Looking ahead to Atlanta

[Russ Smith]

how do you scheme for Vick? SF held him down, Rams got killed by him.

Seems to me that we actually "match up" well with Atlanta. what SF did was simple, they didn't rush to sack Vick, they rushed to contain him in the pocket and if he was going to run, it had to be up the middle, same way they defensed jake for years, don't let him outside of the pocket.

Vick had 6 carries, 10 yards, fumbled twice, and threw a pick. They got 4 sacks but basically coverage sacks.



Then he lights up the Rams and from what I can gather the Rams got burned repeatedly over running Vick.

In my mind the key to defending Vick is keep him in the pocket and make him throw the ball. he's not used to the WCO, he wants to run around. WE have a faster defense this year, that's clear, so we need to make him beat us with his arm, not his legs.

Comments, insults (-:

 

[SECTION 11]

http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11726&highlight=Vick


I still dunno.

 

[SECTION 11]

Don't rush anyone. Send zero on passing plays.

I dunno.

 

[JeffGollin]

Think of Michael Vick as another Marshall Faulk - only he can also pass.

Gap discipline becomes crucial. And not being so tentative breaking down that he jukes you.

I'd guess we should find ways to make him throw rather than scramble.

But let's also not forget that the Falcones are not a one-dimensional team. They have a better pass rush than we do, got Booker in a trade and have Dunn and Duckett (I believe) to lug the ball on the ground).

 

[HeavyB3]

And the Cardinals come up with a new defensive scheme. 7 linebackers and 0 linemen.

 

[joeshmo]

But let's also not forget that the Falcones are not a one-dimensional team. They have a better pass rush than we do, got Booker in a trade and have Dunn and Duckett (I believe) to lug the ball on the ground).

Booker was traded to Miami.

But yes gap control from the LB's is crucial. Plus it wouldnt hurt to have more speed at LB by having a healthy Thompson and possibly starting Hayes over McKinnon this week becuase he has much more speed.

 

[Russ Smith]

And the Cardinals come up with a new defensive scheme. 7 linebackers and 0 linemen.

Not having Dunn would be huge, Duckett is good but he's not going to bust outside on you so you pretty much worry about him between the tackles, and Vick outside.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

I'm going to the game.Maybe i'll run out of the stands and take Vick out.

 

[D-Dogg]

The thing that is scary about Vick is that he doesn't scramble to the outside as much as he hits the interior gaps like a draw play, and he does it very quickly. DE containment can sometimes hurt because it can create those middle seams.

I don't know if we can LB spy Vick while DE containing him and simply concede no pass rush, but whatever we have to do to lay a few helmets on him, we have to do it. I personally think the way to slow Vick is to hit him. Yes, easier said than done, but he plays off his incredible confidence so much that its probably the most effective way to take him out of a game. Now, actually sticking him is a lot harder than just saying you're gonna do it.

 

[kerouac9]

how do you scheme for Vick? SF held him down, Rams got killed by him.

Seems to me that we actually "match up" well with Atlanta. what SF did was simple, they didn't rush to sack Vick, they rushed to contain him in the pocket and if he was going to run, it had to be up the middle, same way they defensed jake for years, don't let him outside of the pocket.

Vick had 6 carries, 10 yards, fumbled twice, and threw a pick. They got 4 sacks but basically coverage sacks.

That's not quite how it happened. Vick was perfect for two and a half quarters, working almost exclusively out of the pocket. Threw his first bad pass mid-way through the third quarter, and the INT was a tipped ball. I think that Vick can work in the pocket, but if the Cards allow the passing/running lanes to Vick what they allowed to Brady (those being massively wide open ones), it's going to be a long, long day.

It'll also be interesting to see how Berry plays, since he'll be operating from the "strong side" now, where the left-handed Vick can see him. With the Cards rushing molasses-footed KVB from the blind side, Vick might have all day to scan the field.

Another interesting matchup problem is Macklin/Hill v. the big WR that is Brian Finneran.

 

[Russ Smith]

That's not quite how it happened. Vick was perfect for two and a half quarters, working almost exclusively out of the pocket. Threw his first bad pass mid-way through the third quarter, and the INT was a tipped ball. I think that Vick can work in the pocket, but if the Cards allow the passing/running lanes to Vick what they allowed to Brady (those being massively wide open ones), it's going to be a long, long day.
.

True, but once SF changed their scheme, Vick was shut down entirely. at the half he was 11-13 145 yards with 4 sacks.

From that point on he went 2-9 for 18 yards. Rating was 139 at the half 78.4 at the end of the game. On tv they were commenting about how the 49er DE's were no longer trying to run around the OT's they were just staying in contain lanes because Vick had effectively slid in the pocket and found passing lanes in the first half and they wanted to stop that.

It was a tale of 2 halves to be sure. I realize it's not simple and I'm sure the Rams watched the 2nd half of that game too and they weren't able to duplicate it.

