The ONLY reason I want Sean Payton

Stout

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To be fair, Murray was holding a gun to their head, and at that point in time you could argue that K1 had shown enough on the field so that it made sense to do the deal.

What do the British say about hindsight @BritCard? :)
Uh, it's not hindsight when posters were going nuts saying it would be stupid to do. Kyler's gun didn't have any bullets in it and he had certainly not shown enough on the field to earn jack squat. Too many injuries and too many utter collapses.
 

Cardsfaninlouky

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I know this much, Payton has a SB ring & a plan for Kyler, got robbed of another possible ring by a missed PI call. Does Flores or Reich or Ryans? That's a rhetorical question BTW lol. I'm not wanting to give up our #3 pick for Payton but there's something the Saints would be comfortable with if Bidwill really wanted to make it happen. If those other 3 coaches I mentioned above aren't willing to park Kyler's ass under center & make him run a conventional NFL offense then the Cardinals are just wasting their time hiring any of them. I have no idea what's gonna happen but if Payton doesn't even get an interview then that's a ******* shame imo.
 

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There is no way the Cards are giving up the 3 rd pick of the draft. That would be like giving the Saints 3 picks.
MO didn’t come here with a preconceived hiring of Payton…unless he was communicating with Payton himself.
 

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To be fair, Murray was holding a gun to their head, and at that point in time you could argue that K1 had shown enough on the field so that it made sense to do the deal.

What do the British say about hindsight @BritCard? :)

I don't think he'd shown enough. Does anybody else? Two slightly above average seasons. 7-8 great games. Then garbage down the stretch and one of the worst playoff performances of all time doesn't scream "extend me now".
 
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I agree with this. Michael already has doubts about Murray, but the results to date had been nearly unassailable. Now, if Kyler struggles under a new regime, it’ll become a Kyler problem.

Jay Cutler got three head coaches to play under, but one of them was Lovie Smith. Kyler won’t get as many chances.
He has so much money tied up in Kyler that I think he will go the same route with Cutler and keep throwing different coaches at him. Not sure why you think Kyler won’t get as many chances. As others have pointed out, MB’s not nearly as rich as the Waltons or Jerry Jones of the world.

Plus, Kyler has shown he has a lot of talent. Unless someone with Payton’s credentials tells MB that Kyler will never work out, I absolutely think MB keeps trying with Kyler.
 

kerouac9

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He has so much money tied up in Kyler that I think he will go the same route with Cutler and keep throwing different coaches at him. Not sure why you think Kyler won’t get as many chances. As others have pointed out, MB’s not nearly as rich as the Waltons or Jerry Jones of the world.

Plus, Kyler has shown he has a lot of talent. Unless someone with Payton’s credentials tells MB that Kyler will never work out, I absolutely think MB keeps trying with Kyler.
Partly because there's an out in Kyler's contract. Lovie Smith was a better coach than people remember. Cutler lead Chicago to the NFC Championship game in his second season in Chicago and those teams didn't have a losing record under Smith+Cutler after 2009. Lovie smith was fired after a 10-5 season, which seems bananas.

If Kyler embraced the franchise and the city embraced Kyler as much as Chicago did, it'd be different. If he's still commuting in from Dallas every season and indifferent to being the face of the franchise, it will be extremely easy to get rid of a guy who can't do anything in the playoffs and you have to surround with expensive talent.
 

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Partly because there's an out in Kyler's contract. Lovie Smith was a better coach than people remember. Cutler lead Chicago to the NFC Championship game in his second season in Chicago and those teams didn't have a losing record under Smith+Cutler after 2009. Lovie smith was fired after a 10-5 season, which seems bananas.

If Kyler embraced the franchise and the city embraced Kyler as much as Chicago did, it'd be different. If he's still commuting in from Dallas every season and indifferent to being the face of the franchise, it will be extremely easy to get rid of a guy who can't do anything in the playoffs and you have to surround with expensive talent.
This is pretty accurate. Kyler's indifference to being the face of the franchise is going to make it easier for the Cardinals to move off of him if he remains stagnant.
 

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Uh, it's not hindsight when posters were going nuts saying it would be stupid to do. Kyler's gun didn't have any bullets in it and he had certainly not shown enough on the field to earn jack squat. Too many injuries and too many utter collapses.

Are you serious? "hasn't done jack squat on the field" his first three years? before they gave him his extension? You're in Britcard territory with that take man.

