Shannon Brown - Starting Caliber?

jagu

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I know we've all had our moments with Brown. He started off the season like utter garbage but now he's coming into his own with the Suns offense. His confidence on the court is fun to watch and he is one of the few Suns who can create his own shot (Redd is the other guy).

Last 3 Games
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I've really warmed up to Brown and I hope he continues his confident play down the stretch. I don't mind him hogging now, he isn't an easy guard.
 

JCSunsfan

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He's playing differently now. Instead of pounding the ball and going one on one, he is playing off of Nash and slashing and shooting.
 

Folster

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Anybody think that Grant Hill's injury is a blessing in disguise. I've contended for a couple years now for all the positives on and off the court he brings, his presence has hindered the development of our wings. When, Brown was acquired I thought that we needed his athleticism in the starting line-up. Instead he had to come off the bench and deal with some pretty poor back-up point guard play early. Now that he has moved into the starting spot and is playing with Nash, we're seeing what many of us had hoped for when he was signed.
 

AzStevenCal

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Anybody think that Grant Hill's injury is a blessing in disguise. I've contended for a couple years now for all the positives on and off the court he brings, his presence has hindered the development of our wings. When, Brown was acquired I thought that we needed his athleticism in the starting line-up. Instead he had to come off the bench and deal with some pretty poor back-up point guard play early. Now that he has moved into the starting spot and is playing with Nash, we're seeing what many of us had hoped for when he was signed.

Every time I come to the conclusion that Hill hurts us more than he helps us, he turns in a strong offensive game along with his consistently solid (but overrated) defense. I don't remember the stats but I know it was the same way for him in Orlando. Even playing his best near the end of his Magic career, the team was usually better without him. He'd help us more coming off the bench but for whatever reason, he's always struggled in that role.

Steve
 

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Anybody think that Grant Hill's injury is a blessing in disguise. I've contended for a couple years now for all the positives on and off the court he brings, his presence has hindered the development of our wings. When, Brown was acquired I thought that we needed his athleticism in the starting line-up. Instead he had to come off the bench and deal with some pretty poor back-up point guard play early. Now that he has moved into the starting spot and is playing with Nash, we're seeing what many of us had hoped for when he was signed.

Brown is the prototypical Suns player. He can run and gun with the best of 'em! Not suggesting that's a bad thing. However, I'm still not sold on him being a starter... as I'm not sold on his consistency and his defense. However, I will say that he's been terrific over the past several weeks.
 

Folster

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Brown is the prototypical Suns player. He can run and gun with the best of 'em! Not suggesting that's a bad thing. However, I'm still not sold on him being a starter... as I'm not sold on his consistency and his defense. However, I will say that he's been terrific over the past several weeks.

He's definitely a starter on this current team.
 

Superbone

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Every time I come to the conclusion that Hill hurts us more than he helps us, he turns in a strong offensive game along with his consistently solid (but overrated) defense.

This I do not agree with in any way, shape, or form. Underrated if anything. Should be on the all-defensive team.
 

slinslin

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His shooting % will come back down again and people will call him out for being a chucker.

If we are going to be serious about being a playoff team next year around Nash I would rather have Ray Allen and Michael Redd plus possibly a rookie as the shooting guard rotation.
 

AzStevenCal

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This I do not agree with in any way, shape, or form. Underrated if anything. Should be on the all-defensive team.

Between this board and the stuff I hear from the Phoenix announcers, he's talked about as a great defender. Viewed from that perspective, I consider him overrated as a defender. In fact, I think we generally tend to overrate individual defenders on this team, especially if they can guard multiple positions. He's a pretty good defender but the annual "he should have been first team all defense" kind of comments are unwarranted, IMO. He'll have a few games in a row where he looks like one of the best in the league and then he'll get lit up for a few games. That's not superstar defense IMO.

Steve
 

Cheesebeef

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Between this board and the stuff I hear from the Phoenix announcers, he's talked about as a great defender. Viewed from that perspective, I consider him overrated as a defender. In fact, I think we generally tend to overrate individual defenders on this team, especially if they can guard multiple positions. He's a pretty good defender but the annual "he should have been first team all defense" kind of comments are unwarranted, IMO. He'll have a few games in a row where he looks like one of the best in the league and then he'll get lit up for a few games. That's not superstar defense IMO.

Steve

agreed.
 

Mainstreet

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Grant Hill is frequently called upon to guard the opposing team's best player. Considering such, I do not think Grant Hill is overrated as a defender.

