Top 5 WR's

[kerouac9]

I find this very hard to believe given Fitz had a 11.3 YAC with his longest catch being34 yards while AJs was 15.5. with a 72 yard long.

Furthermore, Fitz only had one game where his longest catch was 30+ yards. And once again, if you did watch Cards games, you would have realized that Warner RARELY threw deep due to his injury. This along with Q's presence did not benefit Fitz.

Where he did do better than AJ last season was in the endzone. 13 TDs to 9.

Put Fitz in the same situation and I believe he'd do a lot better. I think if you look beyond the numbers, you'd realize this.

Take it up with Football Outsiders. They're the ones who watch all the games. It probably has something to do with Andre having 538 YAC (5.32/catch) yards and Fitz only having 295 (3.04). Andre is better after the catch.

Are you saying that Matt Schaub is a better quarterback than Kurt Warner? Is that really the argument that you want to run with? Are you saying that Kubiak's offense is better than Whis's? The Houston Texans were a worse running team than the Cards last season.

I'm not only looking at the numbers; I'm watching the games. Warner threw short 49% of the time last season, and short or middle 84% of the time (!). But when he looked to Larry, he was looking for Larry deeper than anyone else.

And it's not like Q was taking away Larry's deep balls. 85% of Q's passes were short or midrange. 35% of passes intended for Breaston were deeper passes.

Might as well mention this here: According to FO, both players took huge steps back last season. Neither AJ nor Fitz were in the Top 20 in DVOA (value per play) last year (although both Kevin Walter [8] and Steve Breaston [20] were). Both Larry (11) and Andre (13) weren't even in the Top 10 of DYAR (Total value) in 2009.

Top 5 WRs last season according to FO: S. Rice, V. Jackson, W. Welker, M. Austin, and R. Moss.

 

[TJ]

Take it up with Football Outsiders. They're the ones who watch all the games. It probably has something to do with Andre having 538 YAC (5.32/catch) yards and Fitz only having 295 (3.04). Andre is better after the catch.

While I agree AJ is better at YAC, it also includes go routes hit in stride. Fitz didnt have very many opportunities.

Are you saying that Matt Schaub is a better quarterback than Kurt Warner? Is that really the argument that you want to run with?

Hell no. Show me where I said this? I believe my statement was that Schaub threw more deep balls than Warner. And I have no effing clue where that stat is derived from because Warner hardly threw the ball past 30 yards last season. I seem to recall myself and many other Cards fans questioning Warner's reluctance to go deep. In addition, Warner was unbiased with who he threw the ball to which meant the wealth was spread fairly evenly. IIRC, Schaub threw into tight coverage much more often to get the ball to AJ, especially after Owen Daniels went down.

Are you saying that Kubiak's offense is better than Whis's? The Houston Texans were a worse running team than the Cards last season.

so if HOU was a worse running team, wouldnt they pass more often?? Just saying.

I'm not only looking at the numbers; I'm watching the games. Warner threw short 49% of the time last season, and short or middle 84% of the time (!). But when he looked to Larry, he was looking for Larry deeper than anyone else.

Perhaps, but like I said above the deep ball was not in play very often. This was acknowledged by Chris Miller after the season before a promise that Leinart will throw deep more often in 2010.

And it's not like Q was taking away Larry's deep balls. 85% of Q's passes were short or midrange. 35% of passes intended for Breaston were deeper passes.

Again, there were hardly any deep balls to had. Q cant steal what wasnt there.

Might as well mention this here: According to FO, both players took huge steps back last season. Neither AJ nor Fitz were in the Top 20 in DVOA (value per play) last year (although both Kevin Walter [8] and Steve Breaston [20] were). Both Larry (11) and Andre (13) weren't even in the Top 10 of DYAR (Total value) in 2009.

Interesting, but stats like these really mean nothing to me. I think if you were to ask analysts, they would say Larry and Andre are 1 and 2 in whatever order. And I would also venture to guess that coaches would rather have these two than Walter and Breaston.

Top 5 WRs last season according to FO: S. Rice, V. Jackson, W. Welker, M. Austin, and R. Moss.

This is funny given Fitz, AJ and Wayne are not on there. I question the validity of FO's determination of this information.

