Durant to Suns

[Cheesebeef]

Rudy Tomjanovich and Paul Westhead.

Rudy T wasn’t a particularly good head coach… and got by on overwhelming talent? Really… with a Rockets team that only had ONE All-Star on it?

And if you have to go back 40 YEARS to prove your point with Westhead you’ve basically just proved mine.

 

[Hoop Head]

So if Coach of the Year is a measure of a good coach then we got one already. Why are we discussing getting someone else? Wouldn't it be harder to get a new coach to win COY than retain the COY we already have?

 

[Cheesebeef]

So if Coach of the Year is a measure of a good coach then we got one already.

It’s one measure, yes.

But a really good coach for me has also done well in multiple stops, creating contenders wherever he’s gone, if not winning the title.

Why are we discussing getting someone else? Wouldn't it be harder to get a new coach to win COY than retain the COY we already have?

We’re discussing it because even though most of us believe we have a good coach, we also believe we don’t have a GREAT coach. And the overwhelming majority of the time, titles are won by great talent and great coaching.

This team IS talented enough to be one of the exceptions to the rule, but if healthy and they lose, that’s going to make Monty look terrible… for the third year in a row in the playoffs.

I think Monty is the equivalent of the Del Harris/Doug Collins/Brian Hills of the world. Good coaches that can get their team to a certain point, but not over the hump when he has to match wits and make adjustments when an opposing coach figures us out.

 

[Proximo]

Lol… Frank Vogel made the Pacers a legit title contender, taking the Heat Super Team to 7 and 6 games when their second best player was Roy Hibbert. Also won Coach Of The Year before ever hitting the Lakers. The idea that he’s not particularly good is laughable.

Doc is a good, not great Coach. Anyone who could get that woeful Orlando team totally bereft of talent to a .500 record or that old bag of bones to a Game 7 of the peak Kobe/Pau Lakers team is a good coach.

Budholzer won 60 games and Coach Of The Year with the freaking HAWKS who’s best player was Al Horford and IMMEDIATELY turned the Bucks into contenders after having previously been listless under Jason Kidd.

Every single one of those guys won Coach Of The Year BEFORE they even got to the franchise they won a title with. That doesn’t happen unless you’re a baseline good coach.

Now, I can see arguments against ALL of those guys being great coaches, but the idea that none of them are particularly good is an argument without evidence.

Well, let me put it this way. Monty is at least as good as all 3 of those guys.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Rudy T wasn’t a particularly good head coach… and got by on overwhelming talent? Really… with a Rockets team that only had ONE All-Star on it?

And if you have to go back 40 YEARS to prove your point with Westhead you’ve basically just proved mine.

I didn't comment on your point because I think it's accurate in general, just not as an absolute. Coaching matters.

 

[Muggz]

I can't do it so I'll let Monte, for now.
Love the guy
Don't love his coaching maybe 25% of the time.
Can't think of someone I'd want to replace him with and Nash is circling like a Vulture.
Be happy with what we have

 

[Proximo]

Rudy T wasn’t a particularly good head coach… and got by on overwhelming talent? Really… with a Rockets team that only had ONE All-Star on it?

And if you have to go back 40 YEARS to prove your point with Westhead you’ve basically just proved mine.

You must not have ever seen those Rockets teams play.

Olajawon was the best player in the league in those title years. The rest of the team was extremely solid - think Duncan era spurs.

 

[Covert Rain]

I think this year will go a long way determining Monty's tenure here. If he brings a title all this talk mostly goes away. I think it's fair to question if Monty is good enough to win a title considering 2 years ago and last year's team record but falling short. It's fair. However, winning a title changes the narrative a bit. IMO, Monty's legacy as a coach is now on the line with getting Durant.

 

[BooksOrangePlanet]

Lol… Frank Vogel made the Pacers a legit title contender, taking the Heat Super Team to 7 and 6 games when their second best player was Roy Hibbert. Also won Coach Of The Year before ever hitting the Lakers. The idea that he’s not particularly good is laughable.

