Suns @ Clippers Monday game thread 1-8-2024

Chaplin

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Going back to "Point Book" was a big fear of mine the first time I heard them mention it. Then he started lighting it up and I thought..well maybe the light has turned on. However, the offense simply doesn't look right with him being our floor general. There is absolutely no flow for huge chunks of the game.
I was open to Point Book as well. But now... He is the best shooting guard in the NBA for a reason. And Vogel and JJ have stripped him of that crown because of Point Book.
 

Bufalay

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Jones is the last guy to blame. Ishbia forced him into bad trades and completely tied his hands. He managed to fill out the roster with marginally competent guys willing to play for the minimum. What else is he supposed to do? The reason we aren't hearing anything is because he is, as you said, a figurehead. But anyone in that position would be a figurehead now, thanks to Ishbia calling all of the shots.



Personally, probably. In terms of leadership of a basketball team, there's no evidence at all to suggest that he's better. Both he and Sarver came in thinking that they knew a lot more than they did, and wreaking havoc from Day One. Time will tell who did more long-term damage.



Correct. A real GM would recognize that this team is circling the drain and summon the courage to trade Durant, but you're right that that's extremely unlikely. So what moves do the Suns have? This is what many of us have been saying since the off-season: That the big trades left the Suns with zero flexibility, so their only hope was to catch lightning in a bottle with this roster that has been assembled basically at random.



Do you think this team is coachable at all? It's two aging stars making insane money, the face of the franchise who is pouting because he's seeing his future go up in flames, and a bunch of castoffs who couldn't care less about the "Phoenix Suns" as an entity. Firing the coach would just reinforce the sentiment that the situation is hopeless.

The turnaround has to come from Booker and Durant. Otherwise it ain't happening.

They should trade Booker. He has higher value despite being a lesser player. The Suns might even become a good team if they made the right trade.
 

AzStevenCal

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They should trade Booker. He has higher value despite being a lesser player. The Suns might even become a good team if they made the right trade.
When they decide this gamble has failed, I believe they will have to trade Devin. It will be a dark day in Suns history but it's the only chance I see to avoid or at least minimize the even darker days sure to come if this big 3 doesn't succeed. I am 99% convinced that it has already failed but I can't blame them if they decide to wring every last drop of hope from it before they surrender to the stark reality of our future.
 

Bufalay

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When they decide this gamble has failed, I believe they will have to trade Devin. It will be a dark day in Suns history but it's the only chance I see to avoid or at least minimize the even darker days sure to come if this big 3 doesn't succeed. I am 99% convinced that it has already failed but I can't blame them if they decide to wring every last drop of hope from it before they surrender to the stark reality of our future.
They should probably get a new coach before reaching that conclusion. There are some signs that Vogel is doing a really bad job.
 

AzStevenCal

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They should probably get a new coach before reaching that conclusion. There are some signs that Vogel is doing a really bad job.
I don't believe it will fix our problems but I agree that, from a distance, a coaching change appears to be the best next move.
 

Suns_fan69

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I don't believe it will fix our problems but I agree that, from a distance, a coaching change appears to be the best next move.
That'd be more or less flushing the season away, I don't know who's out there that would be an upgrade. Doc Rivers? Budenholzer? D'Antoni? Kevin Young?
 

Hoop Head

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I have a feeling Grayson is being shopped. Whether he's dealt before, after, or in conjunction with Vogel being let go is anyone's guess. I'd like to keep him but we probably won't be able to afford him this off-season and he is one of the only trade pieces we have available.
 

AzStevenCal

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That'd be more or less flushing the season away, I don't know who's out there that would be an upgrade. Doc Rivers? Budenholzer? D'Antoni? Kevin Young?
I don't disagree and like I've said before, I doubt it fixes anything of note. We just don't have that many moves we can make and that's the least desperate one. When that one fails we're down to trading away Booker and KD.

As for coaches, I can't think of a midseason hire that's going to make a difference but I'd be fine with Doc for the short run or Bud for a more permanent hire. I see no value in Dantoni given our assets but since Young could well be the problem right now, I don't see what that does for us.
 

AzStevenCal

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I have a feeling Grayson is being shopped. Whether he's dealt before, after, or in conjunction with Vogel being let go is anyone's guess. I'd like to keep him but we probably won't be able to afford him this off-season and he is one of the only trade pieces we have available.
For me, KD, Booker and Grayson are untouchable until/unless we decide to blow it all up and then I'd trade them and anyone else with positive value.
 