1. NFL Rookie of the Year (2019)

2. Was twice named a team captain (2020-21) and was named to the Pro Bowl twice (2020-21) in his first three seasons.

3. Became the first QB in franchise history to be named to the Pro Bowl twice in his first three seasons and joined Patrick Mahomes, Aaron Rodgers and Russell Wilson as the only NFL QBs named to the Pro Bowl each of the last two seasons (2020-21).

4. Became the first player in NFL history with 70+ passing TDs and 20+ rushing TDs in his first three seasons.

5. His 66.86 completion percentage is the best in NFL history in a player's first three seasons (min. 1,000 pass attempts). His 1,057 completions are the second-most in NFL history in a player's first three seasons behind only Andrew Luck (1,062).

6. Completed 70+ percent of his pass attempts in seven games in 2021, giving him an NFL record 17 games with a 70+ completion percentage in his first three seasons.

7. Only player in NFL history with 3,500+ passing yards and 400+ rushing in each of his first three seasons. Joined Cam Newton (2011-13) as the only players in NFL history with 11,000+ passing yards and 1,500+ rushing yards in his first three seasons.

8. Became the fourth-youngest player in NFL history (24 years, 120 days) to reach 10,000 career passing yards.
Named to his second consecutive Pro Bowl in 2021 after completing 333-of-481 pass attempts (69.2%) for 3,787 yards, 24 TDs, 10 INTs and a 100.6 passer rating. He also rushed for 423 yards and five TDs.

9. His 69.3 completion percentage in 2021 established a franchise single-season record and ranked second in the NFL. His 100.6 pass rating was the second-highest single-season total in franchise history (Carson Palmer, 104.5 in 2015) and ranked eighth in the NFL last season.

9. Tied Kurt Warner (5 in 2009) for the most games with a passer rating of 120.0+ in a single season in 2021. In franchise history, only Neil Lomax (10 in 108 games) has more such outings in a career than Murray has in his first 46 career games (9).

10. Has been named NFC "Offensive Player of the Week" five times, tying Kurt Warner for the most in franchise history. In 2020 became the first player in team history to earn the honor three times in a single season.

11. Owns the franchise career record for rushing TDs by a QB (20). Established a single-season franchise record for rushing TDs (11) and rushing yards (819) by a QB in 2020.

12. In 2020, set an NFL record for the most games (9) with a passing and rushing TD in a single season and became the first player in NFL history with both a passing and rushing TD in five consecutive games (Games 5-9). Has 13 such performances in 46 career games, surpassing Jim Hart (11 in 199 games) for the most in franchise history.

13. His five games with 3+ pass TDs and 1+ rush TDs are the most in NFL history in a player's first three seasons.

14. Joins Peyton Manning (2) and Aaron Rodgers (2) as the only players in NFL history with multiple games of 400+ passing yards, 3+ passing TDs and 1+ rushing TD.

15. Received the 2020 Bridgestone Clutch Performance Play of the Year award and the "Best Play" award at the 2021 ESPYS for the "Hail Murray," a 43-yard game-winning TD pass to DeAndre Hopkins with just 0:02 remaining in regulation against the Bills.

16. In Week 7 of the 2020 season vs. Seattle, became the first player in NFL history to throw for 350+ yards and 3+ TDs while also rushing for 50+ yards and a TD in a single game.

Sigh... But he played bad in the playoff game right Stout?
 
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Crimson Warrior

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I don't think he'd shown enough. Does anybody else? Two slightly above average seasons. 7-8 great games. Then garbage down the stretch and one of the worst playoff performances of all time doesn't scream "extend me now".

How about the only player in NFL history with 3500+ yards passing 400+ yards rushing in each of his first three seasons? What does that say buddy?
 

Cardsfaninlouky

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Are you serious? "hasn't done jack squat on the field" his first three years? before they game him his extension? You're in Britcard territory with that take man.

1. NFL Rookie of the Year (2019)

2. Was twice named a team captain (2020-21) and was named to the Pro Bowl twice (2020-21) in his first three seasons.

3. Became the first QB in franchise history to be named to the Pro Bowl twice in his first three seasons and joined Patrick Mahomes, Aaron Rodgers and Russell Wilson as the only NFL QBs named to the Pro Bowl each of the last two seasons (2020-21).

4. Became the first player in NFL history with 70+ passing TDs and 20+ rushing TDs in his first three seasons.

5. His 66.86 completion percentage is the best in NFL history in a player's first three seasons (min. 1,000 pass attempts). His 1,057 completions are the second-most in NFL history in a player's first three seasons behind only Andrew Luck (1,062).

