Kyler + Coaching

[BritCard]

HUGE holes in his game? Really? Wake the hell up. You’ve been a Cardinal fan long enough to know that he’s the BEST young QB in Cardinal history. He took over a 3 win team & now has them at 11. Open receivers? HAHA. Not after Hop went down. ALL our receivers went MIA after Hop went out. I never said that KM doesn’t have to mature. Of course he does. He’s 24 damn years old. His skill set is 10x better than anything this franchise has ever seen from one of their young QB’s. But, the OL needs to be significantly better & he needs weapons beyond just Hop. And it would be nice if the D would occasionally stop someone. Stop the hate. It’s unbecoming of you.

The best young QB in Cardinals history is an incredibly low bar.

 

[DVontel]

What stood out about those teams BritCard named is that all of them were significantly better in the trenches. Sad.

 

[DVontel]

"Our receivers aren't great without our WR1" is something you can say about most teams. What do the Chiefs have at WR after Tyreek? Hardman didn't touch 700 yards and he's WR2. Heck Rondale Moore was only 5 yards per game less than Hardman.

The 49ers went to the SB in 2019 with Bourne, James, rookie Deebo and Sanders.

The Pats have been there and won it many times in the past 10 years with barely anyone at WR.

Loved that you ignored leaving the elite TEs out of these >>>>

 

[BritCard]

Loved that you ignored leaving the elite TEs out of these >>>>

I left them out because we have a TE that just had 952 yards on the season so Kyler already had one of those.

 

[DVontel]

I left them out because we have a TE that just had 952 yards on the season so Kyler already had one of those.

You left them out because you tried to downplay the supporting casts of those teams. We’re not dumb dude, c’mon.

And where did you even get 952 yards from lmao at least try.

 

[DVontel]

And Ertz has only had maybe 1 elite year in his entire career.

 

[tnmike]

Thank you. Most of the time I just see one liners from you, though, sarcastically making fun of one poster or another. Say what you want about me--I think "broken record" might be prominent--but I at least expound on my opinions and try to get them across. I hope to read more of your opinions, even if you disagree with mine, because that's what makes a message board fun.

My Ex was from Connecticut. She told me that once she realized that when people down south throw out the sarcasm it means they like you. She didn't say much that ever had much value but she did that one time. So maybe she was right about that. I can be pretty sarcastic some times but it is with no malice intended

 

[PACardsFan]

I'm tired of hearing this. It's the biggest load of BS going around.

Ertz had 700+ yards (952 on the season). Green had 850. Kirk was just shy of 1000. We passed in total for 4570 yards. Had Nuk stayed healthy we would have had 4 receiving options inside the top 40.

We were 11th in passing yards per game and thats with 3 games without Kyler. 5 games without Nuk. And a game against Chicago where they gave us a bunch of short fields and we hardly had to pass all game.

"Our receivers aren't great without our WR1" is something you can say about most teams. What do the Chiefs have at WR after Tyreek? Hardman didn't touch 700 yards and he's WR2. Heck Rondale Moore was only 5 yards per game less than Hardman.

There are only 3 teams in the whole league I think you can say that they have multiple high level receiver options if they lose their WR1. Tampa, Dallas and Cincy. There was absolutely nothing wrong with the receiving options Kyler had this season. Easily top 10 in the league.

The 49ers went to the SB in 2019 with Bourne, James, rookie Deebo and Sanders. The Eagles won it with Agholor and Jeffrey. The Pats have been there and won it many times in the past 10 years with barely anyone at WR. The Falcons made it with Julia and a bunch of Jags. I could go on.

Sorry man, this isn't aimed at you. I keep seeing it and I just don't agree at all.

Once Hop went down, the rest of our WR group went into the witness protection plan. Outside of Ertz, the rest of them couldn’t catch a cold down the stretch. Once Hop went down, defenses had no problem scheming for the rest of that group. Especially when they were blowing up our OL. And the SB teams you mentioned had something called a Defense. The Cardinals collapse involved many factors. The least of them was Murray. I get it. The QB always gets the most credit & the most blame. And Murray played frustrated late in the season. But, with the play of everyone around him, it shouldn’t come as a surprise for a 24 year old kid. I’m betting he’ll grow from the situation.

 

[BritCard]

You left them out because you tried to downplay the supporting casts of those teams. We’re not dumb dude, c’mon.

And where did you even get 952 yards from lmao at least try.

I got 952 from here when I was looking up where our receivers ranked. But your right, it's wrong. It was about 765.

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He was TE10 in the league last year. Are you suggesting had we Kittle or Kelce that would have been the difference and SB here we come? Because if not, what's your point? Which is why I focused on the receivers.

The "Our receiving options suck without Hopkins" argument is pure garbage.

