Suns are frontrunners to sign Bol Bol

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I firmly believe this mess is on Isiah Thomas. This utterly reeks of his style of GMing.

There are some things that keep happening under JJ's watch that I can't ignore. The lack of PG's we carry on the roster as well as the lack of PF's. We're overloaded with players who are like James Jones was as a player. Wings who can shoot but do little else.
 

Phrazbit

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There are some things that keep happening under JJ's watch that I can't ignore. The lack of PG's we carry on the roster as well as the lack of PF's. We're overloaded with players who are like James Jones was as a player. Wings who can shoot but do little else.

When he got the job was no point guard, we quickly got Rubio, then upgraded to CP3 with Payne (one of the better backups in the league), Jevon Carter was also there.

The point guard mess, the over confidence in that we had such firepower that we basically don't need a point guard... or an offensive system at all, that also lends me to think of Thomas.
 

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When he got the job was no point guard, we quickly got Rubio, then upgraded to CP3 with Payne (one of the better backups in the league), Jevon Carter was also there.

The point guard mess, the over confidence in that we had such firepower that we basically don't need a point guard... or an offensive system at all, that also lends me to think of Thomas.

It took a year to get Rubio. JJ was GM for Ayton's rookie year when we had Isaiah Canaan as the starting PG with Melton, Okobo, and later Tyler Johnson. Lots of Point Book. Melton was super raw then but was a favorite of Igor. We then traded him for Carter to unload Josh Jackson. That was a wasted year of development, even if we did get Jevon Carter. Melton > Carter. Blame McD for Ariza being our starting PF, that's fine, but we traded him and added no one. We went into the next year with Saric, no backup. Rookie Cam Johnson was a reach and not exactly projected to be a PF at that time. We did have Rubio but didn't add Payne until the bubble. Payne had a history with Monty also and reports were Monty wanted him. So I won't credit JJ for him.

We've seen this show with JJ too many times. He says he wants a roster built 3 deep at all 5 positions and he's never come close to fulfilling that. He barely gets us 2 PG's and 3 PF/C's.
 

Phrazbit

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It took a year to get Rubio. JJ was GM for Ayton's rookie year when we had Isaiah Canaan as the starting PG with Melton, Okobo, and later Tyler Johnson. Lots of Point Book. Melton was super raw then but was a favorite of Igor. We then traded him for Carter to unload Josh Jackson. That was a wasted year of development, even if we did get Jevon Carter. Melton > Carter. Blame McD for Ariza being our starting PF, that's fine, but we traded him and added no one. We went into the next year with Saric, no backup. Rookie Cam Johnson was a reach and not exactly projected to be a PF at that time. We did have Rubio but didn't add Payne until the bubble. Payne had a history with Monty also and reports were Monty wanted him. So I won't credit JJ for him.

We've seen this show with JJ too many times. He says he wants a roster built 3 deep at all 5 positions and he's never come close to fulfilling that. He barely gets us 2 PG's and 3 PF/C's.

He got the job days before the season started Ayton's rookie year. I'm not going to put the blame for that team's guard problems on him.

Here is what I know for sure...

We had a good roster and a lot of assets to work with (including total control of our draft future), then a guy with Isiah Thomas in his ear took over and we now have a grossly imbalanced roster, no cap space and no assets and won't see a decent pick for 9 years.

Impatience, chasing flash over substance and utterly insane dumping of draft picks are basically the trademarks of Isiah Thomas ran team.

We can fire JJ, but I suspect the colossal idiot who is mostly responsible for this mess will only gain influence.
 
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Mainstreet

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He got the job days before the season started Ayton's rookie year. I'm not going to put the blame for that team's guard problems on him.

Here is what I know for sure...

We had a good roster and a lot of assets to work with (including total control of our draft future), then a guy with Isiah Thomas in his ear took over and we now have a grossly imbalanced roster, no cap space and no assets and won't see a decent pick for 9 years.

Impatience, chasing flash over substance and utterly insane dumping of draft picks are basically the trademarks of Isiah Thomas ran team.

