I don't get it.

[AzStevenCal]

Simmons said on his latest podcast that he thinks Ayton is an empty stats guy. Meanwhile he uses phrases like “eye test” for Doncic. His mind was totally made up before the draft. Whatever he says now is just to validate that.

Meanwhile Ayton does everything “quietly,”which is a hallmark of everything that’s supposed to be good about him—footwork, balance, and athleticism for his size—but it also gives his critics what they want.

The bottom line is that it’s not zero-sum between Doncic and Ayton. My guess is that they both have great careers.

Most of the time I think that phrase is code for "I don't like the guy but I can't prove he sucks". What is an empty stats guy? Has there ever been a player that played starter minutes and put up completely meaningless stats? Of course not. Do players occasionally gain stats without helping their team? Of course, all of them do. You can't watch a few minutes or a few games and learn whether a person's stats are significantly inflated so until you can show me advanced stats that show the person isn't helping his team with those stats, it's silly to use the phrase IMO.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Most of the time I think that phrase is code for "I don't like the guy but I can't prove he sucks". What is an empty stats guy? Has there ever been a player that played starter minutes and put up completely meaningless stats? Of course not. Do players occasionally gain stats without helping their team? Of course, all of them do. You can't watch a few minutes or a few games and learn whether a person's stats are significantly inflated so until you can show me advanced stats that show the person isn't helping his team with those stats, it's silly to use the phrase IMO.

The team is better with Ayton on the floor. That seems to clearly point to him NOT being an "empty stats guy". Simmons is an idiot.

 

[devilalum]

Centers always take longer to reach their potential. Even most of the greatest ones didn’t have All Star stats in their rookie seasons. Ayton is going to get bigger and stronger and his game will benefit from that in a huge way. Doncic will improve but he won’t change physically. He is amazingly crafty and skilled but his lack of athleticism will always be his shortcoming.


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[itlnsunsfan]

Centers always take longer to reach their potential. Even most of the greatest ones didn’t have All Star stats in their rookie seasons. Ayton is going to get bigger and stronger and his game will benefit from that in a huge way. Doncic will improve but he won’t change physically. He is amazingly crafty and skilled but his lack of athleticism will always be his shortcoming.


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It wasn't for Larry Bird.

 

[Hoop Head]

Centers always take longer to reach their potential. Even most of the greatest ones didn’t have All Star stats in their rookie seasons. Ayton is going to get bigger and stronger and his game will benefit from that in a huge way. Doncic will improve but he won’t change physically. He is amazingly crafty and skilled but his lack of athleticism will always be his shortcoming.


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I think it would be more accurate to say he won't improve physically. I could see him changing physically but not in a positive way. He's in good enough shape now that he's able to do everything needed to excel but it's not hard to see him putting on 15-20 pounds and being slowed down to a Turkoglu level. That is a concern the Mavericks and Doncic fans should have. He'd still have a decent career but he's not leading a team if he loses what little quickness he has now. I know a few people have commented on his physique so far and I don't think anyone has said anything positive about it other than it works for him. He's not built like your average all-star though.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Two different players, two different ways to impact the game. Its like comparing Kareem and Magic. Magic will always get the hype, but Kareem was essential to those teams. Centers don't usually get the attention that the wings do, but great centers are harder to find.

 

[SirStefan32]

I think it would be more accurate to say he won't improve physically. I could see him changing physically but not in a positive way. He's in good enough shape now that he's able to do everything needed to excel but it's not hard to see him putting on 15-20 pounds and being slowed down to a Turkoglu level. That is a concern the Mavericks and Doncic fans should have. He'd still have a decent career but he's not leading a team if he loses what little quickness he has now. I know a few people have commented on his physique so far and I don't think anyone has said anything positive about it other than it works for him. He's not built like your average all-star though.

I disagree. He's gonna turn some of that fat into muscle, and he'll be even tougher to guard.

 

[1tinsoldier]

i know it's customary to take a position and fight for it
but, imo, all of the opinions on Ayton, Holmes, and Doncic here have some merit

if "empty stats" are stats that aren't impactful - that another player would get if they were substituted,
Ayton certainly gets some. in particular rebounds.
Holmes aggressively goes and gets rebounds.
Ayton reaches for them with much less leg work.
but Ayton affects the game by his mere presence -- often doubled -- always a problem for defenses
some of the stats Holmes gets are because defenses are NOT worried about him

 

[GatorAZ]

I disagree. He's gonna turn some of that fat into muscle, and he'll be even tougher to guard.