Through weeks 1-8 Kyler had 264 passing yards per game.
Through weeks 9-11 with no Kyler or Nuk McCoy had 232 per game, but that was really dragged down by 104 vs Panthers.
Through weeks 14-18 without Nuk (or with a hobbled one) Kyler had 268 yards per game.

I've omitted week 13 vs Bears because it was a freak game where Nuk played but we only had to pass 120 yards.

So the passing game in terms of yardage saw no drop off without Nuk.

Are we a better team with Nuk? Of course. Who wouldn't be? But the other options are not the garbage they are made out to be.

 

[BritCard]

Once Hop went down, the rest of our WR group went into the witness protection plan. Outside of Ertz, the rest of them couldn’t catch a cold down the stretch. Once Hop went down, defenses had no problem scheming for the rest of that group. Especially when they were blowing up our OL. And the SB teams you mentioned had something called a Defense. The Cardinals collapse involved many factors. The least of them was Murray. I get it. The QB always gets the most credit & the most blame. And Murray played frustrated late in the season. But, with the play of everyone around him, it shouldn’t come as a surprise for a 24 year old kid. I’m betting he’ll grow from the situation.

If they went into witness protection how did we have more passing yards per game down the stretch than through weeks 1-8? Who was catching those balls?

Kirk went from 52 YPG to 70 YPG.
Ertz went from 45 to 63
Green went from 50 to 59
Conner went from 13 to 47
Edmonds went from 26 to 50 (Limited games)

The receivers we had stepped up in the last 5 games to replace Nuk best anyone could. But Kyler was poor, don't pretend he wasn't. We can all see it. Yes, he threw those passes for those same yards but he just wasn't the same player. Especially in the clutch moments. he just wasn't making the same high quality throws. We could all see that.

And yes, defense had something to do with it as well. The defense was nowhere near as good through the last 5 games, but also the offense dropped off by about 30% in points scored.

(For the Kirk is a JAG people when Kirk became defacto WR1 his 70 yards per game would give him 1200 on the season)

 

[DVontel]

Are you suggesting had we Kittle or Kelce that would have been the difference and SB here we come?

Here is this typical hyperbolic statement I was waiting for from you. Anyways, Kittle & Kelce would’ve been a much bigger boost to our offense. Considering, y’know, they’re much better players & offer a lot more than just catching? Do I think they were the answer for a SB? No, because we’re bad in important areas like the trenches.

Which is why I focused on the receivers.

So, why did you hit it off with bringing up a TE first? Do TEs not also receive the ball as well?

But the other options are not the garbage they are made out to be.

They cannot be garbage while also not being good. I think everyone here outside of you views Kirk no more than a high-end WR3/okay WR2. AJ on the downside of his career. Rondale being a rookie. You yourself even said Wesley was terrible. Ertz is average & he never was a blocker.

I don’t think that’s a garbage room, but it’s certainly anything to write home about at all. It’s ordinary.

 

[PACardsFan]

The best young QB in Cardinals history is an incredibly low bar.

Yes. That may be the case when comparing to other successful franchises. But, regardless, it’s a fact. Murray was drafted by the worst team in the NFL. And the worst Cardinal team that I have seen in my almost 60 years of watching this franchise. Only a few of the truly great ones fall into the same category of being drafted by the worst team: Peyton Manning & maybe Troy Aikman. Aikman was also blessed to have weapons everywhere. But studs like Warner, Big Ben, Wilson, Steve Young, Favre, Rodgers, Elway, Staubach, Marino, Brees, Montana & Brady were all brought into organizations that were already winning or very close to it.

Of the more recent QB’s, only Burrow was drafted by the worst team in the NFL. And kudos to him. He’s also blessed with an excellent WR group. But, we didn’t pass on Burrow to get Murray. The same applies for Allen & even Herbert. Murray has gotten better every season. In the NFL QB Index, this is how he has fared:

2019 - 13
2020 - 10
2021 - 7

Burrow
2020 - 18
2021 - 4

Allen
2018 - 32
2019 - 18
2020 - 5
2021 - 6

Herbert
2020 - 9
2021 - 3

Finishing 7 among 32 is fantastic considering he lost his #1 WR by week 8 & played behind a makeshift OL pretty much all season. Can he be better? Absolutely. And I have no doubt he will be as long as weapons are put around him & our D gets better.

 

[BritCard]

I think everyone here outside of you views Kirk no more than a high-end WR3/okay WR2.

I can't help it if people are wrong. He had the 3rd most yards of any WR2 in the league. That's clearly not "high end WR3/Okay WR2" territory. In the games Nuk was out he had 70 yards per game. Enough for 1200 yards over a season if asked to do that role full time.

