ESPN: Manning to AZ best fit for all

[AsUdUdE]

Another ESPN article, using Steak or Flounder as the premise for debating which teams Manning will consider..

Calls Arizona- "The best cut of Beef on the menu"..

I love to continue to see this momentum

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7561503/nfl-manning-choose

 

[Dr. Jones]

I do not know who Ashley Fox is but if she makes this statement:

Russ Grimm is as good an offensive line coach as you will find anywhere.

It better be followed by a laugh track.

 

[splitsecond]

well duh

 

[AsUdUdE]

I do not know who Ashley Fox is but if she makes this statement:

It better be followed by a laugh track.

Yes, WE know this, but hopefully Manning buys into the THEORY of Russ Grimm, which is he is as good as it gets...

It is all about perception, not reality

 

[Darkside]

People rip on Grimm, but people also fail to recognize that he's working with a serious lack of talent. He's not putting the line together, he's being told to teach the line he's given. I'm really frustrated reading that he's a bad offensive line coach from dudes who don't know a thing about offensive line play, or offensive line coaching.

He's trying to coach up some seriously bad offensive lineman. Most of these dudes wouldn't even be starting for other teams, some wouldn't even be backups. He's told to make it work, told to coach them up, told to make do.

Truth is, if you have a HOF offensive lineman coaching your O-line, that's what I'd do also, to be honest, I'd get scrubs and ask a HOF'er to coach them into competence; not brilliance, not greatness, but competence. That's what Grimm has done with the lack of talent on our O-line. You guys can bang on Grimm all you want, but he's doing what he can with the crap he's given. Not one of them should even be starting anywhere.

 

[Paso Fino]

People rip on Grimm, but people also fail to recognize that he's working with a serious lack of talent. He's not putting the line together, he's being told to teach the line he's given. I'm really frustrated reading that he's a bad offensive line coach from dudes who don't know a thing about offensive line play, or offensive line coaching.

He's trying to coach up some seriously bad offensive lineman. Most of these dudes wouldn't even be starting for other teams, some wouldn't even be backups. He's told to make it work, told to coach them up, told to make do.

Truth is, if you have a HOF offensive lineman coaching your O-line, that's what I'd do also, to be honest, I'd get scrubs and ask a HOF'er to coach them into competence; not brilliance, not greatness, but competence. That's what Grimm has done with the lack of talent on our O-line. You guys can bang on Grimm all you want, but he's doing what he can with the crap he's given. Not one of them should even be starting anywhere.

Who is it that is telling him to make it work, to coach them up, to make do. If they are as bad as you say they are (and I think some of them are), why hasn't some one done something about it. Why hasn't he spoken up and said, "This is stupid."

 

[Darkside]

Who is it that is telling him to make it work, to coach them up, to make do. If they are as bad as you say they are (and I think some of them are), why hasn't some one done something about it. Why hasn't he spoken up and said, "This is stupid."

The head coach obviously, and probably Graves, in tandem with Whisenhunt. And because that's his job, to coach. Is he supposed to whine and cry like ya'll? That's not what coaches do and certainly not what HOF'ers do.

I said in my original post, if you have a HOF offensive lineman coaching your line, it's best to get lesser talent (in my opinion) and have them coach them, which he is doing. If you're going to get, or draft, all pro's, you don't need to pay a HOF offensive line coach because they're already good.

And I don't say our offensive line is bad, they are bad. There's not a one of them that would start for any other team. Grimm has done a fine job coaching this trash up to mediocrity.

(Edit: and I have to add, you're acting like it's some kind of failure to get dudes on the O-line, and my opinion is it's working like designed. You want to blame Whis or Graves, or Grimm, and I'm telling you, in my opinion, the design is to get crap and have Grimm coach them to mediocrity, which he's done. It's what I would do. If you're going to draft badasses, on the Oline, then you don't need a HOF coach for the Oline. Only reason you need one is to coach up a pile of crap, which is what Grimm is doing. There's only so much money, you tell me where it should be spent: you want to keep WR's, DE's, LB's or buy a kickass O lineman? I think you pay a HOF line coach and coach up a pile of crap so you can afford skill positions. It's by design, even if you and others don't like it)

 

[Dr. Jones]

People rip on Grimm, but people also fail to recognize that he's working with a serious lack of talent. He's not putting the line together, he's being told to teach the line he's given. I'm really frustrated reading that he's a bad offensive line coach from dudes who don't know a thing about offensive line play, or offensive line coaching.

He's trying to coach up some seriously bad offensive lineman. Most of these dudes wouldn't even be starting for other teams, some wouldn't even be backups. He's told to make it work, told to coach them up, told to make do.

