Suns @ Kings Friday game thread 12-22-2023

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Mainstreet

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Well, the Suns are catching the attention of the national media.

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AzStevenCal

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Well, the Suns are catching the attention of the national media.

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Kendrick Perkins, where uninformed opinions go to live. It would be nice though if for just once, he actually knew what he was talking about. If this is simply the result of KD and Booker "tappin out on Vogel" like he said, we can have this mess cleaned up in no time if Ish is willing to eat a contract. And I'm confident Ish would indeed eat that contract if he thought it would make a big difference.
 

Cheesebeef

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I don't know who you are talking about when you said, "you might as well have traded him."

If you are talking about Devin Booker, the Suns played well without Kevin Durant less the postseason collapses.
LOL… oh, less those pesky little postseason collapses.
 

taz02

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I thought we had this year and next to win it all. Now, I don't see any way that happens. IMO at some point over the next 2 seasons we will have to start selling everything we have of value. We'll need to open up cap space, use it to help facilitate trades for other teams and slowly build up a treasure chest of draft picks.

My head tells me it's going to be a decade long process and that we will be rock bottom for most of those years. However, I would have said the exact same thing about New Jersey after they made those horrible ring-chasing decisions and here they are, a decent roster and enough extra picks to make a splash in the next couple of years.

Yep I agree. Though a wealthy owner willing to spend can change things pretty quick. Hopefully we don't have to stomach another decade of mediocracy.
 

Covert Rain

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I don't know who you are talking about when you said, "you might as well have traded him."

If you are talking about Devin Booker, the Suns played well without Kevin Durant less the postseason collapses.

They were indeed a problem and needed to be fixed.

Who is to say the Durant trade was the only move that could have helped the team. The Suns way overpaid for him. And what is his value now?

It would have been nice to find out what the problem was before the Suns team literally blew up the team since last season's trade deadline.

Actually, the situation is so bad with the Suns now, the new owner and GM may have created a situation where Booker does want out.
In other words, if you were going to rely on the crapshoot that is the draft and hope in a few years' time those guys could actually contribute to help Booker there isn't a point. With Book we are in win now mode. Book wants to win now. He isn't going to wait around and wait for rooks to develop. In terms of Durant, who is to say ANY other move was available? It took a special circumstance of a Superstar forcing his way out and identifying the Suns to even get Durant. What other Superstar was available under those circumstances? Also, we didn't need to wait to find out the problems with the Suns. The bench was a problem. Ayton was a problem. The coach was a problem. The team regressing was a problem. CP3 was a problem. How much more did we need to know? If we did nothing? Booker was going to want out anyway.
 

AzStevenCal

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Yep I agree. Though a wealthy owner willing to spend can change things pretty quick. Hopefully we don't have to stomach another decade of mediocracy.
Yeah, I think Ishbia has made some mistakes but they are mistakes made in an effort to make us better. So we have that on our side at least.
 

Hoop Head

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In other words, if you were going to rely on the crapshoot that is the draft and hope in a few years' time those guys could actually contribute to help Booker there isn't a point. With Book we are in win now mode. Book wants to win now. He isn't going to wait around and wait for rooks to develop. In terms of Durant, who is to say ANY other move was available? It took a special circumstance of a Superstar forcing his way out and identifying the Suns to even get Durant. What other Superstar was available under those circumstances? Also, we didn't need to wait to find out the problems with the Suns. The bench was a problem. Ayton was a problem. The coach was a problem. The team regressing was a problem. CP3 was a problem. How much more did we need to know? If we did nothing? Booker was going to want out anyway.

We didn't need to make a move when we did. Would have been nice to have a warchest of assets when Lillard hit the market after the season. Not like trading for KD really helped us last season. So we sit tight and go into the off-season and see who is available. Lillard could have replaced CP3 much better and look what he cost, we helped Milwaukee land him. We definitely could have added some picks and brought him here. Portland actually wanted Ayton so that means we don't trade off both twins. There's your superstar.
 

Covert Rain

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We didn't need to make a move when we did. Would have been nice to have a warchest of assets when Lillard hit the market after the season. Not like trading for KD really helped us last season. So we sit tight and go into the off-season and see who is available. Lillard could have replaced CP3 much better and look what he cost, we helped Milwaukee land him. We definitely could have added some picks and brought him here. Portland actually wanted Ayton so that means we don't trade off both twins. There's your superstar.
I can just throw names out there too. Lillard resisted being traded to the vast majority of every destination up until the last minute he was moved. He was steadfast about not leaving Portland. It wasn't the first time either. That doesn't mean it was remotely feasible. So, no that isn't giving me a name. There was no other superstar publicly pining to come here. In terms of "needing to make a move"? There is no right time to trade for a Superstar. They don't come cheap. Those opportunities almost never materialize for most teams.

Besides having Durant on this team the way he is playing this year isn't remotely the issue. Not having the picks we traded doesn't mean it would translate into anything that would help Book now.
 
