I am not saying Colt is great (he is not) but..

[Covert Rain]

The Rams D is not good enough? Hmm I’m sure most would say their D is the strength of that team but whatever…

Every team on both sides of the ball has bad matchups or bad games. You saying they quit is......forget it.

 

[Russ Smith]

Agreed with the bolded here. Nobody is saying Colt is the better QB. The sensible takes are that it's really troubling that KM can't get this offense going while CM could. Which is indeed troubling.

That's where I am. If Kyler could look 70% of that comfortable in the offense we'd be a playoff team this year. And we would have walked away from the rams yesterday. Colt did quite well but if he had Kyler's arm and legs that would have been a blowout. But Kyler has to understand what's happening the way Colt does and clearly now he doesn't.

 

[Covert Rain]

That's where I am. If Kyler could look 70% of that comfortable in the offense we'd be a playoff team this year. And we would have walked away from the rams yesterday. Colt did quite well but if he had Kyler's arm and legs that would have been a blowout. But Kyler has to understand what's happening the way Colt does and clearly now he doesn't.

So, this. I have not seen him look like this since his rookie season. It's not a talent issue with Kyler IMO. It's a "head" issue.

 

[BritCard]

This is what we all want

For the coaching and KM to be better and do whatever it takes to get there

We all want Kyler to be better but that's 100% in his own control. Which is the problem.

 

[Russ Smith]

We all want Kyler to be better but that's 100% in his own control. Which is the problem.

I quibble a bit with that because kyler has gotten worse not better. he has a hamstring issue but that hasn't been the case all year. he had Covid so maybe early in the year he was rusty. But I don't think the issue is physical I think it's in his head and I think it's a level of comfort in what he's doing.

I don't think that regresses because he's playing video games. So i think it's something else where he's not comfortable with what Kliff is doing whereas clearly Colt is. They have to find a way to get Kyler to be more comfortable in the system going forward. Hopefully for the 2nd year in a row getting to see Colt run it effectively will help

 

[BritCard]

I quibble a bit with that because kyler has gotten worse not better. he has a hamstring issue but that hasn't been the case all year. he had Covid so maybe early in the year he was rusty. But I don't think the issue is physical I think it's in his head and I think it's a level of comfort in what he's doing.

I don't think that regresses because he's playing video games. So i think it's something else where he's not comfortable with what Kliff is doing whereas clearly Colt is. They have to find a way to get Kyler to be more comfortable in the system going forward. Hopefully for the 2nd year in a row getting to see Colt run it effectively will help

That's because it seems he isn't putting the work in to get better.

I think with hindsight those 7 games where he was very good last year was a hot streak. He hit a patch where even though he still wasn't putting in the required non physical work he just hit a patch where everything felt good for him. His confidence level increased, Conner was playing well in the run game, Nuk was playing well and he rode that wave to 7 wins on the bounce without all the study and prep normally required to be great.

What we saw after that and since then was what happens when you don't put the prep work in.

There was a reason Kyler had the first contract ever to stipulate a minimum amount of study. We shouldn't ignore that. It was there for a reason.

He's never going to be good until he fixes that. Playing QB in the NFL is a 14 hour a day job during the season. There is no down time. There's no COD time. Maybe you get to catch a Suns game if you are lucky but the expectation of any QB during a game week is when you are not at the facility you are working on film, progressions, defensive alignments, defensive tendencies, defensive personnel groupings etc for the upcoming game.

 

[Adrian]

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

 

[Crimson Warrior]

I quibble a bit with that because kyler has gotten worse not better. he has a hamstring issue but that hasn't been the case all year. he had Covid so maybe early in the year he was rusty. But I don't think the issue is physical I think it's in his head and I think it's a level of comfort in what he's doing.

I don't think that regresses because he's playing video games. So i think it's something else where he's not comfortable with what Kliff is doing whereas clearly Colt is. They have to find a way to get Kyler to be more comfortable in the system going forward. Hopefully for the 2nd year in a row getting to see Colt run it effectively will help

I agree with you generally Russ, but I think it's a two way street. I think Kliff and Keim need to be better, but I think K1 needs to get his head right and find a way to make the guys around him better. I'm tried of all the pouty negative frustrated behavior. He's the most talented player on the field every time he steps between the lines, and so he can't expect everyone else to preform at the same level he does. But he can inspire his teammates to be the best versions of themselves that they can be, and I'm not sure that's happening at the moment.