Truth is, if you have a HOF offensive lineman coaching your O-line, that's what I'd do also, to be honest, I'd get scrubs and ask a HOF'er to coach them into competence; not brilliance, not greatness, but competence. That's what Grimm has done with the lack of talent on our O-line. You guys can bang on Grimm all you want, but he's doing what he can with the crap he's given. Not one of them should even be starting anywhere.

IIRC HE wanted Levi. Went to his predraft workouts and "saw something".

And HE saw something in Keith and wanted to "Coach him up".

I have no faith in his scouting/projecting ability or his coaching ability. I cant think of any lineman who got markedly better under his tutelage in Arizona.

But I get your point..... If it helps us get Peyton..... I'll let them believe what they want. lol

 

[TigToad]

IIRC HE wanted Levi. Went to his predraft workouts and "saw something".

And HE saw something in Keith and wanted to "Coach him up".

I have no faith in his scouting/projecting ability or his coaching ability. I cant think of any lineman who got markedly better under his tutelage in Arizona.

But I get your point..... If it helps us get Peyton..... I'll let them believe what they want. lol

Lyle Sendlein has gotten better under Grimm. Not that I don't agree with you. I certainly don't see the talent evaluation piece, whether that is Russ's fault or Graves, or Whis or a combination. We seriously lack talent.

 

[Darkside]

IIRC HE wanted Levi. Went to his predraft workouts and "saw something".

And HE saw something in Keith and wanted to "Coach him up".

I have no faith in his scouting/projecting ability or his coaching ability. I cant think of any lineman who got markedly better under his tutelage in Arizona.

But I get your point..... If it helps us get Peyton..... I'll let them believe what they want. lol

Really, you don't think Levi or Keith has improved at all? First of all, Levi is in the wrong position, out of necessity, and that's something that had to be done. And Keith is one of our best offensive lineman when he's healthy. Doesn't make him good, it makes him the best out of a pile of sh*t.

Levi in particular is under-rated. He's primarily a run blocker, and primarily on the right side, rather than the left, but by necessity he had to be moved to the left side.

To be honest, I don't really care if you have faith in his scouting or projecting or anything else. He went to the HOF as an offensive lineman. He's one of the Hogs man. Whereas you merely spend time criticizing something you obviously don't understand. I trust his analysis alot more than yours, to be frank.

You're talking about not seeing any improvement, how much do you even watch the Olineman during a game? Aside from some idiot getting beat? What do you know about foot placement, hip rotation, center of gravity, holding and leverage? Please do share. I would appreciate it if you could enlighten the rest of us.

 

[Darkside]

Lyle Sendlein has gotten better under Grimm. Not that I don't agree with you. I certainly don't see the talent evaluation piece, whether that is Russ's fault or Graves, or Whis or a combination. We seriously lack talent.

We lack massive talent, but that has little to do with Grimm. Grimm works with what he's given, and at most he gives an evaluation of a pile of crap he's given to choose from. From there he works to improve that pile of crap into a larger dunghill.

 

[Darkside]

We should also note that when it comes to improving players, when you're given players with a lack of talent, their ceiling for improvement is short. Some people say, "He didn't improve..." such and such, but the fact is, when you're dealing with poor talent, that ceiling is small. Grimm could have improved dudes to the best of their ability, and just because he didn't make them all pro doesn't mean he didn't take them as far as they could go.

 

[AsUpRoDiGy]

We should also note that when it comes to improving players, when you're given players with a lack of talent, their ceiling for improvement is short. Some people say, "He didn't improve..." such and such, but the fact is, when you're dealing with poor talent, that ceiling is small. Grimm could have improved dudes to the best of their ability, and just because he didn't make them all pro doesn't mean he didn't take them as far as they could go.

Kudos to Grimm then for selecting such horrible talent and thinking he can "coach them up". Being a coach isn't just the ability to teach, it's also the ability to know 'who' can play and be successful, which is where Grimm struggles significantly.

 

[187]

I said in my original post, if you have a HOF offensive lineman coaching your line, it's best to get lesser talent (in my opinion) and have them coach them, which he is doing. If you're going to get, or draft, all pro's, you don't need to pay a HOF offensive line coach because they're already good.

If that is the strategy our FO is using to build the OL it is failing miserably. We should get/draft crappy players and someday hope they turn into not so crappy players? How about we draft good talent and put together a good line instead of getting crappy talent and putting together a crappy line? Makes zero sense.

