Cardinals at Seahawks gameday thread 10-22-23

kerouac9

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An EDGE or pretty much any position outside of QB won't turn a bad team into a good team but they have true game changing ability.
Prime Chandler made our team much better.

Why do you need an elite LT?

My argument here is that an elite EDGE is neither necessary nor sufficient to become a successful contender. It sounds like we agree here.

I don't think you need an elite LT, either.
 

oaken1

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My argument here is that an elite EDGE is neither necessary nor sufficient to become a successful contender. It sounds like we agree here.

I don't think you need an elite LT, either.
Agree. A group of really good guys beats having one elite guy. It also protects your production from injury....not to mention they can be coming from several directions at once.
 

football karma

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My argument here is that an elite EDGE is neither necessary nor sufficient to become a successful contender. It sounds like we agree here.

I don't think you need an elite LT, either.
yesterday was an example of that on defense:

I dont think anyone is calling Boye Mafe or Darrell Taylor elite players. They are competent rushers on a defense with a good secondary
 

Cheesebeef

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Agree. A group of really good guys beats having one elite guy. It also protects your production from injury....not to mention they can be coming from several directions at once.
This assumes we know how to identify a group of really good pass rushers.

This off-season, they decided Myjai Sanders, Cam Thomas, BJ Oujulari Barbarian, and Collins could be that group. Cam Thomas is a ghost, BJ looks like a total stiff so far, Sanders got cut, Collins does a good job of jumping on a sack once it’s already in progress. Barbarian is the only solid rotation piece amongst the 5.

It’s tough enough to get one dynamic pass rusher. That usually comes at the top of the draft. But to find four or five guys who are solid doing so is even tougher, IMO.
 

kerouac9

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yesterday was an example of that on defense:

I dont think anyone is calling Boye Mafe or Darrell Taylor elite players. They are competent rushers on a defense with a good secondary

Yeah but we also suck, so it's really hard to evaluate the quality of the competition. Those near-hits against Washington and New York don't look all that appetizing now.
This assumes we know how to identify a group of really good pass rushers.

This off-season, they decided Myjai Sanders, Cam Thomas, BJ Oujulari Barbarian, and Collins could be that group. Cam Thomas is a ghost, BJ looks like a total stiff so far, Sanders got cut, Collins does a good job of jumping on a sack once it’s already in progress. Barbarian is the only solid rotation piece amongst the 5.

It’s tough enough to get one dynamic pass rusher. That usually comes at the top of the draft. But to find four or five guys who are solid doing so is even tougher, IMO.
Yeah but we suck! We don't have a ton of opportunities to pin our ears back and rush the passer, because we don't force a lot of 3rd and longs and we NEVER have a lead to protect.

All that said, we're still 14th in the NFL in sack percentage (according to Pro Football Reference). Better than the Jets, 49ers, Jags, etc. Gardeck, Collins, and Dimukeje are all on pace for 8.5 sacks or more.

Here are last year's top pass rushers, and when they were selected (and acquired by their current team):

Nick Bosa, 2nd overall
Myles Garrett, 1st overall
Haason Reddick, 13th overall (Free Agent)
Matt Judon, 146th overall (Free Agent)
Chris Jones, 37th overall
Alex Highsmith, 102nd overall
Micah Parsons, 12th overall
Maxx Crosby, 106th overall
Brian Burns, 16th overall
J.J. Watt, 11th overall (Free Agent)

A bunch of those guys' teams missed the playoffs last year! Some of them really sucked balls, too!
 

oaken1

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This assumes we know how to identify a group of really good pass rushers.

This off-season, they decided Myjai Sanders, Cam Thomas, BJ Oujulari Barbarian, and Collins could be that group. Cam Thomas is a ghost, BJ looks like a total stiff so far, Sanders got cut, Collins does a good job of jumping on a sack once it’s already in progress. Barbarian is the only solid rotation piece amongst the 5.

It’s tough enough to get one dynamic pass rusher. That usually comes at the top of the draft. But to find four or five guys who are solid doing so is even tougher, IMO.
Truth. Always hard to find... perhaps the quest to find an 16 sack guy will yield us a few 8 to 10 sack guys.
 

ajcardfan

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At 1-6? With neither having any head coach attributes? Gannon has shown he is solid. But after that...
The joke was that Gannon is making the offense and defense suck in the second half so he doesn't lose them.
 

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This assumes we know how to identify a group of really good pass rushers.

This off-season, they decided Myjai Sanders, Cam Thomas, BJ Oujulari Barbarian, and Collins could be that group. Cam Thomas is a ghost, BJ looks like a total stiff so far, Sanders got cut, Collins does a good job of jumping on a sack once it’s already in progress. Barbarian is the only solid rotation piece amongst the 5.

