Roster ideas and rumors for Suns

[AzStevenCal]

I don’t mean a star. I just mean I don’t see many valuable buyout guys being swayed by 3.5 million bucks difference if it comes down to trying to win a title with us or the big boys if they are rolling.

Okay. There's no denying that certain clubs have a huge advantage but there's only so many spots available. Maybe the best we can do is grab a castoff from the Lakers when the next big name inevitably chooses to go there.

Our options for real improvement, now and come midseason, are not great. I just think we have a better chance to slightly improve the roster during the season than now. But barring a trade, it's highly like that the roster we currently have will determine our season.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I'd rather have both, with Cameron at the 2/3 where he belongs. Forcing Cameron in his current physical state to play the 4 is like having neither, at least against teams with actual 4s.

He can't play the 2, that would be a killer for us. And his value as a 3 is quite limited. He gives up something at the 4 but he's also a mismatch for the other teams and he's critical for us in spacing the court.

 

[1Sun]

He can't play the 2, that would be a killer for us. And his value as a 3 is quite limited. He gives up something at the 4 but he's also a mismatch for the other teams and he's critical for us in spacing the court.

How is he a mismatch in our favor at the 4? He doesn't have a quickness or athleticism advantage, he has a huge strength disadvantage and a small verticality disadvantage, and he is largely a spot-up shooter.

And the emphasis in spacing is a recipe for limitation of success, in my opinion. In the last decade, the only NBA champion that played 1 inside, 4 outside was the Warriors, and they had the best shooting backcourt in NBA history.

 

[AzStevenCal]

How is he a mismatch in our favor at the 4? He doesn't have a quickness or athleticism advantage, he has a huge strength disadvantage and a small verticality disadvantage, and he is largely a spot-up shooter.

And the emphasis in spacing is a recipe for limitation of success, in my opinion. In the last decade, the only NBA champion that played 1 inside, 4 outside was the Warriors, and they had the best shooting backcourt in NBA history.

If he doesn't have a quickness advantage at the 4 how in the world can you justify saying he should play the 2? It makes no sense.

And spacing is everything in the NBA. I'm not saying every team has to live and die by the 3 but you have to space the court - if you don't it's too easy to defend the key and to shut down penetration. If they can easily double your big man, and you can't penetrate and you aren't a 3 point shooting team, what are you? Defense is nice but no one wins the games 2-0.

 

[1Sun]

If he doesn't have a quickness advantage at the 4 how in the world can you justify saying he should play the 2? It makes no sense.

And spacing is everything in the NBA. I'm not saying every team has to live and die by the 3 but you have to space the court - if you don't it's too easy to defend the key and to shut down penetration. If they can easily double your big man, and you can't penetrate and you aren't a 3 point shooting team, what are you? Defense is nice but no one wins the games 2-0.

He at least would have a size advantage at the 2. He has no advantage at all at the 4 and a severe disadvantage where we need the most help - interior defense, interior scoring and rebounding. At his current build, he is by far best suited to play the 3.

And it's just as easy to defend a line-up with only one legitimate inside scorer. When Booker or Paul drives, it's that much easier just to collapse on them, focus on the passing lane to the one interior Suns player and dare the Suns to beat you from 3, especially when the Suns are at a significant disadvantage in terms of rebounding, interior defense and rim protection on the other end.

The Warriors had the kind of three point shooting (historically good) to make opponents pay playing a line-up like you are proposing. Even with Cam on the court, the Suns do not come close to that. We do not have a Steph Curry or Klay Thompson, let alone both.

 

[Phrazbit]

Meanwhile, in the reality of the modern NBA, the Suns posted a wildly successful +185 when Cam was on the court at the 4.

 

[Covert Rain]

Meanwhile, in the reality of the modern NBA, the Suns posted a wildly successful +185 when Cam was on the court at the 4.

That didn't help us win a title. I love CAM. I really do. However, he and a couple other guys were exposed when the game slowed down in the finals.

 

[Phrazbit]

That didn't help us win a title.

It certainly didn't hurt the effort.

 

[Chaplin]

That didn't help us win a title. I love CAM. I really do. However, he and a couple other guys were exposed when the game slowed down in the finals.