 

[Darkside]

Kudos to Grimm then for selecting such horrible talent and thinking he can "coach them up". Being a coach isn't just the ability to teach, it's also the ability to know 'who' can play and be successful, which is where Grimm struggles significantly.

Perhaps but I don't think you or I can judge that. Grimm doesn't draft dudes. He's not putting names on the draft board. He's coaching who we get. I don't know how many times I have to say this, but Grimm is coaching who's placed in front of him.

Grimm doesn't struggle with who can play and be successful, that's ridiculous. If he had his choice I'm sure he'd pick the best offensive lineman available, and coach them up. It's not his choice.

If anyone thinks Grimm doesn't recognize great offensive lineman you're crazy. We didn't hire Grimm to coach great offensive lineman. We hired him to coach terrible offensive lineman. I said that earlier, but nobody actually reads.

 

[Darkside]

If that is the strategy our FO is using to build the OL it is failing miserably. We should get/draft crappy players and someday hope they turn into not so crappy players? How about we draft good talent and put together a good line instead of getting crappy talent and putting together a crappy line? Makes zero sense.

Sure, that's one way to go. Then we have no money for Fitz, or DWash, or Campbell. I said this earlier. Where do you want to spend your money. Coaches don't count against the salary cap, so we hired a HOF'er, and expect him to coach crap, by design. Would you rather us have a kickass Oline, but no Fitz? No 1000 yard RB? No DWash? Pick your poison dude. You make zero sense. The plan they have makes total sense to me. With a great Oline and nothing else, we're like Carolina before Cam Newton.

 

[kerouac9]

(Edit: and I have to add, you're acting like it's some kind of failure to get dudes on the O-line, and my opinion is it's working like designed. You want to blame Whis or Graves, or Grimm, and I'm telling you, in my opinion, the design is to get crap and have Grimm coach them to mediocrity, which he's done. It's what I would do. If you're going to draft badasses, on the Oline, then you don't need a HOF coach for the Oline. Only reason you need one is to coach up a pile of crap, which is what Grimm is doing. There's only so much money, you tell me where it should be spent: you want to keep WR's, DE's, LB's or buy a kickass O lineman? I think you pay a HOF line coach and coach up a pile of crap so you can afford skill positions. It's by design, even if you and others don't like it)

Then you weren't paying attention when Grimm was OL coach in Pittsburgh. Of his 5 offensive linemen with the Steelers, exactly 1 wasn't a first- or second-round pick.

 

[Darkside]

Then you weren't paying attention when Grimm was OL coach in Pittsburgh. Of his 5 offensive linemen with the Steelers, exactly 1 wasn't a first- or second-round pick.

Apparently you weren't paying attention when I said that was our strategy, you know, the Cardinals, who he coaches for now. You dig?

 

[MrYeahBut]

Really, you don't think Levi or Keith has improved at all? First of all, Levi is in the wrong position, out of necessity, and that's something that had to be done. And Keith is one of our best offensive lineman when he's healthy. Doesn't make him good, it makes him the best out of a pile of sh*t.

Levi in particular is under-rated. He's primarily a run blocker, and primarily on the right side, rather than the left, but by necessity he had to be moved to the left side.

To be honest, I don't really care if you have faith in his scouting or projecting or anything else. went to the HOF as an offensive lineman. He's one of the Hogs man. Whereas you merely spend time criticizing something you obviously don't understand. I trust his analysis alot more than yours, to be frank.

You're talking about not seeing any improvement, how much do you even watch the Olineman during a game? Aside from some idiot getting beat? What do you know about foot placement, hip rotation, center of gravity, holding and leverage? Please do share. I would appreciate it if you could enlighten the rest of us.

Being in the HOF doesn't automatically make you a good coach...

Sincerely,

Greene, Mean Joe

 

[AsUpRoDiGy]

Perhaps but I don't think you or I can judge that. Grimm doesn't draft dudes. He's not putting names on the draft board. He's coaching who we get. I don't know how many times I have to say this, but Grimm is coaching who's placed in front of him.

Grimm doesn't struggle with who can play and be successful, that's ridiculous. If he had his choice I'm sure he'd pick the best offensive lineman available, and coach them up. It's not his choice.

If anyone thinks Grimm doesn't recognize great offensive lineman you're crazy. We didn't hire Grimm to coach great offensive lineman. We hired him to coach terrible offensive lineman. I said that earlier, but nobody actually reads.