6. Completed 70+ percent of his pass attempts in seven games in 2021, giving him an NFL record 17 games with a 70+ completion percentage in his first three seasons.

7. Only player in NFL history with 3,500+ passing yards and 400+ rushing in each of his first three seasons. Joined Cam Newton (2011-13) as the only players in NFL history with 11,000+ passing yards and 1,500+ rushing yards in his first three seasons.

8. Became the fourth-youngest player in NFL history (24 years, 120 days) to reach 10,000 career passing yards.
Named to his second consecutive Pro Bowl in 2021 after completing 333-of-481 pass attempts (69.2%) for 3,787 yards, 24 TDs, 10 INTs and a 100.6 passer rating. He also rushed for 423 yards and five TDs.

9. His 69.3 completion percentage in 2021 established a franchise single-season record and ranked second in the NFL. His 100.6 pass rating was the second-highest single-season total in franchise history (Carson Palmer, 104.5 in 2015) and ranked eighth in the NFL last season.

9. Tied Kurt Warner (5 in 2009) for the most games with a passer rating of 120.0+ in a single season in 2021. In franchise history, only Neil Lomax (10 in 108 games) has more such outings in a career than Murray has in his first 46 career games (9).

10. Has been named NFC "Offensive Player of the Week" five times, tying Kurt Warner for the most in franchise history. In 2020 became the first player in team history to earn the honor three times in a single season.

11. Owns the franchise career record for rushing TDs by a QB (20). Established a single-season franchise record for rushing TDs (11) and rushing yards (819) by a QB in 2020.

12. In 2020, set an NFL record for the most games (9) with a passing and rushing TD in a single season and became the first player in NFL history with both a passing and rushing TD in five consecutive games (Games 5-9). Has 13 such performances in 46 career games, surpassing Jim Hart (11 in 199 games) for the most in franchise history.

13. His five games with 3+ pass TDs and 1+ rush TDs are the most in NFL history in a player's first three seasons.

14. Joins Peyton Manning (2) and Aaron Rodgers (2) as the only players in NFL history with multiple games of 400+ passing yards, 3+ passing TDs and 1+ rushing TD.

15. Received the 2020 Bridgestone Clutch Performance Play of the Year award and the "Best Play" award at the 2021 ESPYS for the "Hail Murray," a 43-yard game-winning TD pass to DeAndre Hopkins with just 0:02 remaining in regulation against the Bills.

16. In Week 7 of the 2020 season vs. Seattle, became the first player in NFL history to throw for 350+ yards and 3+ TDs while also rushing for 50+ yards and a TD in a single game.

Sigh... But he played bad in the playoff game right Stout?
Ehh, I think I'm gonna need a few more stats to be certain you're right lol.
 

kerouac9

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Are you serious? "hasn't done jack squat on the field" his first three years? before they game him his extension? You're in Britcard territory with that take man.

1. NFL Rookie of the Year (2019)

2. Was twice named a team captain (2020-21) and was named to the Pro Bowl twice (2020-21) in his first three seasons.

3. Became the first QB in franchise history to be named to the Pro Bowl twice in his first three seasons and joined Patrick Mahomes, Aaron Rodgers and Russell Wilson as the only NFL QBs named to the Pro Bowl each of the last two seasons (2020-21).

4. Became the first player in NFL history with 70+ passing TDs and 20+ rushing TDs in his first three seasons.

5. His 66.86 completion percentage is the best in NFL history in a player's first three seasons (min. 1,000 pass attempts). His 1,057 completions are the second-most in NFL history in a player's first three seasons behind only Andrew Luck (1,062).

6. Completed 70+ percent of his pass attempts in seven games in 2021, giving him an NFL record 17 games with a 70+ completion percentage in his first three seasons.

7. Only player in NFL history with 3,500+ passing yards and 400+ rushing in each of his first three seasons. Joined Cam Newton (2011-13) as the only players in NFL history with 11,000+ passing yards and 1,500+ rushing yards in his first three seasons.

8. Became the fourth-youngest player in NFL history (24 years, 120 days) to reach 10,000 career passing yards.
Named to his second consecutive Pro Bowl in 2021 after completing 333-of-481 pass attempts (69.2%) for 3,787 yards, 24 TDs, 10 INTs and a 100.6 passer rating. He also rushed for 423 yards and five TDs.