I think our defense can frustrate him with speed and some big hits, but he's a great talent and you never know when as D-Dogg said he'll hit the middle and go with it anyways, like Jake's big run against SF a few years ago up the gut in SF.

 

[kerouac9]

The big thing is that they're going to have to collapse the pocket up front without allowing running lanes. The biggest thing with Vick is that he's not tall. He's listed at 6'. If you can get in his face without allowing the DEs to lose contain, you can beat him. Part of the reason that Tampa's given Vick fits is that Booger McFarland and Warren Sapp collapse the pocket so well and so fast that Mike just keeps back-tracking to find open running or passing lanes, and Simeon Rice was able to get to him. Meanwhile, the strong DTs in Carolina can't touch Mike because he finds holes around Skkorp's hero Mike Rucker.

Bryant Young and Anthony Adams were able to figure out to do the same thing in the second half of Week 1. That's how the pick happened.

This will either be Darnell Dockett's coming out party, or a game when we wonder if Wendell Bryant couldn't start at the three-technique spot. KVB probably won't be able to get to Vick's blindside, but if Kevin Schaffer can ride Bert Berry into the offensive backfield, it won't be good.

 

[conraddobler]

I'd think the biggest thing is to score first.

The game is completely different if you can get up on your opponent then you can run your entire gameplan, once you are behind by two scores you can wipe yourself with it.

I think Vick will run on us it's just a question of how much and where.

We seem to be a bend but don't break defense.


I think we will contain Atlanta enough on defense to win the game and it will be how our offense plays the determines the game just like the last two games we have played.

 

[Russ Smith]

I think we will contain Atlanta enough on defense to win the game and it will be how our offense plays the determines the game just like the last two games we have played.

bingo, we can gameplan Vick all we want but it's our offense that has us 0-2.

 

[D-Dogg]

Point well taken, and noted. And agreed with.

This offense has yet to gel. I think that they will be strong when they do, but right now our defense is making big plays when needed to help us stay in the games. If our offense has a shot late, it will again be up to them to win the game for us. I would like to get this win though...it sure would be nice to have Sportscenter raving on us shutting down Vick, etc.

 

[kerouac9]

Another key to the game: Josh McCown must take chances downfield. The Falcons have a big, physical cornerback in Aaron Beasley (6', 205) to match up with Fitz or Bryant Johnson. Jason Webster and Kevin Mathis play big, but these guys aren't fast, and their safeties (Corey Hall and Bryan Scott) are below-average.

Let's be honest: it's going to be impossible to run against Atlanta in the dome. McCown is going to have to do it with his arm. If he can get the Falcons defense on it's heels (as San Fran managed to do during their second-half comeback in Week 1), it might not matter how well Vick is playing, because Atlanta doesn't have the wideouts to win a shootout yet.

Denny: Put the 25-yard out back in the playbook. Rediscover the post. There's more to football than flanker slants and five-yard ins. The first play should be Bryant Johnson (6'3", 215) or Larry Fitzgerald (6'3", 223) on a fly pattern. Let Josh loft it up, and let one of them fight for it. They're big, and they'll win.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Another key to the game: Josh McCown must take chances downfield. The Falcons have a big, physical cornerback in Aaron Beasley (6', 205) to match up with Fitz or Bryant Johnson. Jason Webster and Kevin Mathis play big, but these guys aren't fast, and their safeties (Corey Hall and Bryan Scott) are below-average.

Let's be honest: it's going to be impossible to run against Atlanta in the dome. McCown is going to have to do it with his arm. If he can get the Falcons defense on it's heels (as San Fran managed to do during their second-half comeback in Week 1), it might not matter how well Vick is playing, because Atlanta doesn't have the wideouts to win a shootout yet.

Denny: Put the 25-yard out back in the playbook. Rediscover the post. There's more to football than flanker slants and five-yard ins. The first play should be Bryant Johnson (6'3", 215) or Larry Fitzgerald (6'3", 223) on a fly pattern. Let Josh loft it up, and let one of them fight for it. They're big, and they'll win.

Atlanta's CB' are slow and frankly not very good. Webster and Mathis are below average (especially Mathis) and get abused like Gilligan (On an Island) Beasley was once solid but the Jets ran him out last year because he has lost a step. He seems to be playing better this year but this secondary is by far the weakest this team has played thus far. They give up massive yards per game against the pass! (260ish I believe)

I agree go deep early and often and run wide, not between the tackles. I dont think it will matter much but I Know the Cards wont be able to run on the Falcons between the tackles. They are only giving up 61 yards a game rushing. 2nd in the league right now.

 

[kerouac9]

Atlanta's CB' are slow and frankly not very good. Webster and Mathis are below average (especially Mathis) and get abused like Gilligan (On an Island) Beasley was once solid but the Jets ran him out last year because he has lost a step. He seems to be playing better this year but this secondary is by far the weakest this team has played thus far. They give up massive yards per game against the pass! (260ish I believe)

I agree go deep early and often and run wide, not between the tackles. I dont think it will matter much but I Know the Cards wont be able to run on the Falcons between the tackles. They are only giving up 61 yards a game rushing. 2nd in the league right now.