It’s tough enough to get one dynamic pass rusher. That usually comes at the top of the draft. But to find four or five guys who are solid doing so is even tougher, IMO.
There Is also dimikuje, i think he can be a good rotation rusher
What we really Need imo are a good run stuffer in the middle with One dt with some passrusher skills next tò him, plus a solid back up there
Adding three good defensive linemen and a great cover Cb this defense can have some success
 

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This assumes we know how to identify a group of really good pass rushers.

This off-season, they decided Myjai Sanders, Cam Thomas, BJ Oujulari Barbarian, and Collins could be that group. Cam Thomas is a ghost, BJ looks like a total stiff so far, Sanders got cut, Collins does a good job of jumping on a sack once it’s already in progress. Barbarian is the only solid rotation piece amongst the 5.

It’s tough enough to get one dynamic pass rusher. That usually comes at the top of the draft. But to find four or five guys who are solid doing so is even tougher, IMO.
Yep. If anything yesterday highlighted the need for a top edge. We don't have one.
 
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oaken1

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There Is also dimikuje, i think he can be a good rotation rusher
What we really Need imo are a good run stuffer in the middle with One dt with some passrusher skills next tò him, plus a solid back up there
Adding three good defensive linemen and a great cover Cb this defense can have some success
Agree whole heartedly...a guy in the middle that commands double teams makes life easier for the edge players.
That's why I was so disappointed with Jalen Carter... we desperately need a guy exactly like him in the middle of our dline... sans drunken street racing/vehicular mansla
 
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Cheesebeef

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We don't have one decent, long term, legit NFL starter, or even prospect, on the entire defensive front. IMO.
this is sadly true. But, I think the addition of just two impact guys in the front 7 could make all those guys around them a little better. Where the hell those two guys are going to come from is anyone's guess. I have no idea what we do in FA next year and from what I've read, there's no killer pass rusher burning up the draft charts.
 

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I think you maybe need someone who can get 10+ sacks but not someone who can get 15+? The Chiefs won the Super Bowl with DT Chris Jones getting 15.5 sacks and no one else getting more than six.

The Bengals had the sixth-ranked scoring defense in 2022 and no player on that defense had more than eight sacks.

The 2022 Bills went 13-3 and no edge rusher had more than eight sacks (though Von Miller had eight in 13 games and probably would have gotten there barring injury).

I'd rather have a rotation of five guys who can throw different looks at the QB, play 30% or so of the snaps, make $5 million a year or less, and get eight sacks than one guy who gets 17 but puts you over a barrel at contract time or if he gets nicked up.

I know that San Fran had 18.5 sacks from Bosa last year, and Reddick had 16 with Philly, but I don't feel like there's a ton of correlation between having an elite edge rusher and getting where you want to in the postseason.

As to the second part, I'm getting increasingly itchy when people post "We'll just draft a #1 WR," and assume that's going to happen and it's easy to do.

Jaxon Smith-Ngiba (sp) just scored his first career TD last week.

The best WR in the NFL was selected with the 22nd pick in the first round (Justin Jefferson) -- the fifth player picked at his position.

Arguably the second-best WR in the NFL was selected in the third round (69th overall -- nice) in Cooper Kupp.

I'm pretty conservative about this stuff, and I think that you plan to draft for a guy's 80th percentile outcome -- what is he most likely to become. Keim made a mistake because he always drafted prospects in the first few rounds based on their 95th-percentile outcome -- how good could they be if they maxed out their potential?



I mean, where have those Edge players taken their teams? Doesn't this prove my point?

A lot of good content (from everybody) on the EDGE position. Really interesting discussion.

Also thanks K9 for the thoughts on identifying elite players. I guess if you're drafting top five the most you can expect is like a seven or eight year starter, but not even necessarily a top five guy at his position.
 
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kerouac9

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A lot of good content (from everybody) on the EDGE position. Really interesting discussion.

Also thanks K9 for the thoughts on identifying elite players. I guess if you're drafting top five the most you can expect is like seven or eight year starter, but not even necessarily a top five guy at his position.
It's hard, because sometimes you do get an elite player. Larry Fitzgerald, DaVonta Smith, and Ja'Marr Chase are all elite players who were drafted highly and have paid dividends. Smith and Chase were even fairly warty prospects because Smith was so narrow and Chase took a COVID year off before the draft.

I think where I come down is you have to balance positional value with a moderate projection to land on the right guy in a high-stakes draft position. I think that's why we took PJJ. Good football character, pedigree, and athleticism means it's unlikely the guy just won't be able to play. Add in that he's in a good position, and you're happy taking him at six.

We'll have an interesting discussion in a few years when it's time to pick up his fifth-year option, he's started 48 games, but hasn't been to a Pro Bowl.
 

kerouac9

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Just as an illustration of how capped this offense is, here's the Next Gen Stats chart comparison from Sunday:

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Pew pew pew shots, indeed.
 

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