We can fire JJ, but I suspect the colossal idiot who is mostly responsible for this mess will only gain influence.

I'd like to see who is behind the curtain, like in the movie The Wizard of Oz.

James Jones lost a lot of credibility with me in the way he handled the 2020 draft and the Jae Crowder matter.

I think we are in agreement that the Suns shouldn't have done the Durant trade the way it was structured. I would have never given up Mikal Bridges in that trade.
 

AzStevenCal

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I'd like to see who is behind the curtain, like in the movie The Wizard of Oz.

James Jones lost a lot of credibility with me in the way he handled the 2020 draft and the Jae Crowder matter.

I think we are in agreement that the Suns shouldn't have done the Durant trade the way it was structured. I would have never given up Mikal Bridges in that trade.
I blame JJ for either dismantling our player development capabilies or allowing Sarver to do so. But I put 100% of the blame for the Crowder situation on Monty. Not because I know anything that goes on behind the scenes but because we've seen all the evidence we need to on Monty's relationship problems.
 
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Mainstreet

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I blame JJ for either dismantling our player development capabilies or allowing Sarver to do so. But I put 100% of the blame for the Crowder situation on Monty. Not because I know anything that goes on behind the scenes but because we've seen all the evidence we need to on Monty's relationship problems.

Still, James Jones could have traded Jae Crowder in a more timely fashion even there were irreconcilable differences with Monty.
 

AzStevenCal

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Still, James Jones could have traded Jae Crowder in a more timely fashion even there were irreconcilable differences with Monty.
I didn't hear about much interest in Jae Crowder, certainly nothing that would equal the value Crowder gave us when playing. I suspect JJ was always hoping that Monty would reconcile with Jae. Sure, JJ probably had enough power to override the Head Coach but keep in mind, you're talking about a Head Coach that was everyone's favorite (or close to it) when it came time for the silly annual awards.
 
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Mainstreet

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I didn't hear about much interest in Jae Crowder, certainly nothing that would equal the value Crowder gave us when playing. I suspect JJ was always hoping that Monty would reconcile with Jae. Sure, JJ probably had enough power to override the Head Coach but keep in mind, you're talking about a Head Coach that was everyone's favorite (or close to it) when it came time for the silly annual awards.

There was interest in Crowder but I think James Jones wanted more. That didn't turn out too well unless one includes it in the cost of doing business for Kevin Durant.

IMO, the bridge was burnt between Monty and Crowder.

Also, it's hard for me to accept the structure of the trade for Kevin Durant and trading Payne for virtually nothing.

Then there is the 2020 Draft and the failure to commit to Jalen Smith after he was drafted. I guess I should add Landry Shamet.

It all adds up.
 

AzStevenCal

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There was interest in Crowder but I think James Jones wanted more. That didn't turn out too well unless one includes it in the cost of doing business for Kevin Durant.

IMO, the bridge was burnt between Monty and Crowder.

Also, it's hard for me to accept the structure of the trade for Kevin Durant and trading Payne for virtually nothing.

Then there is the 2020 Draft and the failure to commit to Jalen Smith after he was drafted. I guess I should add Landry Shamet.

It all adds up.
Whether he should have been our pick or not, I blame Monty for Jalen Smith being misused and undeveloped. I'll add though that some of Smith being undeveloped is the direct result of us selling off our G League team which was either done by JJ or allowed to happen by JJ.

I also blame Monty for Landry Shamet. One of the jobs of the GM is to get the coach his kind of players and IMO that's what JJ did. I can't explain the 2020 draft. All said, I'd be fine with moving on from JJ but I have no confidence that our front office problems will disappear. I remain convinced that Isiah Thomas is running the show and can only hope that when Ish fires JJ, he also cuts the cord with Thomas.
 

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When he got the job was no point guard, we quickly got Rubio, then upgraded to CP3 with Payne (one of the better backups in the league), Jevon Carter was also there.