Doc is a good, not great Coach. Anyone who could get that woeful Orlando team totally bereft of talent to a .500 record or that old bag of bones to a Game 7 of the peak Kobe/Pau Lakers team is a good coach.

Budholzer won 60 games and Coach Of The Year with the freaking HAWKS who’s best player was Al Horford and IMMEDIATELY turned the Bucks into contenders after having previously been listless under Jason Kidd.

Every single one of those guys won Coach Of The Year BEFORE they even got to the franchise they won a title with. That doesn’t happen unless you’re a baseline good coach.

Now, I can see arguments against ALL of those guys being great coaches, but the idea that none of them are particularly good is an argument without evidence.

They all won Coach of the Year before winning a title??? I think the Beefmeister may be on to something here. And I bet they didn't even have a top 5 player (of all time) added to the roster in between the COY awards and their Championships! I'm with you man, Monty Williams FTW!

 

[Cheesebeef]

You must not have ever seen those Rockets teams play.

Olajawon was the best player in the league in those title years. The rest of the team was extremely solid - think Duncan era spurs.

LOL… first, The rest of those teams were solid? His starters around him were Vernon Maxwell, Kenny Smith, Otis Thorpe and CHUCKY FREAKING BROWN for their first title.

That is EASILY the worst starting five in NBA Championship history. They had a solid yet wildly inconsistent rookie Cassel off the bench and Horry as a rookie role player and Elie as an irritant. But that was IT.

The next year, they remade their team on the fly and he figured out how to integrate Drexler into the mix and then went on the road in every series to beat a 61 win team Jazz team, 59 win Suns, 62 wins Spurs and 57 win Magic with Shaq and Penny as complete young studs.

And as laughable as the idea was that the Rockets were solid all around Hakeem in his first title is even more
Laughable in the face of the the argument that they were like the Duncan era Spurs. The idea that they were in ANY WAY like the Spurs who had an eventual Hall Of Famer startung next to Duncan with Robinson still producing at an All-Star level in 1999 or the one with Robinson, prime Manu and a rookie Parker is laughable.

 

[Cheesebeef]

They all won Coach of the Year before winning a title??? I think the Beefmeister may be on to something here. And I bet they didn't even have a top 5 player (of all time) added to the roster in between the COY awards and their Championships! I'm with you man, Monty Williams FTW!

I’m saying if Monty CAN’T win this year, that it’s time to replace him.

Also, those other coaches consistently got the best out of their teams, never failing to win a series they were favored. The last two years, at the time Monty’s teams lost, they were both the favorites to win the title. But when the rubber met the road in those two years, Monty’s teams not only completely blew a 2-0 Finals lead with an ugly back door sweep (only 2nd time that’s happened in the last 30 years in the Finals), but they followed that up by getting completely humiliated by an underdog Mavs team we had dead to rights who ended up handing us the worst home Game 7 loss in NBA History.

 

[BooksOrangePlanet]

I’m saying if Monty CAN’T win this year, that it’s time to replace him.

Also, those other coaches consistently got the best out of their teams, never failing to win a series they were favored. The last two years, at the time Monty’s teams lost, they were both the favorites to win the title. But when the rubber met the road in those two years, Monty’s teams not only completely blew a 2-0 Finals lead with an ugly back door sweep (only 2nd time that’s happened in the last 30 years in the Finals), but they followed that up by getting completely humiliated by an underdog Mavs team we had dead to rights who ended up handing us the worst home Game 7 loss in NBA History.

This year or bust is kinda steep, squad only has 20 games to get their gel on. It would take quite the trainwreck to warrant any coaching changes imo, I don't see that happening but okay

 

[Cheesebeef]

This year or bust is kinda steep, squad only has 20 games to get their gel on. It would take quite the trainwreck to warrant any coaching changes imo, I don't see that happening but okay

Except it’s not this year or bust. This is the third year we’re going in as favorites. We’ve seen teams like the Pistons, Rockets, Pistons again make big changes on the fly and add HUGE pieces (Mark Aguirre, Drexler, Sheed) and win their titles.

