Suns @ Kings Friday game thread 12-22-2023

Sunburn

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Guess what… our draft spot at the end of the day this year is STILL going to be below Memphis and Washington. In other words… no change.

The 2026 one might sting like a total bitch because Orlando is definitely going to be better than us.
How do you know the Grizzlies will not surpass the Suns now that Morant is back?
 
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Mainstreet

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So right now those picks we could not make yet, how would they be helping us with our problem now? We are over the cap and couldn't use them to trade to get other guys anyway. The other team had Kevin Freaking Durant. You have to trade good players, not trash, AND picks. Ishbia or JJ pulled the trigger on the trade. You were NEVER going to get him for cheap. It's like saying you want an exotic sports car, but want to only pay Kia Rio prices for it. So from the other side of the forum, we feel the we paid too much people are not being realistic. I hope you can understand the distinction I'm making.

I could have walked away from the Durant trade. Apparently you couldn't. That's the difference.

If the Suns knew how to draft, first round picks are valuable. So are second round picks especially in trades.
 
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Mainstreet

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Some final stats.

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Covert Rain

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Vogel sucks. I will say it again he sucks. This team should be much better with Durant and Booker. Durant is playing out of his mind this season. Booker is playing well and upping his assists while playing on both ends. I watched this on delay and the offense is so basic I can’t stand it. Vogel has done nothing defensively scheme wise.
 

Covert Rain

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The answer is so simple. Then don't trade for Durant. It was a desperation trade when there was no desperation.

A number of posters didn't like the trade including myself.
Disagree. It wasn’t a desperation trade. It was an all in trade because the team was regressing ever since the finals appearance. Our franchise 1st round pick was a massive miss. The second best player on the team was an often injured guy we couldn’t count on. Our coach seemingly couldn’t make adjustments. The bench was getting worse every year. We were never getting back there as built and seemingly getting worse in almost every single way. The new owner came in here saying we will do whatever we can to put a winner on the floor. It’s not working. Before wasn’t working either. Drafting is a crapshoot and you are in win now mode with Booker. Not draft a bunch of guys and hope they develop in a few years down the road with Booker.

If you are going to do that you might as well have traded him and stocked up on assets while you were at it and start over. Maybe we should have. I will always back up the Suns going all in because 50+ years of doing it the other way hasn’t worked. It sucks it’s not working but at least they tried something different.
 
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Phrazbit

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I was talking about the 4 picks everyone is moaning about.

The picks at the back end of that deal are likely to be very very juicy. I'd be surprised if we don't send off 2 or 3 picks in the top 10 over the course of this.
 

Raindog

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The picks at the back end of that deal are likely to be very very juicy. I'd be surprised if we don't send off 2 or 3 picks in the top 10 over the course of this.
Maybe, maybe not. The Suns could potentially be out from under Durant and Beal's contracts by that point and possibly reloaded with other (younger/better) talent. Quite possibly, Booker could even be gone by then.

It's by no means a sure thing that it's a better situation, but if Ishbia is willing to spend money, who knows. But yeah, we won't be doing it building through the draft.
 

Phrazbit

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That middling team was going nowhere fast. The romanticizing of the team that took the biggest dump on its Home Court LITERALLY in the NBA History and then came back the next year and were hovering around .500 continues to be high comedy to me. That team was staring a purgatory.

Unfortunately, this one could be in hell.

That team was a helluva lot better than this stain of a team, and they had all kinds of options going forward to improve their situation.

And I don't think anyone has said that they should have sat back and changed nothing (although, that stunningly would have been a better route). We needed to make changes, but gutting the team for a 35 year old was crazy.

And his age isn't even a factor into the suck right now... besides that he seems a step slow and his ball handling comes off like he is drunk sometimes.
 
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Phrazbit

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Maybe, maybe not. The Suns could potentially be out from under Durant and Beal's contracts by that point and possibly reloaded with other (younger/better) talent. Quite possibly, Booker could even be gone by then.

It's by no means a sure thing that it's a better situation, but if Ishbia is willing to spend money, who knows. But yeah, we won't be doing it building through the draft.