BirdGangThing

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I think I'm just going to hope the team gets it together because I don't see anyone - Vogel included - going anywhere anytime soon - especially any of our starters and aside from them we're pretty much talking league minimum trade pieces - maybe Eubanks? idfk - but I do recall a winning streak and we're what? 5-3 in our last eight games? We're only 4 games back from home court in the playoffs - west is once again tight af

I think Vogel started getting comfortable - learned a couple things that worked and then Beal came back - so we're relearning all over again in some aspects

But then I look at the turnovers - if the entire team knows going in that turnovers are our biggest problem you'd think they'd stop making stupid freakin passes - it's truly maddening

And defense? While the rebounds have gotten better the defense has gotten worse - straight up pathetic - not just top shelf teams neither - this is why I think - unless we have a deep run in the playoffs Vogel is gone baby gone after one short year - and that's when we'd reshuffle the deck
 

taz02

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I don’t remember ever seeing so many 4th quarter meltdowns in such a short period. Its become predictable.

A talking head on the radio today theorized that the suns fight hard for every shot against the opposing defense while our opponent skips to the basket at will. By the fourth, the suns are exhausted, (KD and Booker) and our opponents are confident and energized.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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I don’t remember ever seeing so many 4th quarter meltdowns in such a short period. Its become predictable.

A talking head on the radio today theorized that the suns fight hard for every shot against the opposing defense while our opponent skips to the basket at will. By the fourth, the suns are exhausted, (KD and Booker) and our opponents are confident and energized.
I’ve been thinking this for awhile.
 

Bufalay

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That'd be more or less flushing the season away, I don't know who's out there that would be an upgrade. Doc Rivers? Budenholzer? D'Antoni? Kevin Young?
If they fire Vogel midseason, I think Fizdale is the obvious replacement.
 

Peter Sheldon

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I don’t remember ever seeing so many 4th quarter meltdowns in such a short period. Its become predictable.

A talking head on the radio today theorized that the suns fight hard for every shot against the opposing defense while our opponent skips to the basket at will. By the fourth, the suns are exhausted, (KD and Booker) and our opponents are confident and energized.
I think that is a spot-on theory, the proof of which is before us almost every game. Other teams get SOOOO many easy baskets. If they are also hitting open 3s and/or contested 3s in the 4th qtr, it's over. I think playing PG gets Booker extremely tired. His shots have not really been falling at his normal rate. His midrange shot used to be gold. Now I fully expect a miss.
 
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AzStevenCal

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I'm not sure playing big 3 at the same time helps the team. One is inevitably standing around watching. Maybe better to stagger them and get them all more rest going into 4th qtr?
They already stagger them. And it seems to me that we are at our best when all three of them are out there and at our worst when it's just one of them. I could be wrong so if someone has stats to show that's not accurate, I'd love to see them.
 

Chaplin

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They already stagger them. And it seems to me that we are at our best when all three of them are out there and at our worst when it's just one of them. I could be wrong so if someone has stats to show that's not accurate, I'd love to see them.
Statistically, our "normal" starting lineup as constructed today is one of the best offensive lineups in the entire NBA. We just don't use it very often. I think it's something like 70 minutes total so far this season.
 

taz02

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Statistically, our "normal" starting lineup as constructed today is one of the best offensive lineups in the entire NBA. We just don't use it very often. I think it's something like 70 minutes total so far this season.

70 minutes, WOW! Wouldn't have guessed it was that low.

I wonder what the point differential is during those 70 minutes.
 

AzStevenCal

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Statistically, our "normal" starting lineup as constructed today is one of the best offensive lineups in the entire NBA. We just don't use it very often. I think it's something like 70 minutes total so far this season.
Yeah that's what the eye test shows.
 

Peter Sheldon

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Statistically, our "normal" starting lineup as constructed today is one of the best offensive lineups in the entire NBA. We just don't use it very often. I think it's something like 70 minutes total so far this season.
While this post makes a lot of sense, in the second half of 4th quarters, we use this big 3 lineup lately and the results are disastrous. are they just tired?
 

95pro

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While this post makes a lot of sense, in the second half of 4th quarters, we use this big 3 lineup lately and the results are disastrous. are they just tired?

I haven't kept track anymore but is KD still playing the entire 3rd? Also, Beal may still be getting his legs under him.
 

Chaplin

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While this post makes a lot of sense, in the second half of 4th quarters, we use this big 3 lineup lately and the results are disastrous. are they just tired?
Certainly not for specifically the last half. We're only seeing them for maybe 3 minutes at the most at the end of games.

That also tells me the only time we see this lineup is in the beginning and the very end of the game. That's a rotational problem that Vogel is responsible for. How many minutes in a 48-minute game should that 5-man lineup be played? Right now it's like 8 or 9 minutes. That's not a lot in the scheme of things.
 
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