QB options since Warner

JeffGollin

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So Kolb, Skelton and Lindley were objectively the best the Cardinals could do?



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Given the circumstances and our trading/drafting firepower? Kinda.

But someone had to stand up and do what it took to reel in Manning (It turned out to be Elway and not us). Someone had to roll the dice on Wilson. (Credit to Carroll for having the judgment and cojones to do it. We didn't). Kudos to Harbaugh who, in the face of blazing criticism, passed on A Smith and stuck his guns by drafting and then starting Kaepernic. (I'd guess that if we really wanted Kaepernick, we could have found a way to wind up with him, but we lacked both the judgment and commitment ). Same deal with Dalton.

I bring this up because it looks like a weak year to draft a QB. But I'll bet you that at least one team will strike gold and wind up with this year's Kapernick or Wilson. Will it be us? Or will we continue to bring in guys like Derek Anderson or Leinart.

It all has to do with having the knack to evaluate QB's and the commitment to find a way to grab a good one when the opportunity arises.

I question both the judgment and commitment of the current Cardinal regime. Something has to change.
 

Jetstream Green

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You're absolutely, positively correct that plural moves were & still are needed. The QB position is an absolute MUST in the NFL. Kudos to the Seahawks, Skins & Packers ownership for doing what was necessary to improve their chances of finding their QBOF. This is why I am so critical of Cardinal ownership & not as critical of Whisenhunt. We don't really know what Whiz wanted. He may have very well wanted to take the same plural approach as mentioned. But the Cardinal ownership has NEVER nor would ever consider doing that. It's not even a matter of frugality. Cardinal Mgmt would consider that overkill. They'd rather take their chances with one guy, but certainly not two. In today's NFL, an NFL owner has to do WHATEVER it takes to find a QB. The sooner the Cardinals realize that, they then have a chance to succeed. Personally, Bill Bidwill will NEVER see it that way. THAT'S OUR PROBLEM!!! Not this coach or ANY coach can change that loser mentality. It ALWAYS starts at the top. If we fire Whiz, NO great HC with half a brain will come anywhere near us.

I think we would be shocked of who Whis actually might have wanted and who the front office allowed him to pursue or draft. Did he want Kolb, Skelton and Lindley...yes he did, but maybe they were not his first choice :)
 

SissyBoyFloyd

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Personally I am fed up with a couple things. One is this attitude about reaching for a player in the draft. For one thing, ranking the players is just the subjective opinions of pundits. Everyone has there own opinions and rankings, and half of those ranked high turn out to be busts to some degree. There is very little difference in the top 30 or so players and one would need a crystal ball to determine who will be good, how good, and where they really should be ranked.

Now that leads to my second thing. That is all the worry about making sure your fans know that you took the highest player ranked on your board, like you have to have some external excuse for taking a player. Sounds more like you are trying to pacify to Kipers, McShays, and the fans who buy into these Big Board predictions. Take the time to see how the top 25-50 top players ranked in last year's draft has turned out and it is laughable. If you ranked them now, the list would not even look like the same year.

This leads me to my overall feeling that you should draft to fill your greatest needs. Who the hell and why would anyone think you should draft someone in a position you don't really need just because the pundits (who influence one another by the way) say they are a better pick in that spot. To me that is stupid and history doesn't justify it.

IF you have a glaring need in an area, then fill it with the very best players in the draft. It doesn't matter if you are picking 5th and this guy you need is only ranked 10th by the pundits. They are probably wrong anyway. And who the hell ever came up with the idea that this position or that should never be taken so high in the draft. If the player is that good and is just what you need most, for god's sake get him. If he is the player that is most likely to make your team instantly better and fill a hole, who cares what others think he is worth.

These attitudes drive me nuts and are so prevalent on all these forums. Sorry, I just can't buy into them like others have.

Now I got that off my chest. Time to go walk the dog.
 

kerouac9

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Hope you enjoyed your walk.

Personally I am fed up with a couple things. One is this attitude about reaching for a player in the draft. For one thing, ranking the players is just the subjective opinions of pundits. Everyone has there own opinions and rankings, and half of those ranked high turn out to be busts to some degree. There is very little difference in the top 30 or so players and one would need a crystal ball to determine who will be good, how good, and where they really should be ranked.

I generally feel this way most of the time. I disagree with you that the top 30 players are generally the same in skill set/potential. There's usually a small group of "elite" prospects, then a slightly larger group of very good prospects, and then a bulge of 25-40 guys who depend on the scheme and situation.

The Jackonville Jaguars are a team who do exactly what you advocate. They ended up drafting Tyson Alualu 10th overall in the 2010 draft when he was rated as a late-first rounder by a lot of teams. Alualu has turned out to be a pretty solid player for them.