9. His 69.3 completion percentage in 2021 established a franchise single-season record and ranked second in the NFL. His 100.6 pass rating was the second-highest single-season total in franchise history (Carson Palmer, 104.5 in 2015) and ranked eighth in the NFL last season.

9. Tied Kurt Warner (5 in 2009) for the most games with a passer rating of 120.0+ in a single season in 2021. In franchise history, only Neil Lomax (10 in 108 games) has more such outings in a career than Murray has in his first 46 career games (9).

10. Has been named NFC "Offensive Player of the Week" five times, tying Kurt Warner for the most in franchise history. In 2020 became the first player in team history to earn the honor three times in a single season.

11. Owns the franchise career record for rushing TDs by a QB (20). Established a single-season franchise record for rushing TDs (11) and rushing yards (819) by a QB in 2020.

12. In 2020, set an NFL record for the most games (9) with a passing and rushing TD in a single season and became the first player in NFL history with both a passing and rushing TD in five consecutive games (Games 5-9). Has 13 such performances in 46 career games, surpassing Jim Hart (11 in 199 games) for the most in franchise history.

13. His five games with 3+ pass TDs and 1+ rush TDs are the most in NFL history in a player's first three seasons.

14. Joins Peyton Manning (2) and Aaron Rodgers (2) as the only players in NFL history with multiple games of 400+ passing yards, 3+ passing TDs and 1+ rushing TD.

15. Received the 2020 Bridgestone Clutch Performance Play of the Year award and the "Best Play" award at the 2021 ESPYS for the "Hail Murray," a 43-yard game-winning TD pass to DeAndre Hopkins with just 0:02 remaining in regulation against the Bills.

16. In Week 7 of the 2020 season vs. Seattle, became the first player in NFL history to throw for 350+ yards and 3+ TDs while also rushing for 50+ yards and a TD in a single game.

Sigh... But he played bad in the playoff game right Stout?
How many 4000+ yard passing seasons does he have?

Imagine copy and pasting Kyler’s career highlights comparing him to Aaron Rodgers and Patrick Mahomes and feeling like you owned the haters.

Imagine.
 

BritCard

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How many 4000+ yard passing seasons does he have?

Imagine copy and pasting Kyler’s career highlights comparing him to Aaron Rodgers and Patrick Mahomes and feeling like you owned the haters.

Imagine.

And 4000 now is not unusual. It's kinda the bare minimum for a top 10 QB.

Never topped 4k. Never topped 26 passing TD's. Both low bars in the modern NFL.

The problem with the @Crimson Warrior list is that it's largely single game stats. Well yeah, Kyler blows hot and cold. He can be awesome one game then trash the next. Or records that combine running where the pool is very shallow. "Most rushing and passing yards through X games" is not a stat I care about. There are probably 5-10 QB's all time even in that hunt. I don't care if he's the best of a small pool of mobile QB's.

When Kyler is consistently throwing 4k a year with 30 passing TD's people can argue he's arrived.
 

Stout

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Are you serious? "hasn't done jack squat on the field" his first three years? before they gave him his extension? You're in Britcard territory with that take man.

1. NFL Rookie of the Year (2019)

2. Was twice named a team captain (2020-21) and was named to the Pro Bowl twice (2020-21) in his first three seasons.

3. Became the first QB in franchise history to be named to the Pro Bowl twice in his first three seasons and joined Patrick Mahomes, Aaron Rodgers and Russell Wilson as the only NFL QBs named to the Pro Bowl each of the last two seasons (2020-21).

4. Became the first player in NFL history with 70+ passing TDs and 20+ rushing TDs in his first three seasons.

5. His 66.86 completion percentage is the best in NFL history in a player's first three seasons (min. 1,000 pass attempts). His 1,057 completions are the second-most in NFL history in a player's first three seasons behind only Andrew Luck (1,062).

6. Completed 70+ percent of his pass attempts in seven games in 2021, giving him an NFL record 17 games with a 70+ completion percentage in his first three seasons.

7. Only player in NFL history with 3,500+ passing yards and 400+ rushing in each of his first three seasons. Joined Cam Newton (2011-13) as the only players in NFL history with 11,000+ passing yards and 1,500+ rushing yards in his first three seasons.

8. Became the fourth-youngest player in NFL history (24 years, 120 days) to reach 10,000 career passing yards.
Named to his second consecutive Pro Bowl in 2021 after completing 333-of-481 pass attempts (69.2%) for 3,787 yards, 24 TDs, 10 INTs and a 100.6 passer rating. He also rushed for 423 yards and five TDs.