And to be honest, if they don’t win, isn’t this off-season the perfect one for a fresh start? If you’re arguing it’s a new team, why not bring in a new coach that can compliment them instead of Monty, who’s pretty stubborn trying to force his system again?

 

[BooksOrangePlanet]

Except it’s not this year or bust. This is the third year we’re going in as favorites. We’ve seen teams like the Pistons, Rockets, Pistons again make big changes on the fly and add HUGE pieces (Mark Aguirre, Drexler, Sheed) and win their titles.

And to be honest, if they don’t win, isn’t this off-season the perfect one for a fresh start? If you’re arguing it’s a new team, why not bring in a new coach that can compliment them instead of Monty, who’s pretty stubborn trying to force his system again?

Okay I'll play. You love the name game so much, give me your list of coaches that are widely considered to be better than Monty, will win us the title we so clearly deserve, and actually have a realistic chance of coming to Phx. This should be good man looking forward to it

 

[Covert Rain]

I’m saying if Monty CAN’T win this year, that it’s time to replace him.

Also, those other coaches consistently got the best out of their teams, never failing to win a series they were favored. The last two years, at the time Monty’s teams lost, they were both the favorites to win the title. But when the rubber met the road in those two years, Monty’s teams not only completely blew a 2-0 Finals lead with an ugly back door sweep (only 2nd time that’s happened in the last 30 years in the Finals), but they followed that up by getting completely humiliated by an underdog Mavs team we had dead to rights who ended up handing us the worst home Game 7 loss in NBA History.

This. As you stated....you took your team to the finals with two stars (Booker, CP3) then collapsed. Last year you had the best record. Again, collapsed. Now you add one of the best players of all time to Booker, CP3 and Ayton.

If it wasn't for the 2 previous seasons? That might save your job not getting done. Like I said above? Monty's legacy/tenure with the team is on the line. If he can't get it done with Book, Durant, CP3 and Ayton?

See ya! You take your chances with another coach with the limited time you have with these 3.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Okay I'll play. You love the name game so much, give me your list of coaches that are widely considered to be better than Monty, will win us the title we so clearly deserve, and actually have a realistic chance of coming to Phx. This should be good man looking forward to it

Nick Nurse is the guy I’d want to target. He elevated that team for years and they’re at the tune out point and probably going to go separate waves.

Never lost a series he was favored in. Won multiple series as an underdog. Is an NBA Champion.

But also, last time I looked, I’m not an NBA GM. It’s James Jones responsibility to find that guy to take us over the top. The idea that because someone on a message board isn’t keyed in enough to have a lengthy list of candidates should mean we should stay pat, absolving Monty of his ugly playoff collapses is bizarre.

 

[95pro]

Nick Nurse is the guy I’d want to target. He elevated that team for years and they’re at the tune out point and probably going to go separate waves.

Never lost a series he was favored in. Won multiple series as an underdog. Is an NBA Champion.

But also, last time I looked, I’m not an NBA GM. It’s James Jones responsibility to find that guy to take us over the top. The idea that because someone on a message board isn’t keyed in enough to have a lengthy list of candidates should mean we should stay pat, absolving Monty of his ugly playoff collapses is bizarre.

Lots of reading, and after all that you just deflect to say you’re not a GM.

I do like the Nurse idea. He’s probably tops.

I also think Ty Lue and Willie Green would be great replacements.

 

[BooksOrangePlanet]

Nick Nurse is the guy I’d want to target. He elevated that team for years and they’re at the tune out point and probably going to go separate waves.

Never lost a series he was favored in. Won multiple series as an underdog. Is an NBA Champion.

But also, last time I looked, I’m not an NBA GM. It’s James Jones responsibility to find that guy to take us over the top. The idea that someone on a message board isn’t keyed in enough to have a lengthy list of candidates should somehow absolve Monty of his ugly playoff collapses is bizarre.