The point guard mess, the over confidence in that we had such firepower that we basically don't need a point guard... or an offensive system at all, that also lends me to think of Thomas.
No. Thomas loves pgs
 

Phrazbit

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No. Thomas loves pgs

The same Thomas proclaimed Bol Bol as this roster's best passer and ball handler.

He is an imbecile.

I don't think he has any guiding philosophy of roster moves besides "Flashy and short sighted".
 

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I'd like to see who is behind the curtain, like in the movie The Wizard of Oz.

James Jones lost a lot of credibility with me in the way he handled the 2020 draft and the Jae Crowder matter.

I think we are in agreement that the Suns shouldn't have done the Durant trade the way it was structured. I would have never given up Mikal Bridges in that trade.

I know you're dead set on Mikal not being part of the Durant deal but I would have been ok with his inclusion provided he was the only starter involved. Mikal, Shamet, and Crowder would have worked in terms of salary. Allowing the Nets to fleece us for 2 young starters and 4 picks was bad.

I'd also be curious to know how much Ayton was shopped and what sort of deals were rejected in his last 2 seasons here. If the answer is zero then JJ is a buffoon as the writing was on the wall that he needed to go. Ideally he would have been the centerpiece of a package that landed Durant here with Ayton going somewhere, that team giving up players for KD, and us adding salary to match and picks to sweeten the pot.

JJ as a GM is far too reactionary rather than proactive. It's fine to be reactionary once you have a championship roster but we didn't. The closest he came to addressing some issues was adding Javale to backup Ayton but we still needed size at PF in a Dario replacement that could play alongside Ayton/McGee because we didn't have the size to best Milwaukee's large frontcourt in a series. We also needed another ball handler but he ignored that. He appears to be one of the least proactive GM's in the league, never dealing with an issue until the last minute unless it's cutting someone loose like Tyson Chandler or Cam Payne. There was zero reason to rush those moves but he did, removing the possibility of improving the team by trading them for value.
 
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Mainstreet

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I know you're dead set on Mikal not being part of the Durant deal but I would have been ok with his inclusion provided he was the only starter involved. Mikal, Shamet, and Crowder would have worked in terms of salary. Allowing the Nets to fleece us for 2 young starters and 4 picks was bad.

I'd also be curious to know how much Ayton was shopped and what sort of deals were rejected in his last 2 seasons here. If the answer is zero then JJ is a buffoon as the writing was on the wall that he needed to go. Ideally he would have been the centerpiece of a package that landed Durant here with Ayton going somewhere, that team giving up players for KD, and us adding salary to match and picks to sweeten the pot.

JJ as a GM is far too reactionary rather than proactive. It's fine to be reactionary once you have a championship roster but we didn't. The closest he came to addressing some issues was adding Javale to backup Ayton but we still needed size at PF in a Dario replacement that could play alongside Ayton/McGee because we didn't have the size to best Milwaukee's large frontcourt in a series. We also needed another ball handler but he ignored that. He appears to be one of the least proactive GM's in the league, never dealing with an issue until the last minute unless it's cutting someone loose like Tyson Chandler or Cam Payne. There was zero reason to rush those moves but he did, removing the possibility of improving the team by trading them for value.

I was dead set against trading Mikal Bridges in the trade as it was structured. The Suns gave up entirely too much.

I may have been less critical of the trade if it were structured differently, but I still think Mikal should not have been included in any trade.

Yeah, I think James Jones trading for Chris Paul and trading down for Cam Johnson made him look better than he was.

There are other moves James Jones made I like but, there were some critical blunders as I view it as well.
 
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GatorAZ

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I know you're dead set on Mikal not being part of the Durant deal but I would have been ok with his inclusion provided he was the only starter involved. Mikal, Shamet, and Crowder would have worked in terms of salary. Allowing the Nets to fleece us for 2 young starters and 4 picks was bad.

I'd also be curious to know how much Ayton was shopped and what sort of deals were rejected in his last 2 seasons here. If the answer is zero then JJ is a buffoon as the writing was on the wall that he needed to go. Ideally he would have been the centerpiece of a package that landed Durant here with Ayton going somewhere, that team giving up players for KD, and us adding salary to match and picks to sweeten the pot.