The opposing argument is that if you really like a guy who's projected to go later, you're passing up additional value by taking him 5-10 spots earlier than his projection. You could get the same guy and an additional 3rd-5th-round pick.

This thought process also caused the Jaguars to draft punter Bryan Anger with the 7th pick in the 3rd round, before Seahawks quarterback Russell Wilson. Their GM's explanation was that he'd rather draft a starter than a backup whenever possible. All right, then.

Now that leads to my second thing. That is all the worry about making sure your fans know that you took the highest player ranked on your board, like you have to have some external excuse for taking a player. Sounds more like you are trying to pacify to Kipers, McShays, and the fans who buy into these Big Board predictions. Take the time to see how the top 25-50 top players ranked in last year's draft has turned out and it is laughable. If you ranked them now, the list would not even look like the same year.

Fair enough. Teams always say "We had him ranked higher!" and "We can't believe this guy was still available!" in their post-draft press conferences. It's possible that they're telling the truth. The Cards keep two boards--one of straight-up prospects, and a second board of value to the team, in the system. There are lots of players that are worth more to a particular team than they might be on the open market.

I don't think there are a lot of people who take McShay's or Kiper's or WalterFootball's or The Huddle Report's words as gospel, but I think we all use them as a general guideline and consensus about where we can expect players to go.

This leads me to my overall feeling that you should draft to fill your greatest needs. Who the hell and why would anyone think you should draft someone in a position you don't really need just because the pundits (who influence one another by the way) say they are a better pick in that spot. To me that is stupid and history doesn't justify it.

IF you have a glaring need in an area, then fill it with the very best players in the draft. It doesn't matter if you are picking 5th and this guy you need is only ranked 10th by the pundits. They are probably wrong anyway. And who the hell ever came up with the idea that this position or that should never be taken so high in the draft. If the player is that good and is just what you need most, for god's sake get him. If he is the player that is most likely to make your team instantly better and fill a hole, who cares what others think he is worth.

These attitudes drive me nuts and are so prevalent on all these forums. Sorry, I just can't buy into them like others have.

Now I got that off my chest. Time to go walk the dog.

So... we should've drafted Levi Brown over Adrian Peterson. And we should not have drafted Patrick Peterson, because we had DRC and Greg Toler. We should have taken Jake Locker, Aldon Smith, or Tyron Smith, since QB, OLB, and OT were greater needs.

Would we be a better team right now if we had done that?
 

BLRIGHT

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The biggest issue isn't starting this season with Skelton and Kolb the #1 and #2 (even Lindley as the #3, which was kind of silly since the #1 and #2 weren't playing that well, you would think Bartel as #3 and Lindley to PS)...but when Skelton went down, THAT was when we should have had a non-rookie backup to Kolb. When Kolb went down, another siren going off for the coaches to get some journeyman QB so Lindley never has to take the field. When Skelton tanks, we go to crappy #3, who is probably marginally better than Skelton and we MAYBE win 1-2 games more this season. Still a losing record, still a strong QB need, still pressure on coaching and FO changes - but the season sucks a LITTLE bit less.

Good take.
 

Jetstream Green

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I think the NFL draft is by all means a gamble. You draft the top ranked guys over need when you view that there is less risk in the gamble failing. A few years back it made even more sense to draft the best player in ones observation over need because you would not want to pay 3rd round talent top 1st round money, which had gotten to absurd heights.
 

Jetstream Green

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Good take.

I don't even think it is a take but a obvious move which for some season or another we did not act on. The Bills game and Falcon game would have been wins with a decent guy under center or even a below average vet. My personal belief is that it was ownership and not Whis who failed to act. We will never know, but I would love to see a book written with truthful accounts by past Cardinal coaches. That would be a best seller, with the term fact is stranger than fiction holding true :)
 

BLRIGHT

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I don't even think it is a take but a obvious move which for some season or another we did not act on. The Bills game and Falcon game would have been wins with a decent guy under center or even a below average vet. My personal belief is that it was ownership and not Whis who failed to act. We will never know, but I would love to see a book written with truthful accounts by past Cardinal coaches. That would be a best seller, with the term fact is stranger than fiction holding true :)

I don't know, but as soon as we lost the Falcons game, I wanted the team to focus on player development and scheme. I don't care about wins and losses so much as preparing for the next year and getting the best possible draft position. It's painful, but if you aren't playing for the playoffs, it's just an exhibition season. The Seahawks game sucked because the wheels came off, but we have been highly competitive up until then. I was in the stands for the Jets game in 2008, and if we fired Whiz after that game, what would've happened? It wasn't quite the same debacle, but it was a debacle.