Isn't Nick Nurse currently a HC of a different team? Not very realistic my man and definitely not list worthy. Sounds kinda like you just want Monty gone but have no idea what to do after that. And I'm not exactly sure how the team would feel about a new owner coming in, trashing the coach that got them here and who essentially kept Booker here, only to bring in someone they have no trust in. Because this team trusts Monty. Truth is there isn't a clear upgrade, there's no other recent coach of the year top caliber coaching talents in need of a job, just ask Atlanta. Hopefully we win the championship, I really like our chances and Monty Williams is a big reason why.

 

[Chaplin]

Isn't Nick Nurse currently a HC of a different team? Not very realistic my man and definitely not list worthy. Sounds kinda like you just want Monty gone but have no idea what to do after that. And I'm not exactly sure how the team would feel about a new owner coming in, trashing the coach that got them here and who essentially kept Booker here, only to bring in someone they have no trust in. Because this team trusts Monty. Truth is there isn't a clear upgrade, there's no other recent coach of the year top caliber coaching talents in need of a job, just ask Atlanta. Hopefully we win the championship, I really like our chances and Monty Williams is a big reason why.

To be fair, cheese did explain why Nick Nurse would be a choice and why there is a good possibility he could be without a team in the summer.

 

[95pro]

Isn't Nick Nurse currently a HC of a different team? Not very realistic my man and definitely not list worthy. Sounds kinda like you just want Monty gone but have no idea what to do after that. And I'm not exactly sure how the team would feel about a new owner coming in, trashing the coach that got them here and who essentially kept Booker here, only to bring in someone they have no trust in. Because this team trusts Monty. Truth is there isn't a clear upgrade, there's no other recent coach of the year top caliber coaching talents in need of a job, just ask Atlanta. Hopefully we win the championship, I really like our chances and Monty Williams is a big reason why.

I thought nurses’ contract was just about up?

Idk if the entire team trusts Monty. Are they all good soldiers and follow order, yes.

Monty lacks adjustments and strategy. This post season, watch and wait for him to stick to his system and probably miss a costly timeout.

 

[JCSunsfan]

We had such bad coaches for so long. Man, I am happy with what we have. He created a defensive culture that the Suns never had before. That would have never happened under someone like Nash. Players want to play for him and they want to play hard.

If it ain't broke

 

[Cheesebeef]

Isn't Nick Nurse currently a HC of a different team? Not very realistic my man and definitely not list worthy. Sounds kinda like you just want Monty gone but have no idea what to do after that. And I'm not exactly sure how the team would feel about a new owner coming in, trashing the coach that got them here and who essentially kept Booker here, only to bring in someone they have no trust in. Because this team trusts Monty. Truth is there isn't a clear upgrade, there's no other recent coach of the year top caliber coaching talents in need of a job, just ask Atlanta. Hopefully we win the championship, I really like our chances and Monty Williams is a big reason why.

agree to disagree.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Lots of reading, and after all that you just deflect to say you’re not a GM.

I do like the Nurse idea. He’s probably tops.

I also think Ty Lue and Willie Green would be great replacements.

Actually, I didn’t deflect. I literally started with who I’d target and why he’d might be available.

Then I said Monty shouldn’t be absolved of repeated playoff failures because a guy on a message board doesn’t know the ins and outs of great basketball minds yet to be tapped.

 

[Cheesebeef]

We had such bad coaches for so long. Man, I am happy with what we have. He created a defensive culture that the Suns never had before. That would have never happened under someone like Nash. Players want to play for him and they want to play hard.

If it ain't broke

If we have another playoff failure, making three straight years of such, that is the definition of being broke if your goal is to win a title.

Settling for good enough isn’t good enough for me. That’s a low bar for any franchise and a mindset that will ensure it never gets the ultimate prize, IMO.

 

[BooksOrangePlanet]

I thought nurses’ contract was just about up?

Idk if the entire team trusts Monty. Are they all good soldiers and follow order, yes.

Monty lacks adjustments and strategy. This post season, watch and wait for him to stick to his system and probably miss a costly timeout.

I believe he's signed thru 2023-24. Are we supposed to ask some rando to hold our beer for a year (while CP3 and Durant continue to age) after canning one of the best coaches in the league on the hopes Nick Nurse will leave his home and the team he built to come to coach for a owner that fired Monty freakin Williams?