He doesn’t need to add significant weight. Sonething like 10-15 lbs of lean bulk will be sufficient. I think *if he learns to be more aggressive than weight/frame issues won’t matter.

I always considered KG to have a great frame for a big. He wasn’t bulky but he played stronger than he was. If Aytoncan develop that aggression and decisiveness watchout.

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[Mainstreet]

He doesn’t need to add significant weight. Sonething like 10-15 lbs of lean bulk will be sufficient. I think *if he learns to be more aggressive than weight/frame issues won’t matter.

I always considered KG to have a great frame for a big. He wasn’t bulky but he played stronger than he was. If Aytoncan develop that aggression and decisiveness watchout.

And shave his head.

 

[JCSunsfan]

He doesn’t need to add significant weight. Sonething like 10-15 lbs of lean bulk will be sufficient. I think *if he learns to be more aggressive than weight/frame issues won’t matter.

I always considered KG to have a great frame for a big. He wasn’t bulky but he played stronger than he was. If Aytoncan develop that aggression and decisiveness watchout.

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Well first, the comment about turning some fat into muscle was about Doncic, I think, not Ayton.

But second, you are right about Ayton. He is going to add to his frame just by maturing. While men often stop growing taller at 18-19 their frame widens and they typically add muscle through age 25 just naturally. Without a lot of gym work, Ayton is going to be 7-1, 265-70 just because.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

It wasn't for Larry Bird.

Larry Bird was essentially a PF with the game of a guard (6'9", 230 lbs) and played in a league that was less athletic than the current league. That being said Larry's size was a matchup nightmare for opposing defenses because if he got a big man on him he was quick enough to go by them and if he got a smaller guy on him he could bully his way to wherever he wanted to go. Doncic will be able to do this too an extent, but not as well as Larry did largely because of the athleticism of his opposition. Nowadays there are even 7' centers that are athletic enough to cover Doncic on the perimeter.

 

[itlnsunsfan]

Larry Bird was essentially a PF with the game of a guard (6'9", 230 lbs) and played in a league that was less athletic than the current league. That being said Larry's size was a matchup nightmare for opposing defenses because if he got a big man on him he was quick enough to go by them and if he got a smaller guy on him he could bully his way to wherever he wanted to go. Doncic will be able to do this too an extent, but not as well as Larry did largely because of the athleticism of his opposition. Nowadays there are even 7' centers that are athletic enough to cover Doncic on the perimeter.

Lol he's been bullying smaller players and making larger players look silly as a 19 year old rookie. He's probably still growing. You think he's going to get worse at this?

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Lol he's been bullying smaller players and making larger players look silly as a 19 year old rookie. He's probably still growing. You think he's going to get worse at this?

Where did you come to the conclusion that I think he will get worse at anything? I also do think he will still get quite a bit better at quite a few things, but comparing him to Bird at this point is pretty over the top IMO. It's like the people comparing Ayton to a young David Robinson. I mean maybe he gets there some day, but he has a long ways to go to get to that level.

 

[GatorAZ]

Well first, the comment about turning some fat into muscle was about Doncic, I think, not Ayton.

But second, you are right about Ayton. He is going to add to his frame just by maturing. While men often stop growing taller at 18-19 their frame widens and they typically add muscle through age 25 just naturally. Without a lot of gym work, Ayton is going to be 7-1, 265-70 just because.

Yep. He moves well for his size/age but I don’t want added bulk to change him into a “lumberer” especially with the pace of play today. Cardio and coordination are most important right now and like you said the natural strength will come.

 

[Chaplin]

I’m flabbergasted by the those here that are hyping Holmes more than Ayton. Fun? Yes. Good help in wins? Sure. Better and more impactful than Deandre Ayton? ABOSOLUTELY NOT.

 

[1tinsoldier]

I’m flabbergasted by the those here that are hyping Holmes more than Ayton

when you exaggerate, it's easy to get "flabbergasted"

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I think it would be more accurate to say he won't improve physically. I could see him changing physically but not in a positive way. He's in good enough shape now that he's able to do everything needed to excel but it's not hard to see him putting on 15-20 pounds and being slowed down to a Turkoglu level. That is a concern the Mavericks and Doncic fans should have. He'd still have a decent career but he's not leading a team if he loses what little quickness he has now. I know a few people have commented on his physique so far and I don't think anyone has said anything positive about it other than it works for him. He's not built like your average all-star though.

