Nets @ Suns Wednesday game thread 12-13-2023

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Nobody’s giving up on them but a team full a veterans with a championship head coach making so many dumb mistakes and turnovers is concerning.

Particularly because it’s been consistent in that awfulness. It’s not occasional. It’s always. Even in the w’s. That’s the part of this season I didn’t see coming. The stupidity.

 

[ajcardfan]

Agreed. We haven’t seen this team at full strength for even a game and they’re over .500 (albeit barely). Give it a run of health and let’s see what we got. That said, as good of basketball players as they are, they’re basketball IQs leave a lot to be desired. And I’m including the coaching staff in that assessment.

Yeah, the dumb plays are just killers. You would think this team would be taking advantage of mistakes late in games, rather than being the team shooting itself in the foot almost every night.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I don't like excuses, either. The Suns are 6-7 at home. And they lost to the Spurs twice in Phoenix.

That was the last time the Spurs won a game. They’re 0-13 since. Outside of their back to back wins on our home court, they’re a sterling 1-19.

 

[Mainstreet]

The Lakers beat the Spurs tonight, who have lost 18 straight games.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Listening to Vogel I just want him to shut up.

“They’re figuring out how to get each other ball and when to be aggressive.” WTF?!? What did they work in all preseason and to date???

 

[Mainstreet]

Right now, the Suns are ranked 10th in the West and holding off the Warriors for a play-in spot.

 

[Raindog]

I'm pinning this (so far) crap fest of a season mostly on two individuals: Frank Vogel and James Jones.

Vogel is clearly just not a good coach at all, and quite possibly utterly clueless. It's apparent he was just along for the ride with the Lakers, and I guess was hoping to repeat that here. Unless the Suns make some massive (and unforeseeable) turnaround by the end of the season, I'm guessing he'll be fired after just a year, which is pretty ignominious.

And I don't think James Jones knows what he's doing either. He can't construct a roster, and any of the guys we dumped for nothing the past two seasons (Saric, Payne, Crowder) would be coming in handy right about now. And I know Crowder was part of the Durant trade, but he didn't have to be... and he was an asset until Monty and Jones decided to get in a pissing match with him.

The team is definitely a mess, but it's not by accident. We'll see if they ever get healthy, how much of a difference it makes. But just watching the inexplicable nonsense on the court from veteran players who you have to believe would know better, tells me there's something going on besides just injuries and guys needing time to mesh.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

I'm pinning this (so far) crap fest of a season mostly on two individuals: Frank Vogel and James Jones.

Vogel is clearly just not a good coach at all, and quite possibly utterly clueless. It's apparent he was just along for the ride with the Lakers, and I guess was hoping to repeat that here. Unless the Suns make some massive (and unforeseeable) turnaround by the end of the season, I'm guessing he'll be fired after just a year, which is pretty ignominious.

And I don't think James Jones knows what he's doing either. He can't construct a roster, and any of the guys we dumped for nothing the past two seasons (Saric, Payne, Crowder) would be coming in handy right about now. And I know Crowder was part of the Durant trade, but he didn't have to be... and he was an asset until Monty and Jones decided to get in a pissing match with him.

The team is definitely a mess, but it's not by accident. We'll see if they ever get healthy, how much of a difference it makes. But just watching the inexplicable nonsense on the court from veteran players who you have to believe would know better, tells me there's something going on besides just injuries and guys needing time to mesh.

You do realize Vogel had a coaching career before he was "along for the ride" with the Lakers right?

Can't particularly disagree with JJ, but we haven't exactly seen this team at or near full strength yet.

 

[BooksOrangePlanet]

As frustrating as this team is to watch right now, I won't be giving up on them until they are mathematically out of the playoffs. They have already had a 7 game win streak this season. A couple more of those and we will be just fine.

We are definitely making the playoffs

 

[Raindog]

You do realize Vogel had a coaching career before he was "along for the ride" with the Lakers right?

I do know that. But most of whatever cachet he allegedly has (and why he was hired here) was based on the "bubble" championship... but then fired a year later. It's beginning to be apparent as to why that might have been.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Need to see what this team looks like for a healthy 10-15 game stretch. Hopefully that stretch is coming up right now.

Beal does not have his legs right now and looks tired half the time he has been out there the last couple games. He will likely be looking more explosive after he gets his legs under him.

Of course, that requires the team to actually get and stay healthy and that has not been a thing so far. 13-11 isn't so bad when you consider the amount of games missed by key players.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

I do know that. But most of whatever cachet he allegedly has (and why he was hired here) was based on the "bubble" championship... but then fired a year later. It's beginning to be apparent as to why that might have been.

That reason is a someone named LeBron. If he has a single disappointing year than some sort of major change has to happen.

 

[RON_IN_OC]

At the moment we made the trade I thought it had potential to be among the worst trades ever… potential. That potential is being realized far earlier than I thought.

I thought we’d sacrificed years of contention for a minor short term increase. Instead, this current team is not a contender at all.

Gave up the future, the present and made ourselves actively worse.

I’m sitting here on Washington, waiting for the train, but I could not be more disheartened for this franchise.

The most expensive and least exciting team in basketball. This sucks.

They don't have the bulk or the balls to impose their will and/or bully other teams...to me, that's the most frustrating. They have almost zero ability to dictate the flow of a game, unless Booker goes unconscious when shooting.

