I am not saying Colt is great (he is not) but..

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Murray had Hopkins and his 97 yards per game average for 3 of the 9 games... And he had his best buddy Marquise Brown and his 81 yards per game, and Ertz and his 44 yards per game for the other six... Neither of whom have been available to McCoy, save for 1 catch last week for Ertz. So, that's a very small nit to pick. If anything, I'd say Murray had a better receiving corps on average than McCoy, and certainly more starters on the O-line.

...dave
So Dave you’re on record as believing that the Hollywood/ertz combo is more important to the teams success than hop? I don’t know the numbers, and I’m not going to look them up, but I think it’s become pretty apparent over the past two years which has been the stronger indicator of success.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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It was on Conner.

He's stood still here and staring at McCoy.

You could argue it's a little high but Conner really should be catching that.

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Here he is stood still watching it leave McCoy's hand if in any doubt. He saw it the whole way, he should be catching it.

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This is why stills are a stupid mechanism for review. In live action that ball came out hot and travelled less than 10 yards straight away. That ball has to be accurate but even taking your still, you can see Conner isn’t square to the ball and is clearly angled away from the side where mccoy threw it and threw it high. That was a bad pass that ended up unluckily being tipped into a defenders hands. Was it totally egregious? No. But the much greater portion of blame lays in mccoys arm than in conners hand.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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You cant believe this. Money, for veterans on their second or third, or even fourth contracts ALWAYS dictates the expectations of their ability on the field. Please.
See you’re using the word “expectation” again. I am not talking expectations. I am talking standards. There is a difference.

I expect prime tom Brady to play better than frazzled Ryan lindley. But my standard for anyone who the team taps to play QB is competent-to-good play, low-to-no turnovers, and average-to-above-average scoring.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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It was on Conner.

He's stood still here and staring at McCoy.

You could argue it's a little high but Conner really should be catching that.

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Here he is stood still watching it leave McCoy's hand if in any doubt. He saw it the whole way, he should be catching it.

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Also note in the second still frame where according to you he’s just waiting for the pass his right foot is almost squarely in the middle of the hash. In you’re first still, when he is attempting to catch the ball, his right foot is a good two yards to the left of where you claimed he was just sitting waiting for it. That means he was moving left - AWAY from the direction where mccoy threw it. So unless he was running left backwards, mccoys throw was behind him and he had to turn and try to catch it one-handed. Bad throw. Thank you for helping me prove my point.
 

daves

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Murray had Hopkins and his 97 yards per game average for 3 of the 9 games... And he had his best buddy Marquise Brown and his 81 yards per game, and Ertz and his 44 yards per game for the other six... Neither of whom have been available to McCoy, save for 1 catch last week for Ertz. So, that's a very small nit to pick. If anything, I'd say Murray had a better receiving corps on average than McCoy, and certainly more starters on the O-line.

So Dave you’re on record as believing that the Hollywood/ertz combo is more important to the teams success than hop? I don’t know the numbers, and I’m not going to look them up, but I think it’s become pretty apparent over the past two years which has been the stronger indicator of success.
Well i put the numbers right there in my post. And i'm on record as believing that "not having Hopkins for 6 games" is not a valid excuse for Murray playing poorly relative to McCoy, considering that McCoy didn't have EITHER Hollywood OR Ertz for either of his games... and Murray had either Hollywood and Ertz, or Hopkins and Ertz, for all of his.

Hopkins is great, but his presence is (obviously) not a formula for automatic wins. Hollywood/Hopkins and "always open" Ertz combined for more catches and yards per game during Murray's starts, than Hopkins and Stephen "Butterfingers" Anderson and Trey McBride during McCoy's two.

...dave
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Well i put the numbers right there in my post. And i'm on record as believing that "not having Hopkins for 6 games" is not a valid excuse for Murray playing poorly relative to McCoy, considering that McCoy didn't have EITHER Hollywood OR Ertz for either of his games... and Murray had either Hollywood and Ertz, or Hopkins and Ertz, for all of his.

Hopkins is great, but his presence is (obviously) not a formula for automatic wins. Hollywood/Hopkins and "always open" Ertz combined for more catches and yards per game during Murray's starts, than Hopkins and Stephen "Butterfingers" Anderson and Trey McBride during McCoy's two.

...dave
Man you should know better than to argue comparing yardage. When they got it, how they got it, what it resulted in are all huge factors in how impactful they were on the teams success. Numbers lie all the time when discussing sports. What doesn’t tend to lie is the teams success with and without hop.

And pretty sure mccoy had hop for both games this season. Not sure where you’re getting he didn’t.
 