Also, the Suns could have used him to guard Andre Miller in that recent loss to Denver.
 

Superbone

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Between this board and the stuff I hear from the Phoenix announcers, he's talked about as a great defender. Viewed from that perspective, I consider him overrated as a defender. In fact, I think we generally tend to overrate individual defenders on this team, especially if they can guard multiple positions. He's a pretty good defender but the annual "he should have been first team all defense" kind of comments are unwarranted, IMO. He'll have a few games in a row where he looks like one of the best in the league and then he'll get lit up for a few games. That's not superstar defense IMO.

Steve

We'll have to agree to disagree. Getting lit up by Kobe Bryant doesn't count against him. Nobody stops Kobe. Grant consistently minimizes our opponent's best player.
 

Superbone

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Speaking of the warrior known as Hill, he is returning to the lineup on Friday (read Coro over at AZCentral). Should Brown remain in the starting lineup?
 

sunsfan88

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If Hill is an overrated defender, the Raja Bell was also an overrated defender/

Back on topic, I think Brown should continue to start for now, a starting 5 with Brown in it is the best lineup for us as shown in my other thread.

However, I think we should still go after Eric Gordon/Courtney Lee and try to sign one of them to be our starting 2 guard. If not, then we can resign Brown to a reasonable price to become our starter at SG for next year.
 

Cheesebeef

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Grant Hill is frequently called upon to guard the opposing team's best player. Considering such, I do not think Grant Hill is overrated as a defender.

Also, the Suns could have used him to guard Andre Miller in that recent loss to Denver.

just because you're asked to defend a team's best player doesn't make you necessarily a great defender. it makes him the best defender on THIS team, but that's not saying all that much.
 

SirStefan32

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I don't think Hill's defense is overrated. He is one hell of a defender.

Back on topic though- I wouldn't get too excited about Brown. I think we might be seeing the Nash-effect here. Shannon Brown is a terrible decision-maker. Nash takes decision-making out of the picture, because HE makes all the decisions. All you have to do is wait. I'd like to see him play without Nash for a while before I'd support giving him a long-term contract.
 

AzStevenCal

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If Hill is an overrated defender, the Raja Bell was also an overrated defender/

Back on topic, I think Brown should continue to start for now, a starting 5 with Brown in it is the best lineup for us as shown in my other thread.

However, I think we should still go after Eric Gordon/Courtney Lee and try to sign one of them to be our starting 2 guard. If not, then we can resign Brown to a reasonable price to become our starter at SG for next year.

Actually, I think the Hill conversation is very much on topic. I'd rather see Brown in the starting lineup but if I really thought Hill was one of the league's elite defenders, it would come down to whether we should start Brown over Dudley. I think Brown pairs nicely with Duds but I'm not so sure I'd like to see Brown and Hill start together.

BTW, in case it's been missed, I'm not saying Hill is a bad defender. If you consider him a pretty good defensive player than I'm right there with you. If you consider him one of the top 5 or even one of the top 10 defenders, than I think you're overrating him.

Steve
 

Cheesebeef

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Actually, I think the Hill conversation is very much on topic. I'd rather see Brown in the starting lineup but if I really thought Hill was one of the league's elite defenders, it would come down to whether we should start Brown over Dudley. I think Brown pairs nicely with Duds but I'm not so sure I'd like to see Brown and Hill start together.

BTW, in case it's been missed, I'm not saying Hill is a bad defender. If you consider him a pretty good defensive player than I'm right there with you. If you consider him one of the top 5 or even one of the top 10 defenders, than I think you're overrating him.

Steve

agreed. I'll never understand why people make things so black and white here. i think hill's a pretty good defender and very versatile, but top 10? not so sure about that.
 

sunsfan88

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BTW, in case it's been missed, I'm not saying Hill is a bad defender. If you consider him a pretty good defensive player than I'm right there with you. If you consider him one of the top 5 or even one of the top 10 defenders, than I think you're overrating him.

Steve
He isn't a top 10 perimeter defender?

Numbers don't lie:

Andre Miller -

Grant Hill has owned Andre Miller ever since Game 2 of last year's Western Conference playoff series against the Trailblazers. It was Alvin Gentry that made the switch and assigned Hill to cover Miller after Miller torched the Suns for 31 points in a Game 1 victory. Miller quietly faded into the background as Hill's size and length kept him from penetrating as he had in Game 1, he struggled shooting the ball and couldn't find space against the then 37-year-old defender.