We certainly won't be paying either Durant or Beal in another 4-5 years, but bringing in high end talent is going to be pretty much impossible outside of free agency, and that doesn't happen often.

We're going to have to hope that Booker maintains his allure as a star teammate and Ishbia creates an image as a great owner (despite this fiasco).

In the short term:

We can pray Beal gets back, stays back and things improve.

We can fire the coach, and hope this is all because Vogel is incompetent.

We can hope that we find better fitting parts off the scrap heap next summer. This is probably our most realistic path. I think mid-level contracts are going to be harder and harder for role players to get with the new CBA so we there might be some quality players available for cheap. We certainly can't do much worse when it comes to defensive bigs and point guard options.

Or, we can hope someone else is as dumb as we were last Spring, and that supposed offer that could have competed with our ransom is out there, dump Durant for a large return and let him drag someone else into the abyss. But that probably also leads to Booker wanting out, so even it by some miracle a huge deal for Durant presented itself, it would trigger a total tear down while not controlling our own draft.
 

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Uzubuike had a nice game tonight, which makes you wonder why he hasn't been seeing more minutes before, given all our problems with rebounding and other general issues in the low post.

My guess is he'll go back to being buried on the bench after Nurkic gets back... and it will be yet another thing to make you wonder what the hell Vogel is thinking.
 

Phrazbit

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Uzubuike had a nice game tonight, which makes you wonder why he hasn't been seeing more minutes before, given all our problems with rebounding and other general issues in the low post.

My guess is he'll go back to being buried on the bench after Nurkic gets back... and it will be yet another thing to make you wonder what the hell Vogel is thinking.

He fouled like crazy but at least there was hustle and urgency.
 

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He fouled like crazy but at least there was hustle and urgency.
Don’t even care I would play him and let him use all 6 fouls can’t save them up? He should be backing up Nurk imo, Eubanks has been a huge disappointment I don’t care if he has energy if it translates to nothing or trying to layup around the rim and bricking it! Kinda shocked KBD didn’t get anytime to tonight considering we played everyone else? Weird? Vogel is quickly losing this team if he hasn’t already!
 

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Eubanks was no-contest against Sabonis.... Drew > 14 minutes, 2 pts ,, 2 rebounds. Next man up.

The Kings got into the heads of the Suns. Durant, 7 turnovers. Booker, missing several free-throws.

Hope Matt I. brings his sons to the game Monday against Dallas. Another L in the standings?
 

taz02

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I can't imagine Booker being thrilled with another 2-3 season rebuilding process.

Of course anything can happen but I think we have this season and next to win with this group. If that fails Booker is likely to be gone. He will likely want out, and we'll need his trade value to jumpstart the new build.
 
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Disagree. It wasn’t a desperation trade. It was an all in trade because the team was regressing ever since the finals appearance. Our franchise 1st round pick was a massive miss. The second best player on the team was an often injured guy we couldn’t count on. Our coach seemingly couldn’t make adjustments. The bench was getting worse every year. We were never getting back there as built and seemingly getting worse in almost every single way. The new owner came in here saying we will do whatever we can to put a winner on the floor. It’s not working. Before wasn’t working either. Drafting is a crapshoot and you are in win now mode with Booker. Not draft a bunch of guys and hope they develop in a few years down the road with Booker.

If you are going to do that you might as well have traded him and stocked up on assets while you were at it and start over. Maybe we should have. I will always back up the Suns going all in because 50+ years of doing it the other way hasn’t worked. It sucks it’s not working but at least they tried something different.
I had concerns too, which I expressed here. KD is a great player and there was never, ever a doubt about that. The concerns were two: 1) Did we lose so much in defense that we couldn't make it up, and 2) what did we do to address the loss of Paul in the scheme of the trade? We had already lost a solid defender in Crowder, and a great shot blocker in McGhee. I think we are paying a big price for those losses.