I get it, all people remember are his drops and that erases everything else. Chase had 8.6% drops last year. Deebo had 8.3%. AJ Brown 7.6%. Kelce 7.5%. CeeDee 6.7%. DJ Moore 6.1%.

Kirk had 5.8%.

I don't even really like him. Dude looks like a human size bobble head. But he's way better than people here give him credit for.

I don’t think that’s a garbage room, but it’s certainly anything to write home about at all. It’s ordinary.

I was literally discussing it with someone who said it was a garbage room. It wasn't. It wasn't ordinary either. It was by any metric above average.

If you took away every WR1 from every team I'd argue what we had remaining was top 10.

 

[BritCard]

Yes. That may be the case when comparing to other successful franchises. But, regardless, it’s a fact. Murray was drafted by the worst team in the NFL. And the worst Cardinal team that I have seen in my almost 60 years of watching this franchise. Only a few of the truly great ones fall into the same category of being drafted by the worst team: Peyton Manning & maybe Troy Aikman. Aikman was also blessed to have weapons everywhere. But studs like Warner, Big Ben, Wilson, Steve Young, Favre, Rodgers, Elway, Staubach, Marino, Brees, Montana & Brady were all brought into organizations that were already winning or very close to it.

Of the more recent QB’s, only Burrow was drafted by the worst team in the NFL. And kudos to him. He’s also blessed with an excellent WR group. But, we didn’t pass on Burrow to get Murray. The same applies for Allen & even Herbert. Murray has gotten better every season. In the NFL QB Index, this is how he has fared:

2019 - 13
2020 - 10
2021 - 7

Burrow
2020 - 18
2021 - 4

Allen
2018 - 32
2019 - 18
2020 - 5
2021 - 6

Herbert
2020 - 9
2021 - 3

Finishing 7 among 32 is fantastic considering he lost his #1 WR by week 8 & played behind a makeshift OL pretty much all season. Can he be better? Absolutely. And I have no doubt he will be as long as weapons are put around him & our D gets better.

What this mainly tells me is that he's behind guys that he's supposed to be better than. He was the #1 pick. There's no argument that he isn't good. He clearly is. He's just not as good as he should be or most of us expected him to be at this stage.

The QB index is looking at the round. The problem many people have with Kyler is that he's very weak in a couple of major areas. He's awful in important games, he's in Cousins territory in Primetime games. And his leadership/body language is really poor. But nobody doubts his physical talent.

 

[PACardsFan]

What this mainly tells me is that he's behind guys that he's supposed to be better than. He was the #1 pick. There's no argument that he isn't good. He clearly is. He's just not as good as he should be or most of us expected him to be at this stage.

The QB index is looking at the round. The problem many people have with Kyler is that he's very weak in a couple of major areas. He's awful in important games, he's in Cousins territory in Primetime games. And his leadership/body language is really poor. But nobody doubts his physical talent.

He was the #1 pick an an ENTIRELY different class as those guys. He may not have been #1 if they all came out at the same time. With weapons early on, they were winning & very little if any negative body language. With nothing around him on EITHER side of the ball due to injuries, etc, yes, the frustration levels did show. And they should for a 24 year old who ONLY wants to win. Do you remember the frustration levels of Peyton Manning when he lost? How about Elway? They all got frustrated. Especially in their youth. He’s 24 & you’re talking about how he has played in big games? He’s only been in 1 playoff game. As far as the regular season goes, every game counts the same. I’d hold off on saying he doesn’t perform in prime time until there’s actually a real sample to go by. He did beat 4 playoff teams this year & the SB champs.

 

[GoldGloveschmidt]

So KM bears no blame? lol Okay. I can't even respectfully disagree with this post. KM has HUGE holes in his game at this point--inability to find the pocket, unwillingness to take a hit/doing anything possible to avoid contact, unable to find open receivers, unwillingness to do the film work--but yeah, let's just blame it all on everybody else.

EVERYBODY bears blame in this. Keim is awful, I don't like KK, AND KM has to commit to making major changes. If he doesn't mature, he'll be nothing more than a statsy flash in the pan.

Exaggerate much? We have one of the best QBs in the league and you act like he's Daniel Jones. You take 1 play where you see something that's not perfect and try to extrapolate it to his entire game. Unable to find receivers? Lol. Inability to step into a pocket?

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[cardpa]

Once Hop went down, the rest of our WR group went into the witness protection plan. Outside of Ertz, the rest of them couldn’t catch a cold down the stretch. Once Hop went down, defenses had no problem scheming for the rest of that group. Especially when they were blowing up our OL. And the SB teams you mentioned had something called a Defense. The Cardinals collapse involved many factors. The least of them was Murray. I get it. The QB always gets the most credit & the most blame. And Murray played frustrated late in the season. But, with the play of everyone around him, it shouldn’t come as a surprise for a 24 year old kid. I’m betting he’ll grow from the situation.