This year, the story is the same. In three meetings Grant held Miller to under his season average numbers for a few vital offensive statistics. In their first two matchups - Grant allowed Miller to only score 10 points in those contests, and limited his FGA's to well under his average mark all while forcing three turnovers from Miller as well in each game.

Derrick Rose -

The Suns have seen the Chicago Bulls and Derrick Rose only one time so far this year. It was a game where Derrick Rose put up 35 points while being guarded by Grant Hill, but he also played season high 50:19 minutes.

Despite having 35 points Rose was defended well by Hill as it took him 33 shot attempts to hit that number. He was held to 14-33 (.424) shooting and was just 1-5 from three. Oh yeah ,Hill put in 27 points of his own on 12-20 shooting.

Kevin Durant -

Kevin Durant is the pinnacle and definition of ‘elite scoring' in the NBA and we've seen Grant hold his own twice now this season against him and he dropped 30 points and 11 rebounds on KD's head too.

That was in their first meeting on December 19, 2010 Kevin Durant logged 43 minutes and put in 28 points but on an 8-19 (.421) shooting night where he nailed only 1-6 from three-point range. Playing man-to-man Grant was limiting Durant in his driving options and also did a terrific job denying Durant the ball early in the Thunder's offense all game long. But when the team switched from a man defense to a zone defense in the 4th quarter, Durant went off for 10 points.

Their second meeting on February 4 was yet another impressive defensive effort by Grant Hill. In this game Durant was 8-16, he did not take as many shots as he usually does and it was because of Hill's ball denial and aggressiveness on defense.

We'll see Hill take on Durant two more times this year and trust me, when you start to look for Grant Hill's defense as you're watching, it's very easy to find.

Monta Ellis -

Monta Ellis is the League's third leading scorer at the moment and three times we've seen Monta play against the Suns this year. In the first meeting, the Suns played predominately a zone defense and Monta Ellis went off for 38 points picking apart the defense and driving to the basket at will. But in the next two meeting it was a very different story.

The second time around Grant was given the assignment to guard Ellis and was extremely effective. Ellis jacked up 17 shots and only hit five, he still ended up scoring 21 points thanks to 13 trips to the line. For the game Ellis shot a very poor 29% from the field and visibly struggled to isolate and drive on Grant. Was it just an off shooting night for Monta? Maybe, because in Ellis' very next game, a win against the Denver Nuggets he drained a whopping 16-30 (.533) for 37 points and looked unstoppable.

But then what would explain the fact that the Warriors game after that was again against the Phoenix Suns and again it was Grant Hill on Monta Ellis. Ellis finished the game with just eight points on 4-13 (.308).

Blake Griffin:

When the Suns played the Clippers in December, Griffin had just 9 pts in the 2nd half when Hill started guarding him as prior to the 1st half when Blake put up 19 pts. Not to mention Hill was overmatched with Griffin's size.

In the chart below we see details of Hill's key defensive match-ups this season. Only LeBron James got the better of Grant.

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http://arizona.sbnation.com/phoenix...rant-hill-elite-defender-of-nbas-best-players

Then this season he hasn't been much of a drop off either.

Golden State's Monta Ellis, barring an improbable game-winner, struggles more against Hill than any player who guards him. Washington's Nick Young had his second-worst shooting game of the season with Hill defending him. Atlanta's Joe Johnson made 8 of 23 shots in two games against Hill this season. The Los Angeles Clippers' Chris Paul rarely looks more passive than he did in facing Hill on Friday night.
Tonight, Hill will guard Sacramento point guard Tyreke Evans, who had arguably the worst shooting game of his career three weeks ago, when Evans scored four points (13 below his average) and made 1 of 9 shots.
 

sunsfan88

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I said he wasn't a top 5 or top 10 defender. Yes, I think he's one of the ten best shooting guard/small forward defenders.

Steve
Well yea cause he plays the position of a wing player he can only play defense against wing players (although he does seem to be able to irritate some PFs like Griffin, Dirk etc)
 

AzStevenCal

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Well yea cause he plays the position of a wing player he can only play defense against wing players (although he does seem to be able to irritate some PFs like Griffin, Dirk etc)

You don't think there's a difference between being one of the top 5 or 10 defenders in the league as opposed to being one of the top 5 or 10 wing defenders?

Steve
 
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