Um, really? We got to the finals. Your statement implies we didn't actually win the title because we were "only" a +185 when Cam was at the 4. That's a pretty big reach.

Cam was arguably the most consistent player for us in the entire playoffs.

 

[Covert Rain]

It certainly didn't hurt the effort.

He didn't? He hurt us in 4 of 7 games in the Buck series. Two of them were atrocious. His overall net? -56

Bucks Series:
Game 1:
On: -1 · Off: +14 · Net: -15

Game 2:
On: +2 · Off: +8 · Net: -6

Game 3
On: -8 · Off: -12 · Net: +4

Game 4
On: -9 · Off: +3 · Net: -12

Game 5
On: -19 · Off: +15 · Net: -34

Game 6
On: 0 · Off: -7 · Net: +7

 

[Covert Rain]

Um, really? We got to the finals. Your statement implies we didn't actually win the title because we were "only" a +185 when Cam was at the 4. That's a pretty big reach.

Cam was arguably the most consistent player for us in the entire playoffs.

No my statement doesn't imply any such thing. I commented earlier. Many teams have players with plus/minus's that look good during the regular season (i.e. small ball). I am saying that gets exposed the closer you get to the finals. I have a decade worth of stats to prove to you with the exception of maybe the Warriors the game completely changes for most teams come playoffs. Case and point, we were all shouting during the playoffs how the team had no movement with the ball at times. That's when Cam is most effective. Moving without the ball. Not just his spot up shooting.

So, no I am not saying IT'S the ONLY reason. If you think we can win the title with Cam playing the four I don't know what to tell you.

 

[Finito]

It certainly didn't hurt the effort.

it did hurt especially down low and a lack of size killed us.

 

[Proximo]

That didn't help us win a title. I love CAM. I really do. However, he and a couple other guys were exposed when the game slowed down in the finals.

It's all about the matchup. Against some 4's he is very effective, against others like an AD or Giannis he is useless.

 

[Mainstreet]

Sometimes I think we get into a debate about where players should play upfront in optimal situations. That's fine if everything goes right but I think it's important to remember the importance of depth.

When a player gets injured or comes down with COVID it's important to have replacement role players. The Suns have solid depth but they could use more size.

The only real size behind McGee is Kaminsky. Last season the Suns had no replacement for Saric when he went down in the Finals. It's not hard to see the Suns lack size outside of Ayton And McGee.

Sometimes you can slide a power forward into the center spot and make it work. It's not that the role player has to be better than the rotation player. It just has to work and it almost worked with Craig who turned into a solid contributor.

It's kind of like having a flat tire in the middle of nowhere and limping home on a temporary spare tire. It may not be pretty but it works.

Sometime before the playoffs the Suns need to add that spare tire. A player that can hopefully play the 4/5 if necessary. Consider it as insurance if nothing else.

 

[1Sun]

It's all about the matchup. Against some 4's he is very effective, against others like an AD or Giannis he is useless.

And if the Suns stick with Jae/Cam as their power forward rotation, the following power forwards will give them absolute fits, in addition to AD and Giannis:

Zion
Porzingis
JJJ/Clarke
Ibaka
Covington/Nance Jr.
Bagley
Durant
John Collins
Sabonis
Randle
Siakam

Heck, even Chuma Okeke dominated the Suns at the 4, as did Bobby Portis.

 

[AzStevenCal]

And if the Suns stick with Jae/Cam as their power forward rotation, the following power forwards will give them absolute fits, in addition to AD and Giannis:

Zion
Porzingis
JJJ/Clarke
Ibaka
Covington/Nance Jr.
Bagley
Durant
John Collins
Sabonis
Randle
Siakam

Heck, even Chuma Okeke dominated the Suns at the 4, as did Bobby Portis.

That's just laughable. Surely you can do better. Porzingis? Bagley?

 

[1Sun]

That's just laughable. Surely you can do better. Porzingis? Bagley?

When they were healthy last year, both dominated the Suns at the power forward spot. In fact, the Kings took a game from the Suns courtesy of a 56 to 40 rebounding advantage...