 

[Mainstreet]

That reason is a someone named LeBron. If he has a single disappointing year than some sort of major change has to happen.

It could be Lebron was right. The Suns defense is atrocious under Frank Vogel.

 

[Cheesebeef]

We are definitely making the playoffs

Probably, but we haven’t even suffered the big 6 week KD injury that seems to derail him at least once every season lately/

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

It could be Lebron was right. The Suns defense is atrocious under Frank Vogel.

That would make a lot more sense if Vogel didn't have a history of coaching good defensive teams.

This team doesn't have the strongest defensive talent and they are learning to integrate a poo ton of moving parts in at once. They have still managed to be ranked as a mediocre defense despite this.

Look at the one bad year he had with the Lakers before being fired. AD missed 42 games, LeBron missed 26 games and he was relying heavily on Westbrook and Carmelo to win games.

They turned over their roster last year and had a slightly healthier team and won like 10 more games.

 

[Mainstreet]

That would make a lot more sense if Vogel didn't have a history of coaching good defensive teams.

This team doesn't have the strongest defensive talent and they are learning to integrate a poo ton of moving parts in at once. They have still managed to be ranked as a mediocre defense despite this.

Look at the one bad year he had with the Lakers before being fired. AD missed 42 games, LeBron missed 26 games and he was relying heavily on Westbrook and Carmelo to win games.

They turned over their roster last year and had a slightly healthier team and won like 10 more games.

This is fair, but the Suns should be able to play much better defense.

Devin Booker is playing some of his best basketball, but he is carrying too heavy of a load. The Suns really need someone who can control the tempo of the game in the 4th quarter. Previously this was Chris Paul.

The Lakers making moves before the trade deadline last season was huge and I think they are improved.

Of course Anthony Davis being healthy is a difference maker.

 

[GatorAZ]

They don't have the bulk or the balls to impose their will and/or bully other teams...to me, that's the most frustrating. They have almost zero ability to dictate the flow of a game, unless Booker goes unconscious when shooting.

This squad might not be soft but they don’t embrace the dirty work required to win a title. And Book once again lost focus late in the game and went after someone on the Nets bench. Teams know they can get in his kitchen if he’s frustrated.

 

[Raindog]

It could be Lebron was right. The Suns defense is atrocious under Frank Vogel.

And poor defense has been far from the Suns only issue. Ballhandling/turnovers, rebounding, offensive flow, end of game management, weird lineups, inability to maintain consistent play. A lot of that speaks to coaching, especially when you're talking about a pretty veteran team, by and large.

 

[nashman]

The Lakers beat the Spurs tonight, who have lost 18 straight games.

Barely beat the Spurs actually…

 

[Carolinacacti]

Good God, at least I don't have to listen to you guys bitch about Ayton anymore. Suns will right the ship.

 

[Phrazbit]

We are a bad defensive team and we are an absolutely terrible team in the clutch.

Don't know how these problems can be fixed with this roster... I expected us to be middling on defense but being flat out trash in the clutch has been a surprise. Booker is the only guy on the entire roster with above average play making skills, if the opposition keeps him from creating then everything falls apart. Trap Booker and we end up with desperation heaves or KD dribbling into the teeth of the defense for a contested fadeaway or a turnover.

This team was supposed to be a title contender but right now they are no where near that aspiration.

Worst of all, they're boring. Not a fun team to watch in the slightest...

Durant plays a particularly joyless brand of basketball that I have never been a fan of. Slow paced, deliberate and obvious... it is like watching a robot play tic tak toe. He might make a lot of his shots but there is zero excitement in watching a dude spend 15 seconds setting up a 12 foot fadeaway that you know he has a 50% chance of making... and a 25% chance of making in the clutch.

After the low value methodical 2 point jumper there is seemingly an overwhelming chance it will be followed up by a transition 3 or uncontested layup by the opposition, because no one on this team seems to know who they should be covering.

 

[clyde2tw]

The personnel JJ assambled is good enough to win more games, despite all the injuries. No consistently coherent team play both O and D is to blame, and odd rotation decisions. On O, they still don't know how to get the guy free from body-gluing defense, to pass the ball to him easily. We are constantly forced to let Goodwin, KBD, Little to make decision as last resort. We don't set useful screens by nobody, only fake ones. OTH, we never play body-gluing D on other team's hot-hand/stars. On D, our switching rotation awareness is lacking, too often get into random 2 covering 1 situations. I really don't know what they actually work on in practices. We stay in and win games mainly via individual talent.
Yuta again was exploited on D without good shooting touch. Goodwin and Eubanks are off too. Playing them together with Beal results in disaster. Beal needs slower mesh-in. Right now, his drives into paint are not helping, without better player movement to accompany him. Metu is just inexperienced and make bonehead plays at times. KBD seems having lost confidence altogether, after all Spurs are the most methodic team in NBA.

 

[Vacard]

Do you not know that the Nets are not just a middling team? They are actually pretty good back east.

This is Beal's real 2nd game back playing with these guys -- Book especially -- and we didn't have our two best outside shooters also.

We were within 4 of a team at full health and in spite of our horrible coaching.

The Nets were not in full health

 

[Hoop Head]

Barely beat the Spurs actually…

I'm not sure what silver lining there is to the Lakers barely beating the Spurs. Wins and losses are all that matters in the standings and they won. We couldn't beat the Spurs so what does it say when another team we're battling for playoff positioning beats them.