Currently we have a car made up of parts of a Ferrari, a Lamborghini, and a Porsche. But they aren't one car. Booker is NOT a point guard, and that experiment needs to end. Nurk is a very good defensive rebounder, and I don't care about his O, but the team still doesn't know what to do with him. It is possible that a good PG could make the team gel, but it's also entirely possible that by trading away Bridges and Johnson and not suitably replacing Paul, this team will regress.
 
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Don’t even care I would play him and let him use all 6 fouls can’t save them up? He should be backing up Nurk imo, Eubanks has been a huge disappointment I don’t care if he has energy if it translates to nothing or trying to layup around the rim and bricking it! Kinda shocked KBD didn’t get anytime to tonight considering we played everyone else? Weird? Vogel is quickly losing this team if he hasn’t already!
Yep. Agree. NEITHER center, though, has been effectively integrated into the O like Ayton was in the season we got to the finals. (After that, once they took away CP3's lobs, Ayton became nearly a non-factor).
 

Yuma

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Disagree. It wasn’t a desperation trade. It was an all in trade because the team was regressing ever since the finals appearance. Our franchise 1st round pick was a massive miss. The second best player on the team was an often injured guy we couldn’t count on. Our coach seemingly couldn’t make adjustments. The bench was getting worse every year. We were never getting back there as built and seemingly getting worse in almost every single way. The new owner came in here saying we will do whatever we can to put a winner on the floor. It’s not working. Before wasn’t working either. Drafting is a crapshoot and you are in win now mode with Booker. Not draft a bunch of guys and hope they develop in a few years down the road with Booker.

If you are going to do that you might as well have traded him and stocked up on assets while you were at it and start over. Maybe we should have. I will always back up the Suns going all in because 50+ years of doing it the other way hasn’t worked. It sucks it’s not working but at least they tried something different.
CP3 was cooked. They talked about it constantly on local media here. The thinking was we were not picking up his option year and were just going to let him walk. Ayton, almost EVRYONE in the Valley had grown weary of him. People look at Cam and Bridges and pine for the old days, but we had REAL problems on this team. The coach/GM refused to let Crowder play, even when we got down to 10 day contracts to make a roster because of injuries. That team was NOT going back to the Finals. I"t was dysfunctional before Ishbia got control.

Overall the talent is better now on this team. We can argue that. The problem is either the parts don't fit together right, or the schemes used for the players are wrong, or the players have tuned out. Or possibly all three of those things.

The question now is what to do about it to save the season and seasons going forward. We can argue the why of what happened ALL DAY LONG. It is what it is now. The REAL debate is what to do now, not what to do about things that already happened and we can't do anything about!
 

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I could have walked away from the Durant trade. Apparently you couldn't. That's the difference.

If the Suns knew how to draft, first round picks are valuable. So are second round picks especially in trades.
No that's NOT the difference. I could go without him being traded here. The difference is I am willing to embrace the trade once it had been made. Clearly you don't.

I am not ripping you. I just want to restate what the real difference is. We can't go back in time and NOT make the trade. How is Durant best used now? With the pieces we have, why are the coaches clearly having problems with winning with this squad?
 

FB94

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In my novice basketball opinion I would like to see a true PG who can move the ball, break down first line of defense and facilitate easier opportunities for others instead of the current one on one dribble fest we have now. Secondly this team needs an infusion of toughness and nastiness on defense. Playing defense is a mindset and you have to want to do it, right now we’ve lost our minds. I’m old school, if we give up easy basket after basket maybe knock someone’s dick in the dirt. We have a bunch of look like Tarzan play like Jane on defense.
 

AzStevenCal

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A lot of us wanted JJ fired over Monty or with Monty. JJ's drafting wouldn't be an issue. Some who like JJ excuse his drafting because Server was meddling. No more Sarver. We're also adding a G-League team next year which will help develop draft picks.

Lots to discuss even if JJ sucks at drafting. Also those picks could have been traded for otners, not all at once for an aging star.
I think there's been maybe one pro JJ voice but this sentence seems somewhat directed at me. I am not pro JJ at all. I lack knowledge. IMO, so does everyone else here, the ones who are sure he's the problem and any that are sure he's not the problem.
 

