This Sunday VS Detroit

Will You Attend The Lions Game

  • Yes

    Votes: 20 43.5%
  • No

    Votes: 26 56.5%

  • Total voters
    46

kerouac9

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Calvin Johnson is ranked #1 in DYAR because he's a great WR.

If Megatron were ranked #1 and Fitz were ranked 15, we could have an argument. But Fitz is rated 88th. That's obviously far below his playing ability. But Fitz is also being made to look bad because he's demanding the ball over and over.

You can't make an argument for Fitz being better than Megatron. There's no argument that a small, finesse route-running advantage outweighs the sheer physical superiority of Megatron on every level.

Fitz is last on FO's ranking of WRs. Last. I'm not sure there's a world where last really means first, even if Ryan Lindley is your quarterback.
 

Superfuzz

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Also, this got me thinking about AJ Green.

Green, who is definitely one of the top 3 or 4 WRs, only has a DVOA of 5.2% and is ranked 20th in DYAR behind heavyweights like Eric Decker (once again proving it has a lot more to do with your QB and offense than personal ability, although having them both helps like it does for CJ), Sidney Rice, James Jones, Danario Alexander, Randall Cobb, Lance Moore, etc.

Cincinnati is ranked a very pedestrian 15th in overall offense.

Of the top 3 players in DYAR so far in 2012, they are:

1. Calvin Johnson (DET)
2. Demariyus Thomas (DEN)
3. Andre Johnson (HOU)


Those team's offensive ranks:

DET #2
DEN #4
HOU #6


Generally speaking, good players from good offenses rank highly, good players from average offenses rank in a mediocre range and good players on bad offenses rank poorly.


AJ Green is nowhere near as bad as the 20th-worst WR in the NFL.
 

Superfuzz

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Calvin Johnson is ranked #1 in DYAR because he's a great WR.

Right, I have agreed with that. What I am saying however, is that he also benefits from playing on a good offense. Do you disagree?
If Megatron were ranked #1 and Fitz were ranked 15, we could have an argument. But Fitz is rated 88th. That's obviously far below his playing ability. But Fitz is also being made to look bad because he's demanding the ball over and over.

This is a red herring. When has he demanded the ball? And if so, how is that pertinent to the argument that he is as good as CJ? CJ doesn't have to demand the ball because he plays for a functional football team. Fitz never had to do that when Warner was here either (if he is even doing it now). You're too hung up on a ranking that has very little bearing on a player's ability independent of his offense.

You can't make an argument for Fitz being better than Megatron. There's no argument that a small, finesse route-running advantage outweighs the sheer physical superiority of Megatron on every level.

I didn't. I said if they played on the same offense, Fitz would be AT LEAST as good. There's more to being an elite WR than catch radius and/or route-running ability. What I am saying is, given equal opportunity, CJ is at best slightly better than Fitz. Remember Rod Gardner? He was a physical freak, too. But that alone didn't even make him average. Calvin has a lot more going for him than just that, like work ethic, route running, hands, a better offense and countless other variables just like Fitz has (or did in the Warner era), so he's no Rod Gardner, but the importance of being 6'5 236 vs. 6'3 218 is being overstated by you here.

Jerry Rice's vitals? 6'2, 200lbs.

Fitz is last on FO's ranking of WRs. Last. I'm not sure there's a world where last really means first, even if Ryan Lindley is your quarterback.

It's a team sport. Like I said, if you're Jeff Gordon driving a Honda Civic, you're gonna lose to me or you driving an F1 car every time.

And by that logic, Eric Decker and Danario Alexander are better than AJ Green or Larry Fitzgerald.

So you are saying by your unwavering faith in DYAR and DVOA that the Bengals should Swap AJ for Decker, or that the Cards should swap Larry for Alexander. It's not as telling a stat on an individual talent level. Production will go down if your offense sucks. For everyone. Once again, do you really think Calvin Johnson would have the Cards in the midst of the playoff hunt or at number 2 in the offensive rankings if we swapped him straight up for Larry?
 

Superfuzz

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And Kerouac, I hope we can agree on one thing: that we both want the Cards to find their franchise QB ASAP! For your sake, my sake, and Larry's sake! :)
 

MrYeahBut

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My wife and I are coming to the game and Bears game too. At least we'll get to stand and scream, for good or bad. Wouldn't miss them.


Edit: I was hoping Dawg would be at the game so the 'tell you to sit down Nazis' would be focusing on him and not me.:D
 

kerouac9

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SuperFuzz, if your argument is that Fitz is BETTER than Megatron, you're never going to get me to agree with you. If your argument is that Fitz is AS GOOD AS Megatron, you're not going to get me to agree with you, either. I believe in physical talent being the dominant factor between elite players. Before Andre Johnson's injury problems and the rise of Megatron, I argued that Andre was better than Fitz. Now Megatron is on top of the mountain.

Can Fitz's name be mentioned again among the best wide receivers in the game? Of course. If he had a functional quarterback, he probably would easily re-establish himself there. But it's not a fait accompli that he's the best wide receiver in the game. He's not good enough to transcend terrible quarterback play, and I've seen him give up on plays this year.

I love me some Fitz. I wear his jersey most Sundays, and I admire him as a player and a person. No one outworks Fitz. Years ago I was at a coaching clinic and Fitz's college head coach was speaking and nearly talked about him in hushed tones. Fitz is the only reason to watch the offense, because the ball occiasionally finds Fitz's hands, and he looks like the old Fitz.

But he also pouts, and gives up on plays, and shows up his quarterback.
 

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