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Man you should know better than to argue comparing yardage. When they got it, how they got it, what it resulted in are all huge factors in how impactful they were on the teams success. Numbers lie all the time when discussing sports. What doesn’t tend to lie is the teams success with and without hop.
You're the one who started this part of the thread by quibbling with @BritCard's comparison of Murray and McCoy's stats by stating that the comparison was invalid because Murray didn't have Hopkins for 6 of 9 games. My claim is that having Hopkins for 3 games and Hollywood for 6, PLUS Ertz in all 9, was better overall than what McCoy had with Hopkins but no Hollywood OR Ertz.

And you're the one who said, "I don’t know the numbers, and I’m not going to look them up" - so i did, and now you're claiming that I'm arguing comparing yardage. :shrug: As i said... Hopkins is GREAT, but if you want to claim that it's not valid to compare (3/9 Hopkins + 6/9 Hollywood + Ertz) to (Hopkins + no Ertz), then why don't YOU provide something to back it up?

I'm on record as believing that "not having Hopkins for 6 games" is not a valid excuse for Murray playing poorly relative to McCoy, considering that McCoy didn't have EITHER Hollywood OR Ertz for either of his games... and Murray had either Hollywood and Ertz, or Hopkins and Ertz, for all of his.

And pretty sure mccoy had hop for both games this season. Not sure where you’re getting he didn’t.
Reading comprehension, my buddy!

Hope you had a great Thanksgiving!

...dave
 

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Man you should know better than to argue comparing yardage. When they got it, how they got it, what it resulted in are all huge factors in how impactful they were on the teams success. Numbers lie all the time when discussing sports. What doesn’t tend to lie is the teams success with and without hop.

And pretty sure mccoy had hop for both games this season. Not sure where you’re getting he didn’t.
Excuse making. Another trait not found in true leaders. If DHOP retires tomorrow I guess KM’s career is over. Pretty sad.
 

PJ1

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See you’re using the word “expectation” again. I am not talking expectations. I am talking standards. There is a difference.

I expect prime tom Brady to play better than frazzled Ryan lindley. But my standard for anyone who the team taps to play QB is competent-to-good play, low-to-no turnovers, and average-to-above-average scoring.
You actually listed three minimal expectations. The first being subjective and can be impacted by many things. Standards should be easily measurable and not subjective. Average to above average scoring means what? Putting up twenty points against Niners and twenty against the Texans is not the same. Applying these across the board no matter what might make you feel good. Means nothing though.
 

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Excuse making. Another trait not found in true leaders. If DHOP retires tomorrow I guess KM’s career is over. Pretty sad.
If Dhop retired tomorrow, you replace him with another great receiver. And perhaps you give thought to building a great OL and a better D so that your offense isn’t pressured into scoring every time they have the ball in order to stay competitive in games. There are not many young great QB’s in NFL history that after 4 years was still dealing with a crappy OL, crappy D, crappy coaching, and their star WR1 having missed like 13-14 straight games. And yet, somehow, his leadership skills are supposed to overcome that constant crap. Kind of reminds me of what Archie Manning had to go through years ago in New Orleans. And trust me, Archie was every bit as good as his sons, and yet, his circumstances made it impossible to have a career that he should have had. Leadership is great & it’s icing on the cake for a great QB to have. At 25, do you think Bradshaw & Montana were great leaders? No, they were not. Bradshaw was whiny, and Montana was quieter than a church mouse. But, they were surrounded quickly by talent & great coaching. And only after that did they both win 4 SB’s. And only after that did they become their respective team leaders. NO QB can do it by themselves & the Cardinals organization isn’t doing Murray any favors.
 

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The excuse machine is in overdrive today. The greats elevate those around them. Not the other way around.
Yours is a tired cliche also. The plan was to see what this offense could be with Hop, Hollywood, Ertz, and Moore on the field. And yet, we will see ZERO games this year with that group on the field. Add a team with the MOST injuries in the league & the worst defense in the league & it silly to NOT use that as an excuse. The greats CANNOT elevate those around them, when those around them are beyond being elevated.
 

PJ1

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Yours is a tired cliche also. The plan was to see what this offense could be with Hop, Hollywood, Ertz, and Moore on the field. And yet, we will see ZERO games this year with that group on the field. Add a team with the MOST injuries in the league & the worst defense in the league & it silly to NOT use that as an excuse. The greats CANNOT elevate those around them, when those around them are beyond being elevated.
All teams have injuries. The present state of the Cardinals is bad but the DHOP thing is getting old. Murray had Brown who is someone he wanted early in the year. Earlier in the year the OL wasn’t decimated. As far as the top players elevating those around them being a cliche? Actually, it is very real.
 
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PJ1

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See you’re using the word “expectation” again. I am not talking expectations. I am talking standards. There is a difference.