JJ as a GM is far too reactionary rather than proactive. It's fine to be reactionary once you have a championship roster but we didn't. The closest he came to addressing some issues was adding Javale to backup Ayton but we still needed size at PF in a Dario replacement that could play alongside Ayton/McGee because we didn't have the size to best Milwaukee's large frontcourt in a series. We also needed another ball handler but he ignored that. He appears to be one of the least proactive GM's in the league, never dealing with an issue until the last minute unless it's cutting someone loose like Tyson Chandler or Cam Payne. There was zero reason to rush those moves but he did, removing the possibility of improving the team by trading them for value.

After the Dallas series where DA was completely useless vs a scrub frontcourt killed whatever value he had left. Then vs Denver you could say he unofficially checked out in b2b playoff runs. You saw the rumored packages before the draft with the likes of Tim Hardaway and David Bertans. Even Josh Green and Dwight Powell were considered off limits in a deal. The Blazers took his contract to match the outgoing salary between Dame and Nurk. Nobody wants him unless that team is saving three times as much money by acquiring him (Portland).
 

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years of blowing high picks is why we are here. The KD deal was desperation, swing for the fences because we didn't draft enough talent.
 

Phrazbit

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An entire team of Bol Bols.


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Yuma

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I was dead set against trading Mikal Bridges in the trade as it was structured. The Suns gave up entirely too much.

I may have been less critical of the trade if it were structured differently, but I still think Mikal should not have been included in any trade.

Yeah, I think James Jones trading for Chris Paul and trading down for Cam Johnson made him look better than he was.

There are other moves James Jones made I like but, there were some critical blunders as I view it as well.
Media leaks at the time kept indicating the deal had not been done earlier because Bridges wasn't part of the deal. Our new owner comes in and asks why we don't have KD. I'm sure he was told because we wanted Bridges. Someone form the outside, not vested like we are with Bridges as fans, you logically look at it and go, really, a guy on Bridges level not worth trading for a future HOF who may or may not be in his prime? Best guy available on the market? I know we all say we would have never traded Bridges, it was too high, etc. It doesn't make sense from the outside. Even the most jaded KD fan here, can't deny he's been balling out for us. Most of the criticism is he may not be healthy in the future. Basically that could be any player, like a Cam Johnson for example. Plus our franchise guy, Booker, wanted KD. His childhood favorite player. We don't want to give Booker what he wants?

I can't believe I keep getting sucked up in this debate all the time. :lol:
 
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Mainstreet

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Media leaks at the time kept indicating the deal had not been done earlier because Bridges wasn't part of the deal. Our new owner comes in and asks why we don't have KD. I'm sure he was told because we wanted Bridges. Someone form the outside, not vested like we are with Bridges as fans, you logically look at it and go, really, a guy on Bridges level not worth trading for a future HOF who may or may not be in his prime? Best guy available on the market? I know we all say we would have never traded Bridges, it was too high, etc. It doesn't make sense from the outside. Even the most jaded KD fan here, can't deny he's been balling out for us. Most of the criticism is he may not be healthy in the future. Basically that could be any player, like a Cam Johnson for example. Plus our franchise guy, Booker, wanted KD. His childhood favorite player. We don't want to give Booker what he wants?

I can't believe I keep getting sucked up in this debate all the time. :lol:

There is a reason Bridges wasn't included in the trade before even if the owner didn't recognize it.

Yeah, this topic has been beaten in the ground.
 

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Plus our franchise guy, Booker, wanted KD. His childhood favorite player. We don't want to give Booker what he wants?

Booker wanted KD but he clearly has a special bond with Bridges. Maybe he was one of the people who said that Bridges shouldn't be included. You're acting as if you have inside knowledge and you don't, no one here does. We can speculate all day long but we can only judge the deal based on what we got and we lost. KD is balling out for us but it hasn't resulted in more wins than Bridges and Cam Johnson produced and that wasn't the only cost. We're so deep into the luxury tax we can't do anything to improve the team easily and we have no picks to trade either. So who is to say what's better?
 