 

[JerkFace]

And if the Suns stick with Jae/Cam as their power forward rotation, the following power forwards will give them absolute fits, in addition to AD and Giannis:

Zion
Porzingis
JJJ/Clarke
Ibaka
Covington/Nance Jr.
Bagley
Durant
John Collins
Sabonis
Randle
Siakam

Heck, even Chuma Okeke dominated the Suns at the 4, as did Bobby Portis.

And apparently Trey freakin’ Lyles could of been the difference…

 

[Phrazbit]

Who knew... it turns out we should have gone undefeated last season. Every single defeat can be traced back to Cam Johnson playing power forward, despite a +185 last year playing as power forward.

Wild stuff.

 

[AzStevenCal]

When they were healthy last year, both dominated the Suns at the power forward spot. In fact, the Kings took a game from the Suns courtesy of a 56 to 40 rebounding advantage...

No they didn't. They out-rebounded us but Bagley was -3 for the game they won against us. And if you recall, it was at the start of the season when you were trying to order a coffin for the corpse of Chris Paul. Booker had one of his worst performances with 7 turnovers and still we only lost by 3. And we kept on losing to bad teams for the next few weeks until Paul and Devin figured out how to play together.

And isn't Porzingis something like 0 for 6 billion in his match-ups with the Suns since Phil exited?

 

[1Sun]

No they didn't. They out-rebounded us but Bagley was -3 for the game they won against us. And if you recall, it was at the start of the season when you were trying to order a coffin for the corpse of Chris Paul. Booker had one of his worst performances with 7 turnovers and still we only lost by 3. And we kept on losing to bad teams for the next few weeks until Paul and Devin figured out how to play together.

And isn't Porzingis something like 0 for 6 billion in his match-ups with the Suns since Phil exited?

A 56 to 40 rebounding difference can't be ignored. And many of those Mavericks games have been nail biters because of the Mavericks' advantage at the 4.

 

[1Sun]

Who knew... it turns out we should have gone undefeated last season. Every single defeat can be traced back to Cam Johnson playing power forward, despite a +185 last year playing as power forward.

Wild stuff.

That's not what I'm saying, and you know it.

That being said, our weakness at the 4 IS what cost us a championship. It left zero margin for error among the guards, so the results when CP3 and Booker were less than 100% in the Finals were predictable, as was Ayton ultimately wearing down due to having to carry 100% of the load inside by himself.

Anyone who claims the Suns don't have a gaping hole at the 4 either isn't paying attention or is deliberately ignoring the obvious.

 

[Phrazbit]

That's not what I'm saying, and you know it.

That being said, our weakness at the 4 IS what cost us a championship. It left zero margin for error among the guards, so the results when CP3 and Booker were less than 100% in the Finals were predictable, as was Ayton ultimately wearing down due to having to carry 100% of the load inside by himself.

Anyone who claims the Suns don't have a gaping hole at the 4 either isn't paying attention or is deliberately ignoring the obvious.

lol, it seems like it is what you're saying. You act as though Cam was a disaster at the 4 when the results were anything but. You've proven, repeatedly, that you live in an alternate reality when it comes to Cam Johnson.

I'd like us to get another big, preferably one who can spread the court and rebound, depth at the 4 is a weakness but it's not a disaster and it won't be the unraveling of the team if we don't get one.

 

[AzStevenCal]

A 56 to 40 rebounding difference can't be ignored. And many of those Mavericks games have been nail biters because of the Mavericks' advantage at the 4.

Well, sure it can. The Kings shot 21% from 3, I guess we could have traded tight 3 point defense for extra attention on rebounding but I thought the idea was to actually win the game. Do we get bonus points for the games we lost but out-rebounded our opponents?

Like I said, we were playing poorly at that early stage of the season but beyond Devin's turnovers, we were playing without Saric. Frank had just joined us and wasn't ready to help yet and Ayton was in foul trouble.

 

[1Sun]

Well, sure it can. The Kings shot 21% from 3, I guess we could have traded tight 3 point defense for extra attention on rebounding but I thought the idea was to actually win the game. Do we get bonus points for the games we lost but out-rebounded our opponents?

Like I said, we were playing poorly at that early stage of the season but beyond Devin's turnovers, we were playing without Saric. Frank had just joined us and wasn't ready to help yet and Ayton was in foul trouble.

We lost that game. Meanwhile, we are without Saric now. And Frank is no longer ever ready to help.