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Hoop Head

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I can just throw names out there too. Lillard resisted being traded to the vast majority of every destination up until the last minute he was moved. He was steadfast about not leaving Portland. It wasn't the first time either. That doesn't mean it was remotely feasible. So, no that isn't giving me a name. There was no other superstar publicly pining to come here. In terms of "needing to make a move"? There is no right time to trade for a Superstar. They don't come cheap. Those opportunities almost never materialize for most teams.

Besides having Durant on this team the way he is playing this year isn't remotely the issue.

"Give me a name of a star who was available? No not that one!"

BTW, Milwaukee was never on Lillard's list of preferred teams. His list consisted of Miami and Miami. That's it. Portland make it clear they weren't worried about trading him where he wanted so much as approving of the return they received. He didn't have a no trade clause and could have been sent anywhere.
 

Covert Rain

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"Give me a name of a star who was available? No not that one!"

BTW, Milwaukee was never on Lillard's list of preferred teams. His list consisted of Miami and Miami. That's it. Portland make it clear they weren't worried about trading him where he wanted so much as approving of the return they received. He didn't have a no trade clause and could have been sent anywhere.
Piss poor attempt at manipulating what I said. My exact words were "In terms of Durant, who is to say ANY other move was available?" and "it took a special circumstance of a Superstar forcing his way out and identifying the Suns to even get Durant. What other Superstar was available under those circumstances?" That's not remotely close to your statement above. Great gymnastics though. Every team and a ton of fans on every team have tradegasms every year about guys that will never end up with their teams. Use the search button in this forum. That is the very definition of throwing names out there.

Also, if you think Lillard didn't have a say you have not been paying attention. They might not always go to the top team on their list, but he was never going to get traded to Detroit either. Not a chance.
 
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Cheesebeef

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You are moving the boundaries.

I would gladly have embraced the trade for Durant if the Suns hadn't given up their future to do so.
It’s too bad
I can just throw names out there too. Lillard resisted being traded to the vast majority of every destination up until the last minute he was moved. He was steadfast about not leaving Portland. It wasn't the first time either. That doesn't mean it was remotely feasible. So, no that isn't giving me a name. There was no other superstar publicly pining to come here. In terms of "needing to make a move"? There is no right time to trade for a Superstar. They don't come cheap. Those opportunities almost never materialize for most teams.

Besides having Durant on this team the way he is playing this year isn't remotely the issue. Not having the picks we traded doesn't mean it would translate into anything that would help Book now.
in addition to that, Ayton was the EXTRA piece that made that deal happen. The biggest/most important name was Jrue Holiday. Which means we probably would have had to give up someone at that level WITH Ayton and that guy STILL would have been Bridges. So, we'd probably have to give up Bridges, Ayton and picks and be left with... Lillard, Booker, Cam Johnson and... what else exactly?
 

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from what I remember, we didn't really pursue him hard at all. Or at least that's what Gambo was reporting at the time, IIRC.

I was calling for Nurse from the middle of the season.
You and me both. We had discussed nurse long prior to Monty’s dismissal.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Not losing because of KD though that’s a very simplistic thing you keep saying! Losing because playing trash D and no one is hitting 3s which you absolutely have to have to win in today’s game! Look around the league the scores you don’t shoot 3s well you lose period and. We are in a deep funk no one can hit a damn 3! Only 5 made threes again actually shot a worse percentage than last game which was the worst of the season lol! Just abysmal office everyone afraid to shoot or it’s the BOOK or KD show. GA passed on so many threes tonight no one has confidence to put them up, did EG even shoot any 3s if so it can’t be many I don’t recall seeing him hit any for sure!
Gordon was a complete no show.
 

95pro

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Gordon was a complete no show.

Just wish we could stop starting the guy. He’s off the bench material, where if he catches fire keep letting him shoot. If he’s pooh sit him for the rest of the half. Then if tries to drive the ball, bench him too.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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How do you know the Grizzlies will not surpass the Suns now that Morant is back?
They could. But we will get beal back at some point too. Even if they are better they have to make up 6 games to be so. The likelihood that they’re a LOT further back in the draft isn’t highly likely if it even happens.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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The picks at the back end of that deal are likely to be very very juicy. I'd be surprised if we don't send off 2 or 3 picks in the top 10 over the course of this.
If I’m right, both KD and Beal (and like everyone but book) will be off our salary cap by then, right? If book remains an attractive and effective recruiter (in what should be his prime) we could remain the destination for either disgruntled stars or free agents. So your fear isn’t a given.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Maybe, maybe not. The Suns could potentially be out from under Durant and Beal's contracts by that point and possibly reloaded with other (younger/better) talent. Quite possibly, Booker could even be gone by then.

It's by no means a sure thing that it's a better situation, but if Ishbia is willing to spend money, who knows. But yeah, we won't be doing it building through the draft.
Borg
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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.

And his age isn't even a factor into the suck right now... besides that he seems a step slow and his ball handling comes off like he is drunk sometimes.
You’d think Durant wasn’t having one of his best statistical years in your eyes.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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We certainly won't be paying either Durant or Beal in another 4-5 years, but bringing in high end talent is going to be pretty much impossible outside of free agency, and that doesn't happen often.