I firmly believe that if we can (i) get Levi back, (ii) draft an MLB and (iii) get consistent (if not spectacular) QB play, this team is not only playoff bound, but a title contender. I choose to hold onto the belief/hope that how we played in New England is the promise for this team.
 

Duckjake

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So... we should've drafted Levi Brown over Adrian Peterson. And we should not have drafted Patrick Peterson, because we had DRC and Greg Toler. We should have taken Jake Locker, Aldon Smith, or Tyron Smith, since QB, OLB, and OT were greater needs.

Would we be a better team right now if we had done that?

I think they would. All Peterson has done since he's been in Arizona is caused the team to drop in the draft. :p

Should we have taken Flacco in 2008 instead of DRC? Yes because Warner was 37 and Leinart was never going to play again and DRC was shipped off after just 3 years so obviously that pick was a huge mistake.

Just think if the Cards had drafted Flacco and traded Leinart. We could have picked up a couple more Jim Drays with those extra draft picks. :D
 
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kerouac9

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I think they would. All Peterson has done since he's been in Arizona is caused the team to drop in the draft. :p

Should we have taken Flacco in 2008 instead of DRC? Yes because Warner was 37 and CKW had no intention of ever playing Leinart again and DRC was shipped off after just 3 years so obviously that pick was a huge mistake.

Just think if the Cards had drafted Flacco and traded Leinart. We could have picked up a couple more Jim Drays with those extra draft picks. :D

Ah... but we couldn't. Why? Because we had massive, gaping hole at cornerback where Rod Hood and Eric Green used to be. DRC wasn't a value pick; he was a necessity. People were bandying around the names of tackles Branden Albert and Sam Baker, but the real heat was between DRC and Antoine Cason.

And Mitch was the voice in the wilderness saying that we should use our first rounder on DeSean Jackson.
 

football karma

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And Mitch was the voice in the wilderness saying that we should use our first rounder on DeSean Jackson.

i thought that was Russ?

and interestingly: at the time, people thought that Ravens taking Flacco in round 1 was a bit of reach --

and even if the Cardinals had taken him -- doomed to failure. Flacco is a guy who really needed the running game to protect him. He has probably developed past that point, but for the first four years : being on the Cardinals wouldnt have been good for him.
 

kerouac9

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i thought that was Russ?

and interestingly: at the time, people thought that Ravens taking Flacco in round 1 was a bit of reach --

and even if the Cardinals had taken him -- doomed to failure. Flacco is a guy who really needed the running game to protect him. He has probably developed past that point, but for the first four years : being on the Cardinals wouldnt have been good for him.

Mmm... I don't know. Barnwell did an analysis a few weeks ago looking at Expected Wins on Defensive Performance. Flacco has been an immense beneficiary of having a good defense around him--second only to Sanchez in the period he looked at.

Flacco can make himself a lot of money by winning a couple of playoff games; he's a really difficult guy to set the market on. I don't think that he's a "franchise" quarterback, but he's clearly a guy who can do some things and you're not eager to replace. In that way, he's kind of a poor-man's Jay Cutler without being an *******.
 

JeffGollin

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Drafting a QB is a risk. In some cases, so is not drafting one. I really don't think there are any set rules - only that some coaches and scouts have the knack of identifying and growing young QB's and others do not.

The important thing is that, whatever we do regarding QB's - we'd better get it right.

Since Kurt, we haven't come close.
 

Mulli

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Mmm... I don't know. Barnwell did an analysis a few weeks ago looking at Expected Wins on Defensive Performance. Flacco has been an immense beneficiary of having a good defense around him--second only to Sanchez in the period he looked at.

Flacco can make himself a lot of money by winning a couple of playoff games; he's a really difficult guy to set the market on. I don't think that he's a "franchise" quarterback, but he's clearly a guy who can do some things and you're not eager to replace. In that way, he's kind of a poor-man's Jay Cutler without being an *******.

Flacco is clearly better than Cutler to me. He had the Ravens in the Super Bowl if other the Ravens didn't give the game to the Pats.
 

football karma

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Flacco is clearly better than Cutler to me. He had the Ravens in the Super Bowl if other the Ravens didn't give the game to the Pats.

I like Flacco

but I think you see the very best that Flacco has to offer

he benefits immensely from Ray Rice, a franchise the invests in offensive linemen, and a top notch defense that rarely puts the offense in the position where it has to abandon the run game.
 