9. His 69.3 completion percentage in 2021 established a franchise single-season record and ranked second in the NFL. His 100.6 pass rating was the second-highest single-season total in franchise history (Carson Palmer, 104.5 in 2015) and ranked eighth in the NFL last season.

9. Tied Kurt Warner (5 in 2009) for the most games with a passer rating of 120.0+ in a single season in 2021. In franchise history, only Neil Lomax (10 in 108 games) has more such outings in a career than Murray has in his first 46 career games (9).

10. Has been named NFC "Offensive Player of the Week" five times, tying Kurt Warner for the most in franchise history. In 2020 became the first player in team history to earn the honor three times in a single season.

11. Owns the franchise career record for rushing TDs by a QB (20). Established a single-season franchise record for rushing TDs (11) and rushing yards (819) by a QB in 2020.

12. In 2020, set an NFL record for the most games (9) with a passing and rushing TD in a single season and became the first player in NFL history with both a passing and rushing TD in five consecutive games (Games 5-9). Has 13 such performances in 46 career games, surpassing Jim Hart (11 in 199 games) for the most in franchise history.

13. His five games with 3+ pass TDs and 1+ rush TDs are the most in NFL history in a player's first three seasons.

14. Joins Peyton Manning (2) and Aaron Rodgers (2) as the only players in NFL history with multiple games of 400+ passing yards, 3+ passing TDs and 1+ rushing TD.

15. Received the 2020 Bridgestone Clutch Performance Play of the Year award and the "Best Play" award at the 2021 ESPYS for the "Hail Murray," a 43-yard game-winning TD pass to DeAndre Hopkins with just 0:02 remaining in regulation against the Bills.

16. In Week 7 of the 2020 season vs. Seattle, became the first player in NFL history to throw for 350+ yards and 3+ TDs while also rushing for 50+ yards and a TD in a single game.

Sigh... But he played bad in the playoff game right Stout?
Misquote much? I said he hadn't earned jack squat, as far as a ginormous extension. And the shiny new big contract has clearly proven to be unearned. Unless you're saying the contract was still a good idea?
 

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Do I think he's a good coach? Sure. Overhyped, but a solid coach. But I don't care about that.

The reason I want Payton is it will prevent the "kick the can down the road" firings and hirings because of Kyler if they go with someone else as HC.

If anyone other than Payton fails with Kyler, chances are a new OC, or HC, etc.... will be brought in to adjust to Kyler and "unlock his potential".

I think Payton can get Kyler to live up to his potential.

However, if Payton goes up to MB after year 1 or year 2 and says "this kid doesn't want to put the work in" or "he just doesn't have it", then MB will be more likely to cut K1 loose and start from scratch.

The biggest issue this team has is not knowing if Kyler is the guy. I think MB would only act on Payton's assessment with that much $ involved. Otherwise, he'll keep kicking the can down the road trying to find someone that can reach K1.
And don't forget that there will be a couple of fewer draft picks to screw up and complain about.

"Fewer is Better"
 

Crimson Warrior

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Misquote much? I said he hadn't earned jack squat, as far as a ginormous extension. And the shiny new big contract has clearly proven to be unearned. Unless you're saying the contract was still a good idea?

okay sorry for misquoting you. But if you look at all of those accolades and accomplishments, are you going to stick with "he hadn't earned jack squat" after his first three years? Could we at least agree that there was a reasonable case for giving him the extension? :)

At this moment in time, the decision looks dubious, but doubt K1 at your own peril Stout.
 

Stout

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okay sorry for misquoting you. But if you look at all of those accolades and accomplishments, are you going to stick with "he hadn't earned jack squat" after his first three years? Could we at least agree that there was a reasonable case for giving him the extension? :)

At this moment in time, the decision looks dubious, but doubt K1 at your own peril Stout.
I mean, I'd have extended him for 20 mill or so, sure. I guess that's more than "jack squat," but I bet he would've considered it jack squat lol

No, I don't think any of those accomplishments merited him getting top QB money. Like, not at all. Because you have to balance those accomplishments with lack of accomplishments. He melts down to end seasons, he melted down entirely for the 2022 season, and he's been injured a lot. That doesn't even mention the playoff meltdown.

