2020-21 Around the NBA Thread

[Mainstreet]

For me the big problem is that Luka will already be on a super max with maybe no other roster pieces in place. It's a lot more doable if you have some of your key role players already in place before you pay out that huge deal.

They currently owe 2 future first round picks and 3 second round picks and have no real tradable assets of value. I KNOW that Cuban would love to keep him, he's too valuable to want to move but I think they are going to be incredibly lucky if Doncic is willing to play out his next contract with so little help in sight.

The Mavericks may have to add a star or significant addition in free agency.

They may need to clear some more salary but there must be a player out there that wants to play with Doncic.

Can anyone say Dennis Schroder, example only.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I really see Doncic's future as a Larry Bird type versatile PF. That is really who he is most analogous to physically.

The Mavericks are doing him a disservice by making him the primary ball handler. Both he and the team would benefit greatly by bringing in a true PG and letting him play off the ball. It would be a lot less wear on him and he could still facilitate effectively as a secondary option.

Man I couldn’t think you’re more off. I think 90% of basketball people would have you committed for suggesting taking the ball out of luka’s hands.

 

[Hoop Head]

Man I couldn’t think you’re more off. I think 90% of basketball people would have you committed for suggesting taking the ball out of luka’s hands.

I agree with him to a certain extent. Its like Booker with Chris Paul, Booker has been better now that he has the ball in his hands less. The Mavericks need to figure out if Luka will be their primary scorer or playmaker. As long as he's both then they'll continue to be sent home early every postseason.

Currently the Mavs look best when Luka is out there with Jalen Brunson to take some of the play making duties off his shoulders. Brunson isn't the answer but they need to find a better PG to pair with him or someone who he can feed consistently. KP isn't that guy, that's for certain.

 

[itlnsunsfan]

Doncic isn't going to come close to having Lebron's longevity.

That would be a safe bet I imagine. Lebron was built in a lab. But Luka doesn't rely very much on athleticism, so I think he can have a very long career playing at a high level.

 

[Raindog]

The Mavericks need to figure out if Luka will be their primary scorer or playmaker. As long as he's both then they'll continue to be sent home early every postseason.

Yup, this...

Having him run the ball up and down the court from end to end AND then have to create his own shots is a recipe for wearing him down. That should be obvious to anyone who watches games just like the one tonight - he was out of gas by the second half, and it's far from the first time that has happened.

Add to that the fact that he is neither the sleekest nor best conditioned athlete (unlike Lebron in his prime), he has a big frame that will only get heftier as he matures, and it should be plain to anyone that his future would be better served playing off the ball rather than as a primary facilitator.

And frankly, he is much more useful and effective as a shooter and scorer than as the main playmaker. Get a real PG to handle the ball up the floor and let Doncic set up in the halfcourt and take better advantage of his shooting and rebounding. Nothing about that will diminish his playmaking skills. He is going to have to be primarily in that role very soon anyway.

 

[SirStefan32]

I can see your reasoning but Dallas built a contender around Dirk, although it took them long enough. Cuban is willing to spend so I don't think he'll push Luka away because he's not willing to pay for help. He's probably going to need to gamble on expiring deals and disgruntled stars in hopes they can find the right mix to surround Luka.

Cuban better hope that Dirk had a positive effect on Luka during his rookie year and will help try to keep him Dallas. It'll be interesting to see play out but I can't see them being willing to deal Luka at any s point in his next contract.

Cuban is definitely willing to spend, but you can only spend so much. Problem with Dallas is that they have a bunch of good role-players, but they really don't have the second option. They are paying Porzingis a lot of money. but he really doesn't produce much. He is on the books for three more years for $30M+ per year. Luke's gonna get an extension at around $40M per year. Powell and Kleber are on the book for two more year combining for $20M per... so I am not really sure HOW they can improve the team.

 

[LoyaltyisaCurse]

Cuban is definitely willing to spend, but you can only spend so much. Problem with Dallas is that they have a bunch of good role-players, but they really don't have the second option. They are paying Porzingis a lot of money. but he really doesn't produce much. He is on the books for three more years for $30M+ per year. Luke's gonna get an extension at around $40M per year. Powell and Kleber are on the book for two more year combining for $20M per... so I am not really sure HOW they can improve the team.