I expect prime tom Brady to play better than frazzled Ryan lindley. But my standard for anyone who the team taps to play QB is competent-to-good play, low-to-no turnovers, and average-to-above-average scoring.
You forgot your qualifier. All of your standards assume the QB has all of his players healthy.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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You're the one who started this part of the thread by quibbling with @BritCard's comparison of Murray and McCoy's stats by stating that the comparison was invalid because Murray didn't have Hopkins for 6 of 9 games. My claim is that having Hopkins for 3 games and Hollywood for 6, PLUS Ertz in all 9, was better overall than what McCoy had with Hopkins but no Hollywood OR Ertz.

And you're the one who said, "I don’t know the numbers, and I’m not going to look them up" - so i did, and now you're claiming that I'm arguing comparing yardage. :shrug: As i said... Hopkins is GREAT, but if you want to claim that it's not valid to compare (3/9 Hopkins + 6/9 Hollywood + Ertz) to (Hopkins + no Ertz), then why don't YOU provide something to back it up?




Reading comprehension, my buddy!

Hope you had a great Thanksgiving!

...dave
No, you’re wrong.

Hope you had a great one too!
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Excuse making. Another trait not found in true leaders. If DHOP retires tomorrow I guess KM’s career is over. Pretty sad.
I’m just going to just keep laughing at every post if your’s responding to me about being a leader because you have NO idea what you’re talking about and if you knew me, my background, etc you would be embarrassed this is freaking online sports board. There are no leadership positions on such. Even the moderators aren’t “leading,” they’re moderating. But you keep on being funny.

And I’m making no excuses for kyler, he has flat out stunk. I argued last year he stunk if he was so reliant on hop, but much of the board argued otherwise and to be honest the w-l record is difficult to argue against. What I was trying to do, but you obviously didn’t get it, was show how relative everything is with the mccoy or kyler comparison. To be honest I think the whole debate is faulty at its core as we would really need a much greater sample size from mccoy to really compare how good both are in kliff’s offense. We have a mountain of evidence for kyler. I don’t think three and two games in different seasons against limited teams is enough to make any good determination.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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You actually listed three minimal expectations. The first being subjective and can be impacted by many things. Standards should be easily measurable and not subjective. Average to above average scoring means what? Putting up twenty points against Niners and twenty against the Texans is not the same. Applying these across the board no matter what might make you feel good. Means nothing though.
You and I just aren’t going to connect on anything so whatever you want to end with, I’ll let you have the last word.
 
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PJ1

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I’m just going to just keep laughing at every post if your’s responding to me about being a leader because you have NO idea what you’re talking about and if you knew me, my background, etc you would be embarrassed this is freaking online sports board. There are no leadership positions on such. Even the moderators aren’t “leading,” they’re moderating. But you keep on being funny.

And I’m making no excuses for kyler, he has flat out stunk. I argued last year he stunk if he was so reliant on hop, but much of the board argued otherwise and to be honest the w-l record is difficult to argue against. What I was trying to do, but you obviously didn’t get it, was show how relative everything is with the mccoy or kyler comparison. To be honest I think the whole debate is faulty at its core as we would really need a much greater sample size from mccoy to really compare how good both are in kliff’s offense. We have a mountain of evidence for kyler. I don’t think three and two games in different seasons against limited teams is enough to make any good determination.
Oh, if I knew you. LOL. I don't need to know you. I am embarrassed for you now. You are the one challenging everyone on who they believe is a leader is, including the definition. Oh, and you and others on the board have held several leadership positions and I probably never experienced real leadership. I mean are you for real? Gaslight away my friend.
 
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PACardsFan

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All teams have injuries. The present state of the Cardinals is bad but the DHOP thing is getting old. Murray had Brown who is someone he wanted early in the year. Earlier in the year the OL wasn’t decimated. As far as the top players elevating those around them being a cliche? Actually, it is very real.
Yes, all teams have injuries. But, the Cardinals LEAD the league in injuries. Big difference. Even if our OL wasn’t “decimated” earlier in the year, it was still a bad OL. And yes, Murray had Brown, and they were very good together. Just not good enough to overcome not having Hop playing. Bottom line, when your HC & DC both stink, you stink in the trenches on both sides of the ball, your WR1 has to sit 6 games, and then your WR2 gets hurt just as your WR1 returns, then there is very little left to elevate.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Oh, if I knew you. LOL. I don't need to know you. I am embarrassed for you now. You are the one challenging everyone on who they believe is a leader is, including the definition. Oh, and you and others on the board have held several leadership positions and I probably never experienced real leadership. I mean are you for real? Gaslight away my friend.
Good job. Enough of this silliness.
 

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