We're going to have to hope that Booker maintains his allure as a star teammate and Ishbia creates an image as a great owner (despite this fiasco).

In the short term:

We can pray Beal gets back, stays back and things improve.

We can fire the coach, and hope this is all because Vogel is incompetent.

We can hope that we find better fitting parts off the scrap heap next summer. This is probably our most realistic path. I think mid-level contracts are going to be harder and harder for role players to get with the new CBA so we there might be some quality players available for cheap. We certainly can't do much worse when it comes to defensive bigs and point guard options.

Or, we can hope someone else is as dumb as we were last Spring, and that supposed offer that could have competed with our ransom is out there, dump Durant for a large return and let him drag someone else into the abyss. But that probably also leads to Booker wanting out, so even it by some miracle a huge deal for Durant presented itself, it would trigger a total tear down while not controlling our own draft.
So this is wrong. We can still trade future draft picks for disgruntled stars. Every year we get another future pick we can trade or swap. It’s like in the nfl where teams like the saints keep mortgaging the future for today with their salary cap. If you do it forever you never really pay the piper if you’re successful attracting the disgruntled stars and free agents. Just doesn’t tend to be as exciting as hitting in draft picks.
 

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You’d think Durant wasn’t having one of his best statistical years in your eyes.

Yeah, he is getting his points through slow, methodical ISO plays. He is also a turnover machine and he just vanishes in the 4th quarter.

I mean... you've been watching these games. Does this seem like a season where Durant is some unstoppable mega star?

So this is wrong. We can still trade future draft picks for disgruntled stars. Every year we get another future pick we can trade or swap. It’s like in the nfl where teams like the saints keep mortgaging the future for today with their salary cap. If you do it forever you never really pay the piper if you’re successful attracting the disgruntled stars and free agents. Just doesn’t tend to be as exciting as hitting in draft picks.

Outside of during the draft itself, we cannot trade any future 1st round picks until 2031. And as long as we are over the cap, we also have to send out salary equal to what we are bringing back, so working out any trade for a "star" level player is going to be virtually impossible.

Furthermore, all of our first round picks through 2030 are leveraged through multiple pick swap options.
 

Yuma

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We didn't need to make a move when we did. Would have been nice to have a warchest of assets when Lillard hit the market after the season. Not like trading for KD really helped us last season. So we sit tight and go into the off-season and see who is available. Lillard could have replaced CP3 much better and look what he cost, we helped Milwaukee land him. We definitely could have added some picks and brought him here. Portland actually wanted Ayton so that means we don't trade off both twins. There's your superstar.
EXCEPT, Lillard himself kept saying he was OK with staying. In interviews post trade, Lillard said it took him time to mentally be OK with starting over elsewhere. When we were looking, Lillard was assumed to be staying put and off the market.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Yeah, he is getting his points through slow, methodical ISO plays. He is also a turnover machine and he just vanishes in the 4th quarter.

I mean... you've been watching these games. Does this seem like a season where Durant is some unstoppable mega star?



Outside of during the draft itself, we cannot trade any future 1st round picks until 2031. And as long as we are over the cap, we also have to send out salary equal to what we are bringing back, so working out any trade for a "star" level player is going to be virtually impossible.

Furthermore, all of our first round picks through 2030 are leveraged through multiple pick swap options.
Did nash look like nash under terry porter?

Also I very clearly indicated post Durant and beal contracts so we will be mega-under the cap and have future draft picks. We were talking about that timeframe.
 

Phrazbit

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Did nash look like nash under terry porter?

Also I very clearly indicated post Durant and beal contracts so we will be mega-under the cap and have future draft picks. We were talking about that timeframe.

Porter had Nash playing a style that obvious didn't suit him, while this is the style Durant has always played.

I'm fine with firing Vogel because we don't really have any other options to try and the lack of any apparent system on either end is mystifying, but I don't know how a new coach fixes the many problems with this roster.
 
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In other words, if you were going to rely on the crapshoot that is the draft and hope in a few years' time those guys could actually contribute to help Booker there isn't a point. With Book we are in win now mode. Book wants to win now. He isn't going to wait around and wait for rooks to develop. In terms of Durant, who is to say ANY other move was available? It took a special circumstance of a Superstar forcing his way out and identifying the Suns to even get Durant. What other Superstar was available under those circumstances? Also, we didn't need to wait to find out the problems with the Suns. The bench was a problem. Ayton was a problem. The coach was a problem. The team regressing was a problem. CP3 was a problem. How much more did we need to know? If we did nothing? Booker was going to want out anyway.

Draft picks can be used in trade as well.

There were plenty of opportunities for the Suns to improve their team via trade last season and this season. They had all their draft picks prior to the Durant trade and expiring contracts as well. There were plenty of other avenues to improve the team.
Look what the Lakers did last season with some minor tweaks to their roster.

The Suns could have easily improved their team at point guard and FC if they had not chosen to slide all their chips to the center of the table.

Now you are proposing Booker may have wanted out without the Durant trade. This may well prove to be a self-fulfilling prophecy the way the Suns are playing.
 
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