Dallas needs Kawai Leonard.

 

[Raindog]

Dallas needs Kawai Leonard.

Or maybe LA Clippers need Doncic.

I have the feeling something like that is the more likely long term possibility.

 

[Hoop Head]

Cuban is definitely willing to spend, but you can only spend so much. Problem with Dallas is that they have a bunch of good role-players, but they really don't have the second option. They are paying Porzingis a lot of money. but he really doesn't produce much. He is on the books for three more years for $30M+ per year. Luke's gonna get an extension at around $40M per year. Powell and Kleber are on the book for two more year combining for $20M per... so I am not really sure HOW they can improve the team.

They have some space this summer if they let Hardaway walk but they can free up more. Depending on who ends up in this class they might be best suited to take the same approach Golden State did when Durant left, they had the space so they bought the only max player on the market in D'Lo. He didn't fit or wasn't a real need but everyone knew they'd trade him sooner than later. They had a trade exception almost in the form of a player. They need pieces more than the Warriors did so they don't need to take on a bad deal with picks like GS did with Wiggins and some 1sts.

I think they should move KP now before they need to attach anything with him to get out of his contract. Surely there's a GM who would scoop him up quickly, especially if his price is low.

 

[Bobster]

Man I couldn’t think you’re more off. I think 90% of basketball people would have you committed for suggesting taking the ball out of luka’s hands.

The problem isn't Dončić having the ball, it's him having it so much of the time. They need more variety in their offense.

 

[Bobster]

They have some space this summer if they let Hardaway walk but they can free up more. Depending on who ends up in this class they might be best suited to take the same approach Golden State did when Durant left, they had the space so they bought the only max player on the market in D'Lo. He didn't fit or wasn't a real need but everyone knew they'd trade him sooner than later. They had a trade exception almost in the form of a player. They need pieces more than the Warriors did so they don't need to take on a bad deal with picks like GS did with Wiggins and some 1sts.

I think they should move KP now before they need to attach anything with him to get out of his contract. Surely there's a GM who would scoop him up quickly, especially if his price is low.

The problem is they'll have to take back an equal amount of salary in the trade. So selling low isn't a great option.

 

[JCSunsfan]

The problem is they'll have to take back an equal amount of salary in the trade. So selling low isn't a great option.

Yep. The only way is to trade problem children.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I agree with him to a certain extent. Its like Booker with Chris Paul, Booker has been better now that he has the ball in his hands less. The Mavericks need to figure out if Luka will be their primary scorer or playmaker. As long as he's both then they'll continue to be sent home early every postseason.

Currently the Mavs look best when Luka is out there with Jalen Brunson to take some of the play making duties off his shoulders. Brunson isn't the answer but they need to find a better PG to pair with him or someone who he can feed consistently. KP isn't that guy, that's for certain.

You can’t honestly be comparing luka with book. Book is a scorer who is a capable playmaker. Luka is a special playmaker. Taking the ball outta of his hands is taking away what makes him luka. Luka needs to be surrounded by a capable scorer, shooters and defenders. The one thing he doesn’t need is a playmaker. That would be a luxury.

 

[Chaplin]

That would be a safe bet I imagine. Lebron was built in a lab. But Luka doesn't rely very much on athleticism, so I think he can have a very long career playing at a high level.

If Luka doesn’t do something about his body, he’s going to be in trouble in 10 years. He’ll be retired well before 35.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

The problem isn't Dončić having the ball, it's him having it so much of the time. They need more variety in their offense.

They need players that can finish what he sets up for them. They just don’t have much talent.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Lillard is better than Iverson, for starters

Full stop

 

[Chris_Sanders]

AI's finals teammates were Eric Snow, Aaron McKie, Jumaine Jones, Matt Geiger, Tyrone Hill, Speedy Clayton, George Hill, Todd McCollough, and the corpse of Dikembe Mutombo.