I know when you're an introvert and a leader it sucks to put yourself out there because there's always going to be someone who ****s on you even when you're trying to help them, and it's especially hurtful. But if he ever wants to be a champion, making himself vulnerable to his teammates so that he can inspire them is part of what it's going to take.

 

[Russ Smith]

That's because it seems he isn't putting the work in to get better.

I think with hindsight those 7 games where he was very good last year was a hot streak. He hit a patch where even though he still wasn't putting in the required non physical work he just hit a patch where everything felt good for him. His confidence level increased, Conner was playing well in the run game, Nuk was playing well and he rode that wave to 7 wins on the bounce without all the study and prep normally required to be great.

What we saw after that and since then was what happens when you don't put the prep work in.

There was a reason Kyler had the first contract ever to stipulate a minimum amount of study. We shouldn't ignore that. It was there for a reason.

He's never going to be good until he fixes that. Playing QB in the NFL is a 14 hour a day job during the season. There is no down time. There's no COD time. Maybe you get to catch a Suns game if you are lucky but the expectation of any QB during a game week is when you are not at the facility you are working on film, progressions, defensive alignments, defensive tendencies, defensive personnel groupings etc for the upcoming game.

I agree the study clause was a real thing what I mean is I don't see why he's regressing. He was one of the best deep ball throwers in the NFL, now he can't complete a deep ball and seems to be short on them. I think it's a confidence thing but I don't know if that's lack of prep or he just doesn't trust the system now for some reason.

He HAS to play better he's a huge part of the problem my concern as always is can Kliff get him to play better

 

[Cheesebeef]

I agree with you generally Russ, but I think it's a two way street. I think Kliff and Keim need to be better, but I think K1 needs to get his head right and find a way to make the guys around him better. I'm tried of all the pouty negative frustrated behavior. He's the most talented player on the field every time he steps between the lines, and so he can't expect everyone else to preform at the same level he does. But he can inspire his teammates to be the best versions of themselves that they can be, and I'm not sure that's happening at the moment.

I know when you're an introvert and a leader it sucks to put yourself out there because there's always going to be someone who ****s on you even when you're trying to help them, and it's especially hurtful. But if he ever wants to be a champion, making himself vulnerable to his teammates so that he can inspire them is part of what it's going to take.

You gotta stop saying this. It’s just not even close to being true.

 

[football karma]

i have many theories on why Kyler has regressed. Lets add another:

Kyler's strength is throwing the ball downfield to guys who are one on one, or, who he sees are open. At OU, he had OL and WR talent vs the opposition where standing behind the line and letting plays develop wasnt an issue.

His first three years in the NFL: he had enough man coverage or one on one matchups where he could wait for guys to uncover and then deliver, or escape pressure and then deliver.

The NFL has now figured out what Kyler wants to do and is forcing him to do something he isnt comfortable doing-- throwing with anticipation into gaps in (mostly) zone coverage. He can do it -- but its not natural to him.

I will add this: I think Kliff has so drilled into his head to "stay on schedule" and "no interceptions" that its making him hesitant and makes him favor short stuff. We see this on Britt's threads: he generally chooses the sure thing 4 yarder over a riskier but open 15-yard throw nearly every time.

 

[BritCard]

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

This is a little misleading because TT includes all those times QB's scramble around looking for an option.

The highest averate TT's in the league are all mobile QB's. Zach Wilson, Russ Wilson, Fields, Lamar, Mariota, Danny Dimes, Mahomes.

If you are throwing with timing and rhythm you don't need much time. A WR can be over 15 yards down field in 2.12 seconds.

 

[Chopper0080]

i have many theories on why Kyler has regressed. Lets add another:

Kyler's strength is throwing the ball downfield to guys who are one on one, or, who he sees are open. At OU, he had OL and WR talent vs the opposition where standing behind the line and letting plays develop wasnt an issue.

His first three years in the NFL: he had enough man coverage or one on one matchups where he could wait for guys to uncover and then deliver, or escape pressure and then deliver.

The NFL has now figured out what Kyler wants to do and is forcing him to do something he isnt comfortable doing-- throwing with anticipation into gaps in (mostly) zone coverage. He can do it -- but its not natural to him.