Uh he’s doughy. He could definitely get in better shape which should result in being quicker and stronger. Imo he has just as much opportunity to improve physically as he does to get worse. He’s still 19. His body is still evolving and he’s just now in a US strength and conditioning regiment which is supposed to be vastly better than euro.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Where did you come to the conclusion that I think he will get worse at anything? I also do think he will still get quite a bit better at quite a few things, but comparing him to Bird at this point is pretty over the top IMO. It's like the people comparing Ayton to a young David Robinson. I mean maybe he gets there some day, but he has a long ways to go to get to that level.

Isn’t that what projecting players is all about? Make as close to a good guess as possible? Who is saying Doncic is bird or Ayton is the admiral?

 

[Krangodnzr]

Simmons said on his latest podcast that he thinks Ayton is an empty stats guy. Meanwhile he uses phrases like “eye test” for Doncic. His mind was totally made up before the draft. Whatever he says now is just to validate that.

Meanwhile Ayton does everything “quietly,”which is a hallmark of everything that’s supposed to be good about him—footwork, balance, and athleticism for his size—but it also gives his critics what they want.

The bottom line is that it’s not zero-sum between Doncic and Ayton. My guess is that they both have great careers.

Simmons is just ultra opinionated and once he crafts that opinion he sticks with it to the point of ridiculousness.

His man love for Tatum is ridiculous. Tatum is a nice player, and if you remember, I was clearly a Tatum advocate when he came out. But Simmons talks about Tatum like he is already a superstar, when I don't even think he's touched Bookers level yet.

 

[BC867]

I agree with most of what you say but when people think Holmes is better than Ayton that’s overrating.

I think they were referring to Holmes immediate impact as a difference maker -- scoring, rebounding, hustling -- reflecting his four years of experience. And the fact that Igor had Holmes closing some games at Center as we began winning.

I don't believe that anyone thinks that, as the rookie Ayton builds experience, he will be the second best Center on the team.

As I posted, we have a helluva tandem in Ayton and Holmes at the Center position. Or, as some (including myself) have suggested, if they play side by side at C and PF, which is not going to happen.

 

[Western Font]

It’s great having Holmes and Ayton in the same team. Chandler was sold as a mentor as most late-career expensive players are, but didn’t seem to have an impact on Len or Ayton. Meanwhile Crawford and Holmes are illustrating what it is to make the most of your role.

 

[Milgod]

aggressive & lazy are a bad combination
first you post Britney Spears instead of an opinion
then, you bust my basketballs a 2nd time
after i already replied and quoted myself saying "similar stats"?
kindly look back in this thread and find my alleged "as many points and more rebounds" post
OR
as you say, "admit you were wrong and move on"

Fair enough. It was another one of you that said that (although you said you agreed with them). I group all crazies in together as one ball of oddness.

 

[itlnsunsfan]

Where did you come to the conclusion that I think he will get worse at anything? I also do think he will still get quite a bit better at quite a few things, but comparing him to Bird at this point is pretty over the top IMO. It's like the people comparing Ayton to a young David Robinson. I mean maybe he gets there some day, but he has a long ways to go to get to that level.

You said that Doncic won't be able to bully smaller defenders and beat larger defenders to the extent that Bird did because of the increased athleticism of the league. The point I am making is he is already dominating the league, bullying smaller defenders and beating bigger defenders. The increased athleticism has not fazed him one bit as a 19 year old rookie. He's playing at a historically great level, second at his age only to Lebron, although Doncic shoots better. He's probably still growing and will only improve. I think a comparison to Bird is perfectly reasonable.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

You said that Doncic won't be able to bully smaller defenders and beat larger defenders to the extent that Bird did because of the increased athleticism of the league. The point I am making is he is already dominating the league, bullying smaller defenders and beating bigger defenders. The increased athleticism has not fazed him one bit as a 19 year old rookie. He's playing at a historically great level, second at his age only to Lebron, although Doncic shoots better. He's probably still growing and will only improve. I think a comparison to Bird is perfectly reasonable.

"Dominating the league" is quite a bit over the top. He is a rookie that is having a good rookie year. He has a ways to go to get to the point of dominating.