AI got those guys to the finals solo. Lillard isn't in AI's orbit

 

[Hoop Head]

You can’t honestly be comparing luka with book. Book is a scorer who is a capable playmaker. Luka is a special playmaker. Taking the ball outta of his hands is taking away what makes him luka. Luka needs to be surrounded by a capable scorer, shooters and defenders. The one thing he doesn’t need is a playmaker. That would be a luxury.

I was more trying to compare their situations. I know Luka is the superior playmaker. The Mavs can go one of two ways to build a contender, IMO, and that's either to bring in a playmaker for Luka to play off of or bring in a scorer to lighten his load in that regard and let him focus on play making more.

 

[JCSunsfan]

AI's finals teammates were Eric Snow, Aaron McKie, Jumaine Jones, Matt Geiger, Tyrone Hill, Speedy Clayton, George Hill, Todd McCollough, and the corpse of Dikembe Mutombo.

AI got those guys to the finals solo. Lillard isn't in AI's orbit

I agree.

 

[AzStevenCal]

AI's finals teammates were Eric Snow, Aaron McKie, Jumaine Jones, Matt Geiger, Tyrone Hill, Speedy Clayton, George Hill, Todd McCollough, and the corpse of Dikembe Mutombo.

AI got those guys to the finals solo. Lillard isn't in AI's orbit

Dikembe was starting to decline but he was still a very effective center during his 2 years in Philadelphia, especially his first year there when they went to the finals. He still played decent defense and averaged a very respectable 13.9 points, 13.7 rebounds and 3.1 blocks that postseason. He played another year in Philly and then 7 more seasons after that, where he probably did come close to playing like a corpse.

And while that wasn't a great roster, the East was weak and Philadelphia was led by one of the greatest coaches in the history of the game. They also had several role player/defenders that postseason including a young Raja Bell and George Lynch.

All told, I'd say that Lillard has clearly played with better teammates and has failed to match AI's personal accolades but Dame is a slightly better defender, a better playmaker, a more efficient shooter/scorer and did it in a much tougher conference.

Right now, Lillard looks to have had the better statistical career (by quite a bit) although much of his advantage when comparing stats is due to Iverson playing several years at a diminished level whereas all of Damian's stats are from his prime.

 

[Drop_D]

AI's finals teammates were Eric Snow, Aaron McKie, Jumaine Jones, Matt Geiger, Tyrone Hill, Speedy Clayton, George Hill, Todd McCollough, and the corpse of Dikembe Mutombo.

AI got those guys to the finals solo. Lillard isn't in AI's orbit

Speedy Claxton? Though, autocorrect prefers Clayton. [emoji6]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Bobster]

AI's finals teammates were Eric Snow, Aaron McKie, Jumaine Jones, Matt Geiger, Tyrone Hill, Speedy Clayton, George Hill, Todd McCollough, and the corpse of Dikembe Mutombo.

AI got those guys to the finals solo. Lillard isn't in AI's orbit

Dikembe in 2000-01 with Philadelphia - 12.5 pts, 13.2 rebounds, 2.7 blocks. He played in the All-Star Game that year and was NBA Defensive Player of the Year, so I guess he was a lively corpse.

 

[elindholm]

so I guess he was a lively corpse.

I think the technical term is "reanimated."

 

[WhyAlwaysMe]

AI's finals teammates were Eric Snow, Aaron McKie, Jumaine Jones, Matt Geiger, Tyrone Hill, Speedy Clayton, George Hill, Todd McCollough, and the corpse of Dikembe Mutombo.

AI got those guys to the finals solo. Lillard isn't in AI's orbit

Philadelphia had the 5th best defense that year. Iverson was never known as even an average defensive player.

The Sixers’ path to the Finals was incredibly easy:

Pacers in 5 (SRS 18th)
Toronto in 7 (SRS 14th)
Bucks in 7 (SRS 8th)

In his career, Lillard has had the following playoff opponents:

2014: Houston (won in 6) 5th in SRS
Spurs (lost in 5) 1st in SRS

2015: Memphis (lost in 5) 8th in SRS

2016: Clippers (won in 6) 5th in SRS
Warriors (lost in 5) 1st in SRS

2017: Warriors (lost in 4) 1st in SRS

2018: Pelicans (lost in 4) 12th in SRS
(2nd round would have been against KD/Steph/Klay/Dray Warriors)

2019: Thunder (won in 5) 9th in SRS
Denver (won in 7) 7th in SRS
Warriors (lost in 4) 2nd in SRS

2020: Lakers (lost in 5) 3rd in SRS

2021: Denver (lost in 7) 6th in SRS

Iverson benefited greatly in 2001 from playing two gas cans and one decent team, in order to make the Finals. Lillard has played in the far more competitive West his all career and has multiple playoff series wins over better opponents than anyone Iverson faced in his Finals run.