CtCardinals78

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It doesn't matter anyway. Whisenhunt could have drafted Andrew Luck made him change his throwing style, footwork and rhythm to fit the system that "works" and screwed him up for the rest of his career.

Substitute Matt Leinart for Andrew Luck and that's exactly what happened. Granted Leinart was immature and had a lot of learn, but to me it just looked like Whisenhunt shredded Leinart's game.
 

Cheesebeef

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I like Flacco

but I think you see the very best that Flacco has to offer

he benefits immensely from Ray Rice, a franchise the invests in offensive linemen, and a top notch defense that rarely puts the offense in the position where it has to abandon the run game.

to be fair to Flacco, that D hasn't been completely lights out the last three years, ranking 24th this year, 3rd last year and 10th the year before that. dudes a good QB. Don't think he's elite, but I'd kill to have him.
 

football karma

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to be fair to Flacco, that D hasn't been completely lights out the last three years, ranking 24th this year, 3rd last year and 10th the year before that. dudes a good QB. Don't think he's elite, but I'd kill to have him.

i like him too

but if the Cards got him, at least initially he wouldnt be as good here as he is there

now -- that still would be light years better than what we have witnessed
 

kerouac9

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Flacco is clearly better than Cutler to me. He had the Ravens in the Super Bowl if other the Ravens didn't give the game to the Pats.

I dunno. Cutler isn't playing his best this season, but last year he had the Bears chugging to an NFC North crown before getting injured.

Here's Barnwell pretty convincingly on Flacco (IMO): http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8434708/the-numbers-never-lie-ravens-fueled-their-defense

I went and ran this for the first four years of Flacco's career and the vast, vast majority of starts for quarterbacks from 1993 through to the end of last season. And you know what? Joe Flacco's win total isn't really that impressive. Flacco's Ravens won 44 of 64 regular-season games from 2008 to 2011. By my count, an average NFL quarterback with a similarly effective defense would have won 42 games with that same defensive output. Flacco's winning ways, if you want to give him credit for them, were worth about a half-win per season.

Hard to quote a bit of a semi-short column and have it make sense, but it's worth reading the entire thing.
 

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Flacco would be an upgrade over anyone we've had since Warner. However, he does get a lot of help on the Ravens from Rice and the D and still isn't good enough to be elite. I wouldn't mind having him here for a year or two as a starter while we groom a draft pick, if he's the best available to us this offseason.
 

Dayman

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We took Jamell Fleming five picks after Wilson and eight picks before Foles. Jamell Fleming was a healthy scratch this week.

The victim of circumstance argument doesn't hold as much weight these days.
 

BLRIGHT

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It doesn't matter anyway. Whisenhunt could have drafted Andrew Luck made him change his throwing style, footwork and rhythm to fit the system that "works" and screwed him up for the rest of his career.

Substitute Matt Leinart for Andrew Luck and that's exactly what happened. Granted Leinart was immature and had a lot of learn, but to me it just looked like Whisenhunt shredded Leinart's game.

How can you compare Andrew Luck with Matt Leinart? Leinart literally can't throw the ball other than touch passes and checkdowns. Don't you remember the preseason game where he almost got Fitz killed? If Leinart were such an awesome talent, he would be starting elsewhere in the NFL by now (regardless of what Whiz did). His college coach certainly would have taken him, but he didn't, which speaks volumes.
 

Duckjake

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How can you compare Andrew Luck with Matt Leinart? Leinart literally can't throw the ball other than touch passes and checkdowns. Don't you remember the preseason game where he almost got Fitz killed? If Leinart were such an awesome talent, he would be starting elsewhere in the NFL by now (regardless of what Whiz did). His college coach certainly would have taken him, but he didn't, which speaks volumes.

This is what I don't get. People say Leinart couldn't throw the football yet he passed for 365 yards against Texas. A Texas team that had Aaron Ross, Cedric Griffin, Michael Griffin, Michael Huff and Tarrell Brown in the secondary. Every one of them has started games in the NFL this season. Meanwhile isn't only Steve Smith of the USC Wide Receivers still in the NFL?
 

Duckjake

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Ah... but we couldn't. Why? Because we had massive, gaping hole at cornerback where Rod Hood and Eric Green used to be. DRC wasn't a value pick; he was a necessity. People were bandying around the names of tackles Branden Albert and Sam Baker, but the real heat was between DRC and Antoine Cason.

And Mitch was the voice in the wilderness saying that we should use our first rounder on DeSean Jackson.

You're overlooking one thing. At the time of the 2008 draft the majority of fans didn't know that Leinart was never going to start for the Cardinals again unless there was an injury to Warner. Had we known that I'm sure our take on the draft would have been much different.
 
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