 

[jw7]

OK, let's just put it on the line. Fitz and AJ have relatively comparable salaries. Who would trade Fitz for AJ straight up? I sure as heck would not even consider it.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

OK, let's just put it on the line. Fitz and AJ have relatively comparable salaries. Who would trade Fitz for AJ straight up? I sure as heck would not even consider it.

i'm sure in Houston they wouldn't trade AJ for Fitz either. Let's just say they're both pretty darn good.

 

[Shane]

OK, let's just put it on the line. Fitz and AJ have relatively comparable salaries. Who would trade Fitz for AJ straight up? I sure as heck would not even consider it.

Its a completely moot point and all Cards fans except K9 and I argue this with rose colored glasses on.

If the two were on different teams IE Johnson the Cardinals and Fitz the Texans both TJ and AF would argue it the other way and your post would be reversed saying you sure as hell would not trade Johnson for Fitz straight up. GUARANTEED!

Its not Johnsons fault he hasn't been in the post season this is the ultimate team sport.

What gets me is all the people that say that they take Fitz over Johnson due to work ethic and character? Can someone show me any shred of evidence calling into question either of those two things when it comes to Johnson? Because I have never read or heard anything but glowing remarks for Johnson in those two areas as well.

 

[WarnerHOF]

I agree with CBus. Both are elite WRs with little separation between the two.

Though AJ has very good character as a quiet guy and hard worker, I don't think it's on the level of the character and leadership displayed by Fitz who is pretty much a WR coach off the field.

 

[Lomax to Green 84]

Here's a bit of irony in the Fitz/Johnson debate. Back in 2003 the Cardinals had the #6 overall selection. Rod Graves and Dave McGinnis said that there were only 2 guys on their board that would keep them at #6. One was the cornerback from Kansas State (plays for the Cowboys-name escapes me) and the other was Andre Johnson. When both were picked ahead of the Cardinals, they went for the infamous trade with New Orleans that netted them Calvin Pace and Bryant Johnson.

I'm with K9 and Shane on this one. Andre Johnson is an absolute freak of nature. I love Fitz, but to say that Johnson is overrated is ridiculous.

 

[TJ]

Here's a bit of irony in the Fitz/Johnson debate. Back in 2003 the Cardinals had the #6 overall selection. Rod Graves and Dave McGinnis said that there were only 2 guys on their board that would keep them at #6. One was the cornerback from Kansas State (plays for the Cowboys-name escapes me) and the other was Andre Johnson. When both were picked ahead of the Cardinals, they went for the infamous trade with New Orleans that netted them Calvin Pace and Bryant Johnson.

I'm with K9 and Shane on this one. Andre Johnson is an absolute freak of nature. I love Fitz, but to say that Johnson is overrated is ridiculous.

No one is saying that AJ is overrated. My argument is that Id take Fitz for the reasons I stated earlier. This is not to mitigate AJs talents at all but rather make a case for Fitz as the #1 WR in the league. AJ is still a monster receiver

The cornerback you were referring to was Terrance Newman out of K State

 

[TJ]

Its a completely moot point and all Cards fans except K9 and I argue this with rose colored glasses on.

If the two were on different teams IE Johnson the Cardinals and Fitz the Texans both TJ and AF would argue it the other way and your post would be reversed saying you sure as hell would not trade Johnson for Fitz straight up. GUARANTEED!

Its not Johnsons fault he hasn't been in the post season this is the ultimate team sport.

What gets me is all the people that say that they take Fitz over Johnson due to work ethic and character? Can someone show me any shred of evidence calling into question either of those two things when it comes to Johnson? Because I have never read or heard anything but glowing remarks for Johnson in those two areas as well.

Is there a money back on that guarantee? Or at least a free dinner at Morton's steakhouse

 

[cardsfanmd]

You guys are INSANE!!!!!!!!!!!!

I love Fitz, but Johnson is CLEARLY the best WR in the game and the reasons posters are using to downgrade him are nothing more than ignorant. Johnson is a great leader and teammate. His franchise loves him. Also, since when is Fitz the hardest worker on this team?? I know he is a hard worker, but to insult guys like A-Dub, Dockett and Haggans is wrong. Q taught Fitz how to work. Why not just be honest and I say "I haven't seen Johnson play enough to determine how good he really is, but I wouldn't trade Fitz for any WR in the game because of what he does and means to my team"??