Lillard crushes Iverson in shooting and impact metrics. It is laughable to cite his 2001 Playoff run as a significant when weighing their legacies given the disparity in opponent strength.

 

[SirStefan32]

I really see Doncic's future as a Larry Bird type versatile PF. That is really who he is most analogous to physically.

The Mavericks are doing him a disservice by making him the primary ball handler. Both he and the team would benefit greatly by bringing in a true PG and letting him play off the ball. It would be a lot less wear on him and he could still facilitate effectively as a secondary option.

The problem isn't Dončić having the ball, it's him having it so much of the time. They need more variety in their offense.

You can’t honestly be comparing luka with book. Book is a scorer who is a capable playmaker. Luka is a special playmaker. Taking the ball outta of his hands is taking away what makes him luka. Luka needs to be surrounded by a capable scorer, shooters and defenders. The one thing he doesn’t need is a playmaker. That would be a luxury.

They need players that can finish what he sets up for them. They just don’t have much talent.

I think you are all mostly correct.

Doncic is an outstanding play maker/ ball handler, but he would benefit from having another ball handler next to him.
As someone who's watched just about all Dallas games since Luka came to the NBA, here is my take on the issues Dallas has:

• Luka has to do everything for them. He has to handle the ball, create for himself and create for everyone else.
  • This makes him expand a lot of energy. It is painfully obvious that he is tired by the fourth quarter.
    
  • This also means that a good team can keep doubling him, running him through screens, draining him of energy, which makes Dallas pretty beatable by the end of the game.
    
  • While he can create his shots, I think he would be more efficient if he had someone making plays for him once in a while. Take three-point shooting as an example- Luka is actually a good shooter, but almost every three-pointer he takes is a stepback that he has to create. Imagine how good he would be if someone created a few open jumpers for him.
• They do not have a true second option/ star.
  
  • Porzingis is at best the third option on a great team, even when healthy. He has a decent jumper, but he has no inside game. he reminds me of Channing Frye, albeit a bit more athletic. He can take the ball to the hoop a little bit, but 75% of him game is taking long jumpers.
    
  • Rest of the team is streaky. Hardaway, Finney-Smith, Burke, Richardson, Kleber are all questions marks when it comes to shooting. They might be on, or they might be off. For Mavs to win, at least two of those guys have to be on.
• Nobody else can consistently create for themselves, let alone others.
  
  • Hardaway can create for himself to some degree, Brunson can create a little bit of offense for himself and others, and Richardson can do it once in a while, but none of those guys are reliable at either task.
    
  • None of their bigs can create for themselves. Powell, Kleber, Cauley-Stein all have to be spoon-fed, and even Porzingis doesn't create much for himself.

Bottom line is that Dallas is Phoenix of three or four years ago, but with a top-three player on their roster. I think Doncic needs to be the primary ball handler/ play maker, but he needs someone else who can do those things. He also needs one big and one guard who can at least create for themselves. Doncic just cannot do it all by himself, and that's not a knock on Luka- again, I think he is somewhere in top-three to top-five player in the entire NBA, but he doesn't have enough supporting cast to get through the West.

I would see if Dragic would agree to finish his career in Dallas, playing with his young protege. Hate to say this, but Cam Payne would also be a top target for me if I were running the Mavs. Then I would probably try to get Jarrett Allen if I can get rid of one of their current bigs to clear some salary. Ellington, Galloway, or someone similar would be a good addition to give them some consistent three-point shooting.
Not sure what Denny Green's contract situation is right now, but he could be an interesting option as well- would give them some defense and some three-point shooting. None of this solved the main problem- no second star, but it does address other issues.