Yuma

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In my novice basketball opinion I would like to see a true PG who can move the ball, break down first line of defense and facilitate easier opportunities for others instead of the current one on one dribble fest we have now. Secondly this team needs an infusion of toughness and nastiness on defense. Playing defense is a mindset and you have to want to do it, right now we’ve lost our minds. I’m old school, if we give up easy basket after basket maybe knock someone’s dick in the dirt. We have a bunch of look like Tarzan play like Jane on defense.
You could see when Azubuike hard fouled Sabots, for a few minutes it slowed their slam dunk line going into the basket. No one else made them fear going inside. Nurk doesn't instill fear, and he is not a great defender, but we can all see based on last night, we suck clogging the middle of the lane when he's out. What little inside presence we have, is with him. Maybe Azubuike. Maybe.
 

AzStevenCal

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I can't imagine Booker being thrilled with another 2-3 season rebuilding process.

Of course anything can happen but I think we have this season and next to win with this group. If that fails Booker is likely to be gone. He will likely want out, and we'll need his trade value to jumpstart the new build.
I thought we had this year and next to win it all. Now, I don't see any way that happens. IMO at some point over the next 2 seasons we will have to start selling everything we have of value. We'll need to open up cap space, use it to help facilitate trades for other teams and slowly build up a treasure chest of draft picks.

My head tells me it's going to be a decade long process and that we will be rock bottom for most of those years. However, I would have said the exact same thing about New Jersey after they made those horrible ring-chasing decisions and here they are, a decent roster and enough extra picks to make a splash in the next couple of years.
 

Yuma

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In my novice basketball opinion I would like to see a true PG who can move the ball, break down first line of defense and facilitate easier opportunities for others instead of the current one on one dribble fest we have now. Secondly this team needs an infusion of toughness and nastiness on defense. Playing defense is a mindset and you have to want to do it, right now we’ve lost our minds. I’m old school, if we give up easy basket after basket maybe knock someone’s dick in the dirt. We have a bunch of look like Tarzan play like Jane on defense.
Yeah, PG would be good. A REAL PF to play alongside Nurk with the big three, or big two and a PG, would be great, too. I think we can only get one. Big teams hurt us without another big, and our offense is stagnant without a PG. So we have to pick which we want.
 
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Mainstreet

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Disagree. It wasn’t a desperation trade. It was an all in trade because the team was regressing ever since the finals appearance. Our franchise 1st round pick was a massive miss. The second best player on the team was an often injured guy we couldn’t count on. Our coach seemingly couldn’t make adjustments. The bench was getting worse every year. We were never getting back there as built and seemingly getting worse in almost every single way. The new owner came in here saying we will do whatever we can to put a winner on the floor. It’s not working. Before wasn’t working either. Drafting is a crapshoot and you are in win now mode with Booker. Not draft a bunch of guys and hope they develop in a few years down the road with Booker.

If you are going to do that you might as well have traded him and stocked up on assets while you were at it and start over. Maybe we should have. I will always back up the Suns going all in because 50+ years of doing it the other way hasn’t worked. It sucks it’s not working but at least they tried something different.

I don't know who you are talking about when you said, "you might as well have traded him."

If you are talking about Devin Booker, the Suns played well without Kevin Durant less the postseason collapses.

They were indeed a problem and needed to be fixed.

Who is to say the Durant trade was the only move that could have helped the team. The Suns way overpaid for him. And what is his value now?

It would have been nice to find out what the problem was before the Suns team literally blew up the team since last season's trade deadline.

Actually, the situation is so bad with the Suns now, the new owner and GM may have created a situation where Booker does want out.
 
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Mainstreet

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No that's NOT the difference. I could go without him being traded here. The difference is I am willing to embrace the trade once it had been made. Clearly you don't.

I am not ripping you. I just want to restate what the real difference is. We can't go back in time and NOT make the trade. How is Durant best used now? With the pieces we have, why are the coaches clearly having problems with winning with this squad?

You are moving the boundaries.

I would gladly have embraced the trade for Durant if the Suns hadn't given up their future to do so.

Kevin Durant the player I like, just not at the price paid. The Nets fleeced the Suns in that trade.
 
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