Pugh on OL play

[Russ Smith]

https://www.azcardinals.com/news/ju...BWK3Yhaw2MG0rPqdtVNWQ1hXx9j3x0u0OVXEKr3lD3Vzc

I think someone is reading this board !

I actually think much of what he says is correct, when we don't know the scheme, what the actual play was supposed to be, it's just not that easy to determine who actually made the mistake.

 

[BigRedRage]

"we dont suck, you dont know what you are talking about. We are awesome"

I doubt its this board. Its probably twitter.

 

[Chopper0080]

and no one is going to blast their hyped rookie QB.

 

[kerouac9]

and no one is going to blast their hyped rookie QB.

I wonder how long the omerta around Kyler continues. I think another multi-INT game and they're going to have to say something.

 

[Chopper0080]

"we dont suck, you dont know what you are talking about. We are awesome"

I doubt its this board. Its probably twitter.

It isn't that...NFL linemen know what they are for the most part. Pugh understands what he is as a player. It's not that they don't have bad plays or make mistakes, but there can be a lot of factors that can manipulate perception of the quality of line play.

The best way I have heard it described is that you have to look at most offensive linemen who make it to the NFL as a bell curve. 80% of those dudes are in the middle and ultimately range between slightly-below to slightly-above average. 10% on either side are either really-bad or really-good. QBs have the ability to make the middle 80% look better or worse than they actually are depending on how quickly they get rid of the ball, how they audible, how they shift the line to adjust to pressure, identifying free rushers, and how they move in the pocket.

This is why I feel comfortable saying that Murray is contributing to the pressure he is seeing as much as the line is. There a slight movements that QBs make in the pocket that help blocking angles and prevent QB pressures from occurring.

 

[Chopper0080]

I wonder how long the omerta around Kyler continues. I think another multi-INT game and they're going to have to say something.

Linemen are trained to be pretty loyal to their QBs. It is programmed into them from early football. Until he calls them out, they will probably stay quiet like Pugh did in this interview.

 

[ARZCardinals]

Sounds good....but no one asked him, then why is Murray being hit within 1.5 seconds of getting the ball. #2- Why are the Cardinals then only averaging 35 yards a game running? Is a lack of trust in the O line or is it that the O line just can't get it done?
How come there are holding penalties on the O line every other run play?
Excuse me Mr. Pugh...recently online they've referred to the o line play similar to your name P-U....care to comment?

Till the O line gives protection like I see for guys like Mahomes (where he can have a cup of coffee after a snap) or the run game is averaging 110 yards a game....the O line sucks

 

[kerouac9]

Sounds good....but no one asked him, then why is Murray being hit within 1.5 seconds of getting the ball. #2- Why are the Cardinals then only averaging 35 yards a game running? Is a lack of trust in the O line or is it that the O line just can't get it done?
How come there are holding penalties on the O line every other run play?
Excuse me Mr. Pugh...recently online they've referred to the o line play similar to your name P-U....care to comment?

Till the O line gives protection like I see for guys like Mahomes (where he can have a cup of coffee after a snap) or the run game is averaging 110 yards a game....the O line sucks

Do you have a link for this?

 

[Lagerfilled]

What anyone with a brain can see every stinkin Sunday is the RB getting hit in the backfield repeatedly or having no holes to run through. Whether or not Pugh is right, wrong, or I agree is irrelevant. It’s painfully obvious to all observers that they’re substandard as a unit whether all five are at fault or just one making a mistake every play. They need to take more pride or yield to a younger guy who’s hungry like Cole, Guillard (when healthy), etc. I’m pretty sure that coaching is no longer the issue.

 

[Russ Smith]

I didn't really get the impression Pugh is saying we're good people just don't know what they're looking at. I think he's subtly pointing out that when you don't know what the actual scheme of a play was, it's hard to determine whose fault the outcome was. Both talking about things like PFF, and people like us who say man Pugh whiffed on that block when as he said it may have been by scheme because of misdirection or something similar.

I also think there are certain things football fans just do. Fans of almost every team talk about crappy play calling and bad OL play. If they have a good or great offense they don't, if their offense isn't good to great they do. I think what Pugh is saying is fans of most teams think their OL sucks.

I see it constantly on the game day threads the play calling sucks. There's really no way to know if you're not at the stadium where you can see the whole field.

I remember vividly a long running argument I had ages ago over a pick Plummer threw in SF when he tried to hit our TE Freddie Jones(?) on a play down the left side. I was at the game, I had a perfect view of the play. Jones broke free at the LOS and was wide open, 5 plus yards behind the defender. Jake didn't see him right away and when he did he put a ton of air under the throw, the defense caught up and intercepted it. I blasted Jake, and got blasted by a guy who said the TE didn't fight for the ball, that's on him, the ball was there he has to prevent the INT. I kept saying you can't be serious jones was WIDE open that was a bad throw. We went back and forth for days until someone posted the video of the play that showed clearly how much separation Jones actually had. He and I still didn't agree but it made it more obvious to other people why I was so mad at the QB on the play you just don't see NFL players get that open that quickly and end up with an INT very often.

