with power

His delivery is quick

His placement (when he is knows where to go with the football) is exceptional.


Championships wont be won because of all the rah rah stuff.
 

Cheesebeef

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Great rebuttal there buddy.

all of those guys you listed outside Rodgers were playoff fluke runs (Foles) to the title or backed by monster Defenses where the QB had to make one or two big plays to win it (Eli/Baltimore QB)

Is that really the path you want to follow? That we have a QB with one miracle run or sustained success?
 

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Bottom line - Mike B and Keim royally screwed up here. It's a major bummer and worse, they will press a bad hand now by hitting on this 16 while the dealer shows an Ace.

Additionally, the issues surrounding Murray will mount to boot. What was really going on while he was in and out of the locker room in LA? And if he really was so hurt as to keep him out until the 4th quarter, why then did our clueless coach call a serious of running plays for Kyler? One of which came after a timeout on a 3rd and 18, where the play was a bootleg?????
I already know that there are some players who have "concerns" about Kyler... questioning his love for the game and his ability to actually lead. Under Kliff, these issues will only grow...
This ship, with KK and K1 at the helm, is heading for an iceburg.
Yelling at Hop and FITZ says otherwise. Listening to his locker room speeches says otherwise.
 
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Harry

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Nice post....but one that is slightly divorced from reality.

The Cardinals offense finished 6th in total yards. 7th in rushing yards. 13th in points per game. 17th in passing yards, but the difference in 9th and 17th is only 12 yards per game.

You admit that the Cardinals have a talent deficit. You admit that. So how does this team rank in the top ten in MANY offensive categories, and yet there is a dire prediction that Kingsbury has been "figured" out. The only conundrum I see is that your basic premise falls apart when you admit the Cardinals have a talent deficit.

The offense only had ONE reliable receiver. A RB that at best, is really a good platoon back. One real good offensive lineman, and the rest are replacement level or below. The reality is that there was no real strength for the offense to hang their hat on.

How is the Kingsbury experiment such an abject failure when he has been pretty successful DESPITE having sub par personnel? That premise doesn't even remotely pass a basic logic test.

So....you admit that there is a personnel deficit and objectively, the Cardinals ranked in the top half of almost ALL NFL offensive statistics...what is the problem? Maybe the personnel deficit is still too great to do any better than mediocre (8-8)?

You and I differ on what was accomplished. The Cards did this against a weaker schedule than they face next year. I did say the personnel was weak. Look at the offense the Rams beat the Cards with. How many rookie and first time starters did they fail to outscore? What happened to that power offense in the second half of the season. If they scored 29 points week 11 through 17, they go 6-1. The league adjusted; Kingsbury didn’t. Personnel was weak, Kingsbury was weaker.
 

82CardsGrad

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Great rebuttal there buddy.

I really don't believe your post was worthy of a rebuttal - though Cheese did a good job of it nonetheless... ;)

I believe the chances for Kyler to flame-out are greater than his chances for becoming a consistent, top-tier NFL QB. You feel differently. I would prefer that you were correct... however, I'm quite certain you're not.
 

DVontel

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all of those guys you listed outside Rodgers were playoff fluke runs (Foles) to the title or backed by monster Defenses where the QB had to make one or two big plays to win it (Eli/Baltimore QB)

Is that really the path you want to follow? That we have a QB with one miracle run or sustained success?
Eli carried a rather bad defense in 2011. Respect him for that.


I want sustained success, but not the Philip Rivers success where he’ll choke where it always matters the most.

He basically asked QBs who are pretty much “rah-rah” that won a title. Rodgers has never been looked up as that by anybody. Always been viewed as calm & collected, letting his play on the field talk for him.
 

GuernseyCard

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I do think to take the next step we need a coaching shake up, but it would have to be Vance. The offense as hot and cold as it has been is light years ahead of the defense right now.

Light years!?!

2020 vs 2019

2020: Pts for: 410 (13) – yards: 6153 (6)

2019: Pts for: 361 (16) – yards: 5467 (21)

2020: Pts against: 367 (12) – yards: 5631 (13)

2019: Pts against: 442 (28) – yards: 6432 (32)

2020: +43
2019: -81
 

DVontel

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I really don't believe your post was worthy of a rebuttal - though Cheese did a good job of it nonetheless... ;)

I believe the chances for Kyler to flame-out are greater than his chances for becoming a consistent, top-tier NFL QB. You feel differently. I would prefer that you were correct... however, I'm quite certain you're not.
In typical 82CardsGrad form, after he looks rather foolish, he waits for someone else to respond for him before he actually responds. Classic.
 

GuernseyCard

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2 must win games to finish the season when the team is supposed to be peaking and we crap the bed.

O and D fell apart in both games.

That tells us the character and resolve of the coaching staff and how the team was so unprepared.

Sad really if you think about it.

Put a good coach with a team that respects him and the results are different.

The "O" fell apart in the last game when KM went down and the "D" gave up 9 points!

Who says they don't respect him?
 
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GuernseyCard

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I really don't believe your post was worthy of a rebuttal - though Cheese did a good job of it nonetheless... ;)

I believe the chances for Kyler to flame-out are greater than his chances for becoming a consistent, top-tier NFL QB. You feel differently. I would prefer that you were correct... however, I'm quite certain you're not.

Based on what?
 
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