There is nothing wrong w/ being #2 in this discussion IMO.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

You guys are INSANE!!!!!!!!!!!!

I love Fitz, but Johnson is CLEARLY the best WR in the game and the reasons posters are using to downgrade him are nothing more than ignorant. Johnson is a great leader and teammate. His franchise loves him. Also, since when is Fitz the hardest worker on this team?? I know he is a hard worker, but to insult guys like A-Dub, Dockett and Haggans is wrong. Q taught Fitz how to work. Why not just be honest and I say "I haven't seen Johnson play enough to determine how good he really is, but I wouldn't trade Fitz for any WR in the game because of what he does and means to my team"??

There is nothing wrong w/ being #2 in this discussion IMO.

Clearly?

I think it is a tie. Andre has more speed, and Fitz has more night and better hands.

 

[Mulli]

It doesn't matter.

 

[DoTheDew]

FWIW, Fitz had a future Hall of fame QB throwing to him, Johnson didn't. After a season of Leinart, I think opinions will start to shift in AJs favor.

If AJ had Manning or Brees throwing to him I think he'd break records. Just saying.

 

[kerouac9]

FWIW, Fitz had a future Hall of fame QB throwing to him, Johnson didn't. After a season of Leinart, I think opinions will start to shift in AJs favor.

If AJ had Manning or Brees throwing to him I think he'd break records. Just saying.

Well, Matt Schaub was pretty good last year--he lead the league in passing yardage. But I will say that people are underestimating that Gary Kubiak runs a modified West Coast system that he brought from Denver under Shanahan, and that is not a system that would be designed to play to Fitz's strengths.

I do think that with Q out of the rotation and more emphasis on a play-action running game (if that is what happens), Fitz's production won't drop off as much as people think. Matt has the arm to get Larry the jump balls in the same way that Warner did, it's just a question of whether Matt can get the ball to the spaces where Fitz can reach up for it on those deep ins that Warner was so good at coming out of St. Louis.

It's just that people who say that Andre Johnson isn't the best WR in the NFL aren't watching enough Texans tape. AJ can make 85% of the plays that Fitz does, but also make 70% of the plays that Q did. I came away from the Texans-Cards game thinking that Fitz is an amazing player--and he is. But Andre Johnson right now is in a class by himself.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

You guys are INSANE!!!!!!!!!!!!

I love Fitz, but Johnson is CLEARLY the best WR in the game and the reasons posters are using to downgrade him are nothing more than ignorant. Johnson is a great leader and teammate. His franchise loves him. Also, since when is Fitz the hardest worker on this team?? I know he is a hard worker, but to insult guys like A-Dub, Dockett and Haggans is wrong. Q taught Fitz how to work. Why not just be honest and I say "I haven't seen Johnson play enough to determine how good he really is, but I wouldn't trade Fitz for any WR in the game because of what he does and means to my team"??

There is nothing wrong w/ being #2 in this discussion IMO.

Wow if one more poster says "well watch more Texans games" I am going to flip out. I watched 6 (count em 6) Texans games last year on the Sunday ticket and made a point to. He is damn good. He is physically superior to Fitz in everything except maybe hands.

But I have never seen Johnson carry a team when it mattered most from the WR postion the way Fitz did two years ago. Is that fair to be skeptical that he would in the playoffs with defenses designed to stop him and playing the best teams?

Also I have never heard of Johnson taking in a young player and helping groom him. Maybe if Fitz doesnt take Beanie under his wing last year, hes a completely different player and secretly dying to get out of Az. Who knows? But how many wins is a productive Beanie to you?

Fitz is respected around the league for his work ethic. Look at his camps and what the players say about him. Go read Jennings quotes from last year. That kind of stuff matters to me.

I'll say it again if one more person says I don't watch enough football, I'm going to go crazy.

I'll take AJ for my fantasy team. I'll take Fitz for the Cardinals.

I know you and K9 are playing the "we can see the forest through the trees" angle here, and while I love ya both, I want Fitz bar none.

And that doesn't make me any less insightful on the subject. I just value the inatangibles more. AJ might not be a detriment to his team, but he is a self professed guy who leads by example. I think Fitz's intangibles are through the roof. Thats no knock on Johnson. But like you say with AJ's physical skills, Fitz is "all time" in the intangibles space.