I was banging on the don't pay him drum in the offseason because there was literally no need, with him under team control for plenty of time. Plus, we did it way faster than most QBs get done. Why throw all that money at the kid when there were so many question marks following him around? Well, we see pretty clearly why we shouldn't have done it now.

But all that aside, I do appreciate your optimism, Crimson. You are a big KM fan but you are also a realist about him. You and I can disagree in a friendly fashion :thumbup:
 

daves

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In what scenario do you see MB saying “it’s not the coach, it’s Kyler”?
In addition to what others have said, the study clause is evidence that Bidwill is already skeptical of Murray. Plus, Keim and Kingsbury sold Bidwill on drafting Murray in the first place, and they're already gone. I think after two years with a new coach if Murray hasn't started showing massive gains in maturity and reaching his huge potential, Bidwill would be willing to send him packing.

...dave
 

Chopper0080

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okay sorry for misquoting you. But if you look at all of those accolades and accomplishments, are you going to stick with "he hadn't earned jack squat" after his first three years? Could we at least agree that there was a reasonable case for giving him the extension? :)

At this moment in time, the decision looks dubious, but doubt K1 at your own peril Stout.
Here is the problem. Kyler was DEMANDING an extension a year earlier than normal. This essentially takes away one of the most valuable items in sports, a year of a QB on a cost controlled deal. He did this by comparing himself to a small sample of other QBs whose post-season production and success was in a different stratosphere than Kyler's.

Let's not try and make Kyler the vicim in this. He played his cards to try and secure the bag as soon as possible and was successful. good for him on that. However, now he reaps what he has sowed by negotiating on the backs of Mahomes and Allen (the few QBs who received an extension a year earlier than normal).
 

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How about the only player in NFL history with 3500+ yards passing 400+ yards rushing in each of his first three seasons? What does that say buddy?
For some reason he hasn't been the same since returning from injury over a year ago. He had some brief flashes of the old Kyler(Dallas game, Raiders) but the vast majority of his performance over a season+ has ranged from barely okay to downright dismal.

Perhaps a significant factor in his decline is from the guy who just purchased a one way ticket to Thailand but that is kind of unknown until we see Kyler in a new regime.

Plus, Kyler is now unfortunately dealing with a significant injury.
 

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Hearing Payton talk, you'd swear HE was the one who'll be conducting interviews with these teams. A lot of ego with this man, but I'd be lying if I said I wouldn't be thrilled with him choosing us. (Which is not happening btw)
 

slanidrac16

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Here is the problem. Kyler was DEMANDING an extension a year earlier than normal. This essentially takes away one of the most valuable items in sports, a year of a QB on a cost controlled deal. He did this by comparing himself to a small sample of other QBs whose post-season production and success was in a different stratosphere than Kyler's.

Let's not try and make Kyler the vicim in this. He played his cards to try and secure the bag as soon as possible and was successful. good for him on that. However, now he reaps what he has sowed by negotiating on the backs of Mahomes and Allen (the few QBs who received an extension a year earlier than normal).
Correct. And if doesn’t live up to the billing and do his part, both on and off the field, the media and fans will be on him like flys on poop.
That’s just reality.
 

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I mean, I'd have extended him for 20 mill or so, sure. I guess that's more than "jack squat," but I bet he would've considered it jack squat lol

No, I don't think any of those accomplishments merited him getting top QB money. Like, not at all. Because you have to balance those accomplishments with lack of accomplishments. He melts down to end seasons, he melted down entirely for the 2022 season, and he's been injured a lot. That doesn't even mention the playoff meltdown.

I was banging on the don't pay him drum in the offseason because there was literally no need, with him under team control for plenty of time. Plus, we did it way faster than most QBs get done. Why throw all that money at the kid when there were so many question marks following him around? Well, we see pretty clearly why we shouldn't have done it now.

But all that aside, I do appreciate your optimism, Crimson. You are a big KM fan but you are also a realist about him. You and I can disagree in a friendly fashion :thumbup:

And now the terrible knee injury, casting further doubt on his ultimate success. Even the most fanatical of Murray supporters are concerned, even if they don't say so publicly.

Murray is at a crossroads in his life and his professional career and I think we'll know pretty soon which path he's chosen. For the sake of our Cardinals, I hope he does what it takes to get back to peak form. But money sometimes spoils boys. I hope that's not the case with him.

And with all that aside, it is really is nice to debate with someone who has the intelligence and wisdom to see that not all issues are black and white, and the grace to say so publicly. Have a great rest of the day Stout!
 
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