The Falcons have to blitz aggressively to protect their corners. I don't know what the WR corps is showing in practice, but it doesn't seem like Josh is putting enough air under his passes to give them a chance to fight it out. They're going to have to play long ball to beat this defense. Freddie Jones in the mid-field seam might be an important pattern, but only if Green avoids sending Fitz across the middle every down.

The Falcons are pretty stout in the middle, but I'd rather take our chances against Rod Coleman, Ed Jasper, and Chris Draft than try to make plays against Patrick Kearney on one side or Keith Brooking on the other. It's not like any of our runninbacks are making it to the edge anyway, though.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

The Falcons have to blitz aggressively to protect their corners. I don't know what the WR corps is showing in practice, but it doesn't seem like Josh is putting enough air under his passes to give them a chance to fight it out. They're going to have to play long ball to beat this defense. Freddie Jones in the mid-field seam might be an important pattern, but only if Green avoids sending Fitz across the middle every down.

The Falcons are pretty stout in the middle, but I'd rather take our chances against Rod Coleman, Ed Jasper, and Chris Draft than try to make plays against Patrick Kearney on one side or Keith Brooking on the other. It's not like any of our runninbacks are making it to the edge anyway, though.

I was thinking about not running between the tackles more because the Cards interior line is not very good at all right now. But in all honesty it is the lesser of two evils. Smith at least has a little more time to be patient and pick his holes running wide but your right, we dont have a lot of speed at this position. I wouldnt count on getting a whole lot of yards rushing unless you open it up early and force the Falcons into the Nickle and run out of the shotgun. Maybe then Emmitt can break a couple


EDIT: If we ahve to count on Freddie Jones as the savior we are in trouble. He just hasnt been the TE I thought he would be when AZ signed him!~

 

[Russ Smith]

I was thinking about not running between the tackles more because the Cards interior line is not very good at all right now. But in all honesty it is the lesser of two evils. Smith at least has a little more time to be patient and pick his holes running wide but your right, we dont have a lot of speed at this position. I wouldnt count on getting a whole lot of yards rushing unless you open it up early and force the Falcons into the Nickle and run out of the shotgun. Maybe then Emmitt can break a couple


EDIT: If we ahve to count on Freddie Jones as the savior we are in trouble. He just hasnt been the TE I thought he would be when AZ signed him!~

Agreed, and everytime I glanced over at the Dallas/Cleveland game, there was either an interception, or Jason Witten plowing over some poor DB, boy that kid is TOUGH.

Add TE to the list of things we need to upgrade eventually. Jones is talented but he just doesn't do the little things you need to win games.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Add TE to the list of things we need to upgrade eventually. Jones is talented but he just doesn't do the little things you need to win games.

Most notibly block!!!

 

[kerouac9]

EDIT: If we ahve to count on Freddie Jones as the savior we are in trouble. He just hasnt been the TE I thought he would be when AZ signed him!~

Yeah, I don't know what's going on with Freddie. He's just... soft. He's not fast enough to be a Randy McMichael/Tony Gonzales-type, and not solid or tough enough to be a Jim Kleinsasser/Itula Mili-sort. Bad times.

May end up being our third-round pick next year, as Russ said. Lorenzo Diamond probably doesn't belong in the NFL.

 

[Russ Smith]

Yeah, I don't know what's going on with Freddie. He's just... soft. He's not fast enough to be a Randy McMichael/Tony Gonzales-type, and not solid or tough enough to be a Jim Kleinsasser/Itula Mili-sort. Bad times.

May end up being our third-round pick next year, as Russ said. Lorenzo Diamond probably doesn't belong in the NFL.

We should make an offer to Oakland for Teyo Johnson. He's not really a good blocker either but he got himself in Norv Turner's doghouse and now he's the #4 TE there.

He's a talented receiver.

 

[kerouac9]

We should make an offer to Oakland for Teyo Johnson. He's not really a good blocker either but he got himself in Norv Turner's doghouse and now he's the #4 TE there.

He's a talented receiver.

Didn't we have him when he was named something else... a WR in a TE body... ugh, what was that guy's name?

Besides, Teyo was a project when they drafted him in the second round in 2003. That'd be like giving up on Dennis Johnson after only two seasons... oh, wait...

 

[Russ Smith]

Didn't we have him when he was named something else... a WR in a TE body... ugh, what was that guy's name?

Besides, Teyo was a project when they drafted him in the second round in 2003. That'd be like giving up on Dennis Johnson after only two seasons... oh, wait...

They have this kid named Courtney Anderson from San Jose State who Turner loves, 6'7" 260. he's the kid who dropped a big 3rd down pasa against us in the preseason. From what I gather Turner thinks Teyo can't block, but he can catch the ball.

And then we could run the TE screen, backwards, and let Teyo throw deep to Fitz so he could get open!