I will add this: I think Kliff has so drilled into his head to "stay on schedule" and "no interceptions" that its making him hesitant and makes him favor short stuff. We see this on Britt's threads: he generally chooses the sure thing 4 yarder over a riskier but open 15-yard throw nearly every time.

It is easy to see that Kyler is not comfortable throwing to a spot and wants to see a player open before releasing the ball. I think this is why you here conversation about Kyler "trusting" his wide receivers. I don't know if this is because Kyler doesn't want to look bad or have the blame on him. Who knows. What I do know is that this is why being an active communicator in practice matters for QBs and Wide Receivers. It is about getting to certain landmarks and repeating that timing and rhythm to death.

Colt understands enough that he has to trust his guys to be where they are supposed to be and can't afford to wait to verify it.

Also, players understand Colt will work through his progressions so they need to go hard on every route while it seems with Kyler, they don't feel he will.

 

[Russ Smith]

i have many theories on why Kyler has regressed. Lets add another:

Kyler's strength is throwing the ball downfield to guys who are one on one, or, who he sees are open. At OU, he had OL and WR talent vs the opposition where standing behind the line and letting plays develop wasnt an issue.

His first three years in the NFL: he had enough man coverage or one on one matchups where he could wait for guys to uncover and then deliver, or escape pressure and then deliver.

The NFL has now figured out what Kyler wants to do and is forcing him to do something he isnt comfortable doing-- throwing with anticipation into gaps in (mostly) zone coverage. He can do it -- but its not natural to him.

I will add this: I think Kliff has so drilled into his head to "stay on schedule" and "no interceptions" that its making him hesitant and makes him favor short stuff. We see this on Britt's threads: he generally chooses the sure thing 4 yarder over a riskier but open 15-yard throw nearly every time.

I don't think we actually ever saw a ton of man to man with Kyler. I think the book has always been you can't play man against us because of the threat of Kyler to run so teams play zone. i think we are seeing different zones, and I think he's struggling to read them, but I don't think it took the NFL 4 years to figure out you should zone us I think they did that, largely all along. Kyler just looks much worse.

I noticed something the other day that I can't honestly answer, in a number of still shots of Kyler throwing the ball, especially screens, I notice he's almost never holding the laces when he throws it. Is that new or has he always done that?

 

[Stout]

I agree with you generally Russ, but I think it's a two way street. I think Kliff and Keim need to be better, but I think K1 needs to get his head right and find a way to make the guys around him better. I'm tried of all the pouty negative frustrated behavior. He's the most talented player on the field every time he steps between the lines, and so he can't expect everyone else to preform at the same level he does. But he can inspire his teammates to be the best versions of themselves that they can be, and I'm not sure that's happening at the moment.

I know when you're an introvert and a leader it sucks to put yourself out there because there's always going to be someone who ****s on you even when you're trying to help them, and it's especially hurtful. But if he ever wants to be a champion, making himself vulnerable to his teammates so that he can inspire them is part of what it's going to take.

Um, yeah, no. We have a more talented player on this offense, perhaps more than one, let alone the team, let alone other teams. Maybe he can become that "talented," but some folks toss around superlatives with this kid that he hasn't earned, often. He's not "the most talented player on the field" or a "generational talent" or "transformative" and probably never will be. We need to hope he can tap into his excellent physical talent a lot more by getting his head right, but I doubt he ever realizes his full potential.

 

[Chopper0080]

I don't think we actually ever saw a ton of man to man with Kyler. I think the book has always been you can't play man against us because of the threat of Kyler to run so teams play zone. i think we are seeing different zones, and I think he's struggling to read them, but I don't think it took the NFL 4 years to figure out you should zone us I think they did that, largely all along. Kyler just looks much worse.

I noticed something the other day that I can't honestly answer, in a number of still shots of Kyler throwing the ball, especially screens, I notice he's almost never holding the laces when he throws it. Is that new or has he always done that?

You are correct that Kyler has seen mostly zone in the NFL due to his rushing ability.

Personally, I think Colt just understands the need to move through his progressions very quickly and Kyler wants to stick with his primary too long and this is why colt is smooth and Kyler is clunky.

 

[BullheadCardFan]

Personally, I think Colt just understands the need to move through his progressions very quickly and Kyler wants to stick with his primary too long and this is why colt is smooth and Kyler is clunky.

^ Good point

 

[BritCard]

Just watched PFT. They mentioned a local NBC affiliate (NBC12?) did a poll on who locals wanted to start going forward and 82% chose Colt McCoy.