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Booker wanted KD but he clearly has a special bond with Bridges. Maybe he was one of the people who said that Bridges shouldn't be included. You're acting as if you have inside knowledge and you don't, no one here does. We can speculate all day long but we can only judge the deal based on what we got and we lost. KD is balling out for us but it hasn't resulted in more wins than Bridges and Cam Johnson produced and that wasn't the only cost. We're so deep into the luxury tax we can't do anything to improve the team easily and we have no picks to trade either. So who is to say what's better?
True, but bottom line is what happened happened. We can ONLY go by what these supposed leaks say is happening. Therefore, until someone comes up with something else through the media, etc, I am just rolling with what has been reported.

Someone on this forum made a good point that high end players don't necessarily win you more games in the regular season. However teams with the better players tend to advance further in the playoffs. I have heard this topic on local sports radio that has been quoted by other media people researching this topic.

The flip side is we were not deep into the luxury tax, but we started not achieving much in the playoffs. So management decided to shake things up.

It's cool. Your opinion may be right we won't win anything and we're foolish to go down this path. However, without inside knowledge of what is going on, maybe they made the only moves they could?
 

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There was interest in Crowder but I think James Jones wanted more. That didn't turn out too well unless one includes it in the cost of doing business for Kevin Durant.

IMO, the bridge was burnt between Monty and Crowder.

Also, it's hard for me to accept the structure of the trade for Kevin Durant and trading Payne for virtually nothing.

Then there is the 2020 Draft and the failure to commit to Jalen Smith after he was drafted. I guess I should add Landry Shamet.

It all adds up.
Whether Monty or JJ was more responsible for all the personnel bungles of the last few years is difficult to determine without being privy to the inner workings of the team. I expect both were equally culpable, either working in tandem or as one against the other, depending on the player involved.

One troubling issue that became very apparent with both of them was that both seem to place more value on whether they "like" a player on a personal basis than on whether said player is actually the most talented or useful option available.

To me, that indicates that each of their personal agendas and/or egos took precedence over trying to ensure the team has the best personnel available... which in no small part, has contributed to the roster issues they've had (and are currently having).
 
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Whether Monty or JJ was more responsible for all the personnel bungles of the last few years is difficult to determine without being privy to the inner workings of the team. I expect both were equally culpable, either in working tandem or as one against the other, depending on the player involved.

One troubling issue that became very apparent with both of them was that both seem to place more value on whether they "like" a player on a personal basis than on whether said player is actually the most talented or useful option available.

To me, that indicates that each of their personal agendas and/or egos took precedence over trying to ensure the team has the best personnel available... which in no small part, has contributed to the roster issues they've had (and are currently having).

I suspect the Suns had already made up their mind who they wanted to draft in 2020 and when he wasn't there, they didn't draft BPA.

They knew they were going to bring in Chris Paul.

I think Toppin or Avdija were their guys.
 

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I suspect the Suns had already made up their mind who they wanted to draft in 2020 and when he wasn't there, they didn't draft BPA.

They knew they were going to bring in Chris Paul.

I think Toppin or Avdija were their guys.

I don't know if Toppin was their guy or not. He was given away by the Knicks this last off-season and we had a trade exception that could have brought him in. He was dealt for 2nd round picks in 2028 and 2029. He's playing well in Indiana as well, who seems to end up with the Suns leftovers quite often, going back to the TJ Warren salary dump.
 
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Mainstreet

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I don't know if Toppin was their guy or not. He was given away by the Knicks this last off-season and we had a trade exception that could have brought him in. He was dealt for 2nd round picks in 2028 and 2029. He's playing well in Indiana as well, who seems to end up with the Suns leftovers quite often, going back to the TJ Warren salary dump.

I was guessing about Toppin but I heard rumors about Avdija possibly dropping to the Suns.
 
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