On tv we see what they show us so we can't really tell if it was a bad play call, or just not executed.

The classic example was the play where Skelton threw to a TE on 3rd down in double coverage and we didn't get it and had to kick. Everyone said bad play call. And then the next week Skelton wasn't starting anymore. Why? Because that play was the final straw, rookie Michael Floyd had lined up on the wrong side of the formation, Skelton didn't move him, so when Floyd ran his route he ran the defender right into the TE and the play didn't work. THe play call was fine, the TE ran the right route, even Floyd ran the right route. The problem was Floyd was on the wrong side and the QB didn't see it and move him.

 

[Russ Smith]

What anyone with a brain can see every stinkin Sunday is the RB getting hit in the backfield repeatedly or having no holes to run through. Whether or not Pugh is right, wrong, or I agree is irrelevant. It’s painfully obvious to all observers that they’re substandard as a unit whether all five are at fault or just one making a mistake every play. They need to take more pride or yield to a younger guy who’s hungry like Cole, Guillard (when healthy), etc. I’m pretty sure that coaching is no longer the issue.

again I don't think he's saying we're great everyone else stinks. I think he's kind of subtly saying we have a rookie QB, a rookie HC, some young WR's, and a new OL and we're not all on the same page yet.

 

[BigRedRage]

I know DJ gets tackled as soon as he gets the handoff but you dont know what the scheme was so you cant say we suck

 

[MadCardDisease]

I totally agree with Pugh regarding not knowing what the actual player responsibilities are. That is why I laugh at sites like PFF that try and grade players while not knowing what the player was actually supposed to do during a play.

 

[BigRedRage]

"we were worst in the league in rushing last year but you dont know the scheme so you cant say we are bad"

 

[Russ Smith]

"we were worst in the league in rushing last year but you dont know the scheme so you cant say we are bad"

Again I don't think that's what he's saying. I think what he's saying is on a given play it's difficult for fans or PFF etc to determine what actually went wrong.

You won't like this because Schlereth was an OL too but here's him just 2 days ago saying DJ is not dynamic anymore and hasn't been since 2016.

https://arizonasports.com/story/209...id-johnson-is-not-a-dynamic-offensive-player/

The kicker from that article is if you block for 5 yards, he'll get you 5 yards. He's just not getting as many explosive plays as he did in 16, not even close. as Schlereth said some is scheme, some is the OL, and some is Johnson just doesn't look to be the same guy.

last year I think the OL was horrible and the scheme, up the middle, was bad. DJ averaged 3.6, Edmonds 3.5. This year it's early but DJ is 3.7 and Edmonds is 4.4. Chase only has 5 carries way too small a sample size and hopefully DJ is about to break off a big run next week and start doing it more often, he has had some flashes as Schlereth says. But so far it looks to me like there's more room to run this year than last due to scheme, I just don't think DJ is very comfortable running out of this scheme, it seems Chase is far more comfortable in it than David is.

I think the OL sucks, I think we need better play from Kyler and I think Kliff needs to tweak the offense too.

 

[BigRedRage]

Again I don't think that's what he's saying. I think what he's saying is on a given play it's difficult for fans or PFF etc to determine what actually went wrong.

You won't like this because Schlereth was an OL too but here's him just 2 days ago saying DJ is not dynamic anymore and hasn't been since 2016.

https://arizonasports.com/story/209...id-johnson-is-not-a-dynamic-offensive-player/

The kicker from that article is if you block for 5 yards, he'll get you 5 yards. He's just not getting as many explosive plays as he did in 16, not even close. as Schlereth said some is scheme, some is the OL, and some is Johnson just doesn't look to be the same guy.

last year I think the OL was horrible and the scheme, up the middle, was bad. DJ averaged 3.6, Edmonds 3.5. This year it's early but DJ is 3.7 and Edmonds is 4.4. Chase only has 5 carries way too small a sample size and hopefully DJ is about to break off a big run next week and start doing it more often, he has had some flashes as Schlereth says. But so far it looks to me like there's more room to run this year than last due to scheme, I just don't think DJ is very comfortable running out of this scheme, it seems Chase is far more comfortable in it than David is.

I think the OL sucks, I think we need better play from Kyler and I think Kliff needs to tweak the offense too.