84% is pretty definitive.

 

[kerouac9]

Just watched PFT. They mentioned a local NBC affiliate (NBC12?) did a poll on who locals wanted to start going forward and 82% chose Colt McCoy.

84% is pretty definitive.

Fans are dumb.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Fans are dumb.

And complete prisoners of the moment.

 

[football karma]

Just watched PFT. They mentioned a local NBC affiliate (NBC12?) did a poll on who locals wanted to start going forward and 82% chose Colt McCoy.

84% is pretty definitive.

i remember them getting excited for Max Hall

 

[Brian in Mesa]

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

 

[Crimson Warrior]

Um, yeah, no. We have a more talented player on this offense, perhaps more than one, let alone the team, let alone other teams. Maybe he can become that "talented," but some folks toss around superlatives with this kid that he hasn't earned, often. He's not "the most talented player on the field" or a "generational talent" or "transformative" and probably never will be. We need to hope he can tap into his excellent physical talent a lot more by getting his head right, but I doubt he ever realizes his full potential.

No Stout, I'm talking about like, innate physical/QB talent. Accuracy, arm strength, mobility, etc.

Kyler has that in spades; and is the most physically gifted player every time he steps between the lines. You can type until you're blue in the face, but you'll never convince me that guys like L. Jackson or Burrow have more innate physical talent than K-1. Mahomes? I guess maybe... he's less mobile but probably has a better arm. Might be a push.

And I wouldn't take Allen over him because Allen takes too much punishment when he runs. It's awesome to see Josh bulldozing down the field, but those shots are going to start adding up. What happens to Buffalo if he busts up his throwing shoulder on one those scrambles? Allen is a more powerful runner, but Murray is 100 times more elusive that Josh ever thought about being, and that's going to be the difference in their careers (IMO).

Is Murray playing below his talent level? Yes! He's in a bad slump, and it's possible his head is not quite right at the moment. His leadership skills are in question. There's tons of negative energy around him right now, some of which is his own fault. Everything about his game is trending in the wrong direction. It's both shocking and disappointing.

And I guess it's possible he'll never get back to an MVP level (I honestly doubt it though), and if that happens I think that would be the saddest thing in the world. If Murray and/or the Cardinals collaborate to waste the massive amount of talent he has.

But just because talent is being wasted doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Okay, flame away. Tell us how K-1 can't read defenses (even though he did so at an all-pro level in 2020 and 2021) or has bad pocket presence and blah blah blah.

 

[Shane]

No Stout, I'm talking about like, innate physical/QB talent. Accuracy, arm strength, mobility, etc.

Kyler has that in spades; and is the most physically gifted player every time he steps between the lines. You can type until you're blue in the face, but you'll never convince me that guys like L. Jackson or Burrow have more innate physical talent than K-1. Mahomes? I guess maybe... he's less mobile but probably has a better arm. Might be a push.

And I wouldn't take Allen over him because Allen takes too much punishment when he runs. It's awesome to see Josh bulldozing down the field, but those shots are going to start adding up. What happens to Buffalo if he busts up his throwing shoulder on one those scrambles? Allen is a more powerful runner, but Murray is 100 times more elusive that Josh ever thought about being, and that's going to be the difference in their careers (IMO).

Is Murray playing below his talent level? Yes! He's in a bad slump, and it's possible his head is not quite right at the moment. His leadership skills are in question. There's tons of negative energy around him right now, some of which is his own fault. Everything about his game is trending in the wrong direction. It's both shocking and disappointing.

And I guess it's possible he'll never get back to an MVP level (I honestly doubt it though), and if that happens I think that would be the saddest thing in the world. If Murray and/or the Cardinals collaborate to waste the massive amount of talent he has.

But just because talent is being wasted doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Okay, flame away. Tell us how K-1 can't read defenses (even though he did so at an all-pro level in 2020 and 2021) or has bad pocket presence and blah blah blah.

Lol you lost any and all credibility when you said you wouldn’t take Josh Allan over Kyler…. And him and Mahomes are a push…..

Bahahaha best laugh I’ll have all day

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Lol you lost any and all credibility when you said you wouldn’t take Josh Allan over Kyler…. And him and Mahomes are a push…..

Bahahaha best laugh I’ll have all day

Have to agree with Shane here.