Do you really think that Whiz/Graves don't consult with Grimm on which O-Lineman they should pursue? You can't be serious. Grimm was the individual who persuaded Whiz that he could coach up Levi Brown, and that he was "more impressed" with Brown over Joe Thomas. Keith was also another suggestion of Grimm's -- he admired Keith's athleticism, and Whiz listened to his advice which lead to him being drafted. How did that work out? Not too well. When you take a look at Grimm's tenure in Pitt also, their O-Line was consistently one of the worst pass blocking O-Lines in the league, with an entirely different group of players, so obviously there's a common denominator. As far as I'm concerned, the biggest contribution he's made has been throwing balls over Fitz's head, but you can't applaud him for consistently producing one of the worst O-Lines in the league, year after year.

 

[Darkside]

Being in the HOF doesn't automatically make you a good coach...

Sincerely,

Greene, Mean Joe

You could add Mike Singletary in there. Or Jim Zorn (not sure if anyone remembers him). Fair enough. My point was that I trust his knowledge more than some guy coming at me on a message board.

 

[MrYeahBut]

You could add Mike Singletary in there. Or Jim Zorn (not sure if anyone remembers him). Fair enough. My point was that I trust his knowledge more than some guy coming at me on a message board.

Not trying to pick a fight or anything, but that goes both ways.

 

[187]

Sure, that's one way to go. Then we have no money for Fitz, or DWash, or Campbell. I said this earlier. Where do you want to spend your money. Coaches don't count against the salary cap, so we hired a HOF'er, and expect him to coach crap, by design. Would you rather us have a kickass Oline, but no Fitz? No 1000 yard RB? No DWash? Pick your poison dude. You make zero sense. The plan they have makes total sense to me. With a great Oline and nothing else, we're like Carolina before Cam Newton.

I'm not suggesting we sink a ton of money into getting marquee oline FA's or spend every 1st and 2nd round pick on the line, I just want a left tackle that can hold up in pass protection and won't get our QB killed. Our tackle situation is the biggest issue with the line, they suck in pass protection. The interior of the line is at the least serviceable. I don't think it is asking too much of the franchise to draft an OT in the first 2 or 3 rounds when that has been a glaring issue since Gandy left town. But hey, if they are happy with drafting turds late in the draft and letting Grimm polish them into slightly shinier looking turds who get our QB's killed, cool. That is a great way to go about business in a league that is being dominated by passing.

And fwiw, I would give up Beanie for a solid LT any day of the friggin week. 1000 yard rushers are a dime a dozen, quality LT's are not.

 

[Darkside]

Do you really think that Whiz/Graves don't consult with Grimm on which O-Lineman they should pursue? You can't be serious. Grimm was the individual who persuaded Whiz that he could coach up Levi Brown, and that he was "more impressed" with Brown over Joe Thomas. Keith was also another suggestion of Grimm's -- he admired Keith's athleticism, and Whiz listened to his advice which lead to him being drafted. How did that work out? Not too well. When you take a look at Grimm's tenure in Pitt also, their O-Line was consistently one of the worst pass blocking O-Lines in the league, with an entirely different group of players, so obviously there's a common denominator. As far as I'm concerned, the biggest contribution he's made has been throwing balls over Fitz's head, but you can't applaud him for consistently producing one of the worst O-Lines in the league, year after year.

I think he's got some input, as I said, he gets to pick the best out of a crap of choices. Look, I'm not saying he's blameless, I'm merely saying he isn't the problem with the O-line. People get on Grimm without having a clue, any freaking clue whatsoever, what they're talking about.

I'll say again though, Grimm isn't the one putting up draft picks on their board. When they want to draft an O-lineman, in whatever round, then sure they talk to him and get input, obviously, but he's left with crap. And the Levi Brown pick, show me where Grimm made that pick, because it didn't happen. I'd like a link. Everything I've read suggests that was a coaches pick, over AP.

You talk about his tenure with Pitt, didn't they win a SB with him, with one of the worst Olines in football, as you put it? Didn't Gerome Bettis have one of his best years in Pitt under Russ Grimm? He did. And he went out in style, winning a SB.

When you talk about throwing balls over Fitz head I have no clue what that has to do with the O line. I won't defend our O line because it's crap, as I've said, but Fitz being overthrown isn't Grimm's fault. You're reaching man.

You guys can blame Grimm for anything, and that's cool. It's just another topic. Next week we'll be arguing about how Whis sucks, or Graves sucks. But you know what I really enjoy? The fact that you ****'s expect to win now, instead of the loser mentality before 07 and 08. Carry on.

 

[Darkside]

Not trying to pick a fight or anything, but that goes both ways.

Oh totally. Very much agree. I'm just as much a ******* as the next guy, sometimes more so. There's dudes on here that have watched football longer than I've been alive and just laugh and laugh at my (and others) idiocy. No doubt.