What schlereth says about the RB isnt very relevant to what I like or not. Our offensive line has not been playing well and I dont really take a lot of stock in Pugh defending the poor play we have seen. My posts are more tongue in cheek jokes about the article.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

It isn't that...NFL linemen know what they are for the most part. Pugh understands what he is as a player. It's not that they don't have bad plays or make mistakes, but there can be a lot of factors that can manipulate perception of the quality of line play.

The best way I have heard it described is that you have to look at most offensive linemen who make it to the NFL as a bell curve. 80% of those dudes are in the middle and ultimately range between slightly-below to slightly-above average. 10% on either side are either really-bad or really-good. QBs have the ability to make the middle 80% look better or worse than they actually are depending on how quickly they get rid of the ball, how they audible, how they shift the line to adjust to pressure, identifying free rushers, and how they move in the pocket.

This is why I feel comfortable saying that Murray is contributing to the pressure he is seeing as much as the line is. There a slight movements that QBs make in the pocket that help blocking angles and prevent QB pressures from occurring.

Baghdad bob says our line is great! It's the evil Kyler Murray that is the problem.

 

[ARZCardinals]

Mark Schlereth is DEAD ON

Elite RB's - when the O line blocks for 3 you get 5-6, they block for 6 elite RB's get 10 or more....DJ can't do it

DJ is on pace for 709 yards...a pathetic 44 yards per game

yet he's the #1 paid RB in the league

Currently after 3 weeks

David Johnson is 30th in RB's in yards...Justin Jackson of the Chargers is ahead of him, backup Tony Pollard for Dallas is ahead of him, Royce Freeman is way ahead of him and the pathetic line of the Jets has Le'veon Bell way ahead of him...and they have NO O line and No QB.

Some of you are still living in yesterday when david johnson WAS good....he's not anymore.....he's a washed up RB collecting a pay check as a married man and a father of 1. He shows about as much effort on the field as I did in JR High science class.

Give up already thinking what was will be.....some of you are like guys who still dream about their high school girlfriend thinking 'she could have been the one' ....yea that time is long gone and what you remember then isn't what is today. Wake up and open your eyes when DJ gets the ball....he doesn't break ANY tackles....he falls down upon ANY contact....he's slow for a RB....go watch tonights game and see Jones and Cooks run the ball and see the true speed of some RB's....and you'll honestly see DJ isn't just behind as a RB, he's too slow and shows no effort to fight for yards....open your eyes and truly evaluate him.

I'll bet the house if you honestly watch tonights RB's and then watch DJ during the past 3 games or vs. Seattle you see he's way way way slower and DJ will fall down where better RB's push through tackles. I honestly make fun of him during the games with the people we're with, "Watch DJ get the ball and fall down on the first hand that touches him."....and what do you know...he does time and time again.

 

[Chopper0080]

Baghdad bob says our line is great! It's the evil Kyler Murray that is the problem.

I don't know what this means.

I'm guessing that you are agreeing with me that most of the pass protection blame so far this season is split pretty evenly between the line and Kyler Murray.

 

[JeffGollin]

"we were worst in the league in rushing last year but you dont know the scheme so you cant say we are bad"

Point well taken, but whatever the reason for sucking, we can't be sure about what needs fixing.

Is it the scheme? Is it individual play calling? Specific player? Talent? Motivation? Combination of more than one factor?

If we want to get better, we need to know what to fix. I'm not cofident that any of us- fans or coaches know what to do. That's the gist of the problem.

 

[BigRedRage]

Point well taken, but whatever the reason for sucking, we can't be sure about what needs fixing.

Is it the scheme? Is it individual play calling? Specific player? Talent? Motivation? Combination of more than one factor?

If we want to get better, we need to know what to fix. I'm not cofident that any of us- fans or coaches know what to do. That's the gist of the problem.

I think the coaches know far better of what to do and ultimately, we have the players we have so you make the best with what youve got until next year.

 

[Redsz]

From both a numbers and eye ball test perspective I think it is clear that DJ is not the same player. He is probably in the best shape of his life but it isn't translating into explosiveness.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Baghdad bob says our line is great! It's the evil Kyler Murray that is the problem.

Why not just respond to Chopper's take... which was ALL FOOTBALL... instead of calling him Bagdad Bob and then projecting an inane "Kyler is evil" argument on to him?

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Well, he is right that we don't know the assignments and who is making the mistake. A lot of mistakes are being made though. I don't expect Pugh to just come out and say who made them. With that said, if he is going to tell us 'Don't blame us, you don't know what's going on.' then tell us what is going on. If you have the insight, share.

Not sure what Pugh gained here other than sounding bitter. When put in a lose lose situation like he was. He probably should have taken the high road.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

From both a numbers and eye ball test perspective I think it is clear that DJ is not the same player. He is probably in the best shape of his life but it isn't translating into explosiveness.

Agreed. I think he needs to find a hole and go. He needs to get into the open field before becoming the old DJ.