According to Pro Football Reference the Cardinals defense ranked 11 and the Bengals were ranked 17. I don't think this argument holds much water.

 

[dscher]

Murray was drafted by the worst team in the NFL. And the worst Cardinal team that I have seen in my almost 60 years of watching this franchise.

This. How spoiled we've been since. Sheesh. Even our late season collapses have much less painful than those nightmare seasons IMO..

 

[Jetstream Green]

What stood out about those teams BritCard named is that all of them were significantly better in the trenches. Sad.

This, it's real simple our trenches suck. Our OL is easier to fix short term because it's one guard position which is totally screwing us because a OL works as a whole. DL, we have for more issues. We have one guy in Watt trying to hold the whole damn thing down at his age and he just can't. Our athletic LBs, our safeties not having to cover the DL's arse after a four yard run, our HBs having options to make just that one cut, our diminutive but highly talented QB having a running game and protection at the interior to throw... and freaking Keim who was on the OL is incapable of finding the big guys up front, and should be out of office now

 

[Jetstream Green]

According to Pro Football Reference the Cardinals defense ranked 11 and the Bengals were ranked 17. I don't think this argument holds much water.

Which is further proof that these stat based groups are not the end all... the numbers do not mean Jack or even have Jill's number when our defense was being gashed constantly by even subpar makeshift lines

 

[Stout]

Exaggerate much? We have one of the best QBs in the league and you act like he's Daniel Jones. You take 1 play where you see something that's not perfect and try to extrapolate it to his entire game. Unable to find receivers? Lol. Inability to step into a pocket?

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What's funny is that you flipped out about a pretend point about 1 play (where did I say it was 1 play? It was clearly many plays), and then you rebutted by posting...1 play lol Thank you for destroying your own argument. That was easy!

 

[GoldGloveschmidt]

What's funny is that you flipped out about a pretend point about 1 play (where did I say it was 1 play? It was clearly many plays), and then you rebutted by posting...1 play lol Thank you for destroying your own argument. That was easy!

Except my stance is supported by any measurable criteria. Kyler is universally regarded as a top 8 quarterback and is top 5 in a ton of categories. Your assertion that kyler has huge holes in his game, can't use a pocket, can't find a receiver, etc is just your own personal overreaction.

 

[PACardsFan]

According to Pro Football Reference the Cardinals defense ranked 11 and the Bengals were ranked 17. I don't think this argument holds much water.

They’re full of crap. Our D performed well early on, especially when Watt had some impact. But, once Our DL & secondary was decimated with injuries, then we couldn’t stop anyone. Conversely, the Bengals D struggled early on, yet was THE reason why they actually got to the SB. The Bengals did a great job of shutting down the run, while our D couldn‘t stop the 76 Buccaneers from running all over us.

 

[Stout]

Except my stance is supported by any measurable criteria. Kyler is universally regarded as a top 8 quarterback and is top 5 in a ton of categories. Your assertion that kyler has huge holes in his game, can't use a pocket, can't find a receiver, etc is just your own personal overreaction.

Kirk Cousins. Argument over.

 

[BritCard]

They’re full of crap. Our D performed well early on, especially when Watt had some impact. But, once Our DL & secondary was decimated with injuries, then we couldn’t stop anyone. Conversely, the Bengals D struggled early on, yet was THE reason why they actually got to the SB. The Bengals did a great job of shutting down the run, while our D couldn‘t stop the 76 Buccaneers from running all over us.

Was it? In their last 6 games they gave up 41 to the Chargers at home. Then got beat at home giving up 26 to the Niners in the next game.

Then they played a bad Broncos team with Lock at QB and won 15-10. Then beat the Ravens without Lamar 41-21, an offensive win. Then beat the Chiefs 34-31, another offensive win. Then lost to the Brown's 21-16.

The only game there you could say the defense won the game for them was the Broncos. Otherwise they either lost, or it was an obvious offensive win.

Look at our results through the same period and the difference was our offense.

The defense owned the Bears, and obvious defensive win.

Lost to the Rams 30-23 but 7 of those were a pick 6. We threw an EZ INT and had several EZ trips the offense screwed up. That game could easily have been 35-23. The offense blew it.

The Lions loss was offensive. Sure, the defense gave up 30 but the offense went several 3 and outs and the defense couldn't catch a breather. The O sucked that game.

We held the Colts to 22 but the offense could only put up 16. Another offensive loss.

We then beat the Cowboys, played well on both sides. Then at home vs the Seahawks in the last game was the only loss I'd say was more on the D than the O.