 

[Mulli]

Wow if one more poster says "well watch more Texans games" I am going to flip out. I watched 6 (count em 6) Texans games last year on the Sunday ticket and made a point to. He is damn good. He is physically superior to Fitz in everything except maybe hands.

But I have never seen Johnson carry a team when it mattered most from the WR postion the way Fitz did two years ago. Is that fair to be skeptical that he would in the playoffs with defenses designed to stop him and playing the best teams?

Also I have never heard of Johnson taking in a young player and helping groom him. Maybe if Fitz doesnt take Beanie under his wing last year, hes a completely different player and secretly dying to get out of Az. Who knows? But how many wins is a productive Beanie to you?

Fitz is respected around the league for his work ethic. Look at his camps and what the players say about him. Go read Jennings quotes from last year. That kind of stuff matters to me.

I'll say it again if one more person says I don't watch enough football, I'm going to go crazy.

I'll take AJ for my fantasy team. I'll take Fitz for the Cardinals.

I know you and K9 are playing the "we can see the forest through the trees" angle here, and while I love ya both, I want Fitz bar none.

And that doesn't make me any less insightful on the subject. I just value the inatangibles more. AJ might not be a detriment to his team, but he is a self professed guy who leads by example. I think Fitz's intangibles are through the roof. Thats no knock on Johnson. But like you say with AJ's physical skills, Fitz is "all time" in the intangibles space.

AJ has been in league for a while now. I think you need to watch more Texan games. Six might not be enough.

 

[DoTheDew]

What it comes down to is, AJ and Fitz are 1 and 1a. You can't go wrong with either one. Any team would take either one. If they were ever on the same team, you may not even need a running back on the roster.

I just don't get why everyone is so up in arms about AJ being #1, rather than making a fuss about Wayne being ahead of Fitz on this list.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

AJ has been in league for a while now. I think you need to watch more Texan games. Six might not be enough.

If you are being serious, I meant just last year. I have watched him play numerous times over his career. Don't get me wrong he is awesome and I recognize it.

And if you were being a then bully for you.

 

[Mulli]

Thats just last year. I have watched him play numerous times over hsi career. Don't get me wrong he is awesome.

And if you were being a then bully for you.

Keep watching.

: biglaugh:

 

[cardsfanmd]

Wow if one more poster says "well watch more Texans games" I am going to flip out. I watched 6 (count em 6) Texans games last year on the Sunday ticket and made a point to. He is damn good. He is physically superior to Fitz in everything except maybe hands.

But I have never seen Johnson carry a team when it mattered most from the WR postion the way Fitz did two years ago. Is that fair to be skeptical that he would in the playoffs with defenses designed to stop him and playing the best teams?

Also I have never heard of Johnson taking in a young player and helping groom him. Maybe if Fitz doesnt take Beanie under his wing last year, hes a completely different player and secretly dying to get out of Az. Who knows? But how many wins is a productive Beanie to you?

Fitz is respected around the league for his work ethic. Look at his camps and what the players say about him. Go read Jennings quotes from last year. That kind of stuff matters to me.

I'll say it again if one more person says I don't watch enough football, I'm going to go crazy.

I'll take AJ for my fantasy team. I'll take Fitz for the Cardinals.

I know you and K9 are playing the "we can see the forest through the trees" angle here, and while I love ya both, I want Fitz bar none.

And that doesn't make me any less insightful on the subject. I just value the inatangibles more. AJ might not be a detriment to his team, but he is a self professed guy who leads by example. I think Fitz's intangibles are through the roof. Thats no knock on Johnson. But like you say with AJ's physical skills, Fitz is "all time" in the intangibles space.

You need to watch more football.

 

[82CardsGrad]

Keep watching.

: biglaugh:

You need to watch more football.

LMFAO!!!!

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Keep watching.

: biglaugh:

You need to watch more football.

If only my fiance would tell me that

 

[IAWarnerFan]

Clearly?

I think it is a tie. Andre has more speed, and Fitz has more night and better hands.

It depends what type of WR you'd want. If you want the best hands you'd go with Fitz, but Johnson has a better chance to break a big play due to his better speed. I'll give a slight edge to the better hands.