The Draft and Offseason

[traveler]

were the worst ever. The blather on this site about the 1 and 2 draft choices who will now be starters was unbelievable. The offensive line, which was gelling the second half of the season is now gone. The bright spot of Lechey will not play the the horrible guard is now back there from right tackle. Clancy, the run stopper is gone. There still is no speed receiver and Shipp is our answer if James goes south. This is a rebuilding year again folks no matter how you paint it. Tell me how I'm wrong.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

were the worst ever. The blather on this site about the 1 and 2 draft choices who will now be starters was unbelievable. The offensive line, which was gelling the second half of the season is now gone. The bright spot of Lechey will not play the the horrible guard is now back there from right tackle. Clancy, the run stopper is gone. There still is no speed receiver and Shipp is our answer if James goes south. This is a rebuilding year again folks no matter how you paint it. Tell me how I'm wrong.

Give us, in detail, why this off season and draft were the worse ever....

(Ever, by the way... means in Cards history)

 

[SuperSpck]

The bright spot of Lechey will not play the the horrible guard is now back there from right tackle.

I once held the role of 'orrible guard in a school play. He was back from his mothers, not right tackle. His motivation: Beans!

 

[JeffGollin]

The offensive line, which was gelling the second half of the season is now gone. The bright spot of Lechey will not play the the horrible guard is now back there from right tackle. Clancy, the run stopper is gone. There still is no speed receiver and Shipp is our answer if James goes south. This is a rebuilding year again folks no matter how you paint it. Tell me how I'm wrong.

1. You call high ratings of Levi Brown and Alan Branch "blather" with no substantiation. This is just as wrong-headed as annointing them Pro Bowlers before they play a down. What you can say is that "on paper", the likelihood that they'll be good NFL players is higher than the likelihood that they won't.

2. The O-line jello at best was luke-warm.

3. Your comment on Lechey and right tackle is undecypherable.

4. Clancy wasn't a bad at stopping the run but to labeling him "the run stopper" is a bit of a reach. Whisenhunt wanted more beef in the middle. Both Watson and Branch were significantly bigger than Clancy.

5. Breaston is a speed receiver. McCoy (now fully recovered) can bring it. So can Spurlock. I think our #4 or #5 burner will emerge from training camp.

6. You forget how good Shipp was when he was healthy and the rare times when holes were opened up for him. Although I think Edge is better in many ways, I think Marcel - given half-decent blocking - would be a consistent 1,000+ yard gainer as a starter.

7. This is not a rebuilding year. True, the team has had to absorb new terminology, schemes etc., but I believe the talent is in place and to give the players any opportunity use the "transition year" excuse as a crutch to slack off and not push for a playoff spot would be deadly.

That's why I think you are wrong.

 

[Goober Man]

were the worst ever. The blather on this site about the 1 and 2 draft choices who will now be starters was unbelievable. The offensive line, which was gelling the second half of the season is now gone. The bright spot of Lechey will not play the the horrible guard is now back there from right tackle. Clancy, the run stopper is gone. There still is no speed receiver and Shipp is our answer if James goes south. This is a rebuilding year again folks no matter how you paint it. Tell me how I'm wrong.

you have no clue what your talking about

 

[Duckjake]

This is not a rebuilding year. True, the team has had to absorb new terminology, schemes etc., but I believe the talent is in place and to give the players any opportunity use the "transition year" excuse as a crutch to slack off and not push for a playoff spot would be deadly.

Anytime you make a major overhaul to your offensive line you are in a rebuilding year no matter how bad that offensive line was. That applies at any level of football. The Cards have been rebuilding their offensive line every year since 1990 and that's one major reason they have struggled that entire time.

 

[seesred]

IMO and many other so called experts our draft was very strong. We didn't have many picks, but what we did with them was super. Moving up to get a first round talent in the second round was solid, Brown was a need pick and should be a very good player.

Clancy is a good guy that is not suited for our direction that we are going in up front. The 3-4, multple set defense will move from the low 20's in ranking to mid to upper in rankings this year.

IMO Marcel is a great second back and I also think, that this might be JJ's breakout year should he gets some snaps.

I admit I drink kool-aid, but it appears to me that your comments are a direct link to drinknig something else! Wait till after camp to see if anything you have written comes to pass, hey it might, NOT.

GBR
40

 

[Russ Smith]

I don't get why people keep saying this might be JJ Arrington's breakout season? Wasn't he running 3rd team in OTA's and weren't we being told he was gettnig almost no reps at RB and was CLEARLY behind Shipp on the depth chart?

So are we to assume that was all a smoke screen, or an attempt to motivate JJ? Afterall we're being told that Brown and Clancy were cut because the coaches hadn't planned to play them, doesn't their use of JJ in OTA suggest they don't plan to play him either?

note, I'd love to see him breakout, I still like the kid, but I don't get the impression he's about to do so based on what has happened so far under Whiz.

 

[kerouac9]

I have problems with both traveler's post and JeffGollin's, but I"ll start with this one...

were the worst ever. The blather on this site about the 1 and 2 draft choices who will now be starters was unbelievable. The offensive line, which was gelling the second half of the season is now gone. The bright spot of Lechey will not play the the horrible guard is now back there from right tackle. Clancy, the run stopper is gone. There still is no speed receiver and Shipp is our answer if James goes south. This is a rebuilding year again folks no matter how you paint it. Tell me how I'm wrong.

All right, the 2007 draft and offseason isn't even the worst in recent memory, to say nothing of "worst ever." The 2003 offseason was the worst in recent memory, including the free agent acquisition of last-legs Emmitt Smith, James Darling, Cameron Spikes, Jeff Blake, and massively overpaying for a moderately talented Dexter Jackson. We followed that up by the worst trade down in recent memory for two guys who may end 2007's training camp as first alternates on the depth chart (Four years later!) and the privilege of trading halfway back into the second round. And we let two of our 5 most talented players leave in free agency.

It is a rebuilding year. But if rebuilding is inevitable, why not just sit back and enjoy it?

 

[ajcardfan]

No, the 1999 offseason was by far the worst ever. Jamir Miller and Lomas Brown walked with nothing in return. Larry Centers was cut. There was the horrible car wreck involving three linemen on their way to camp, in which Ernest Dye lost his arm. There was the Chris Gedney fiasco. LJ Shelton was drafted and had maybe the nastiest of all draft holdouts since the Cardinals have been in Arizona. By the time the season started, the Cards had screwed away almost all of the good will their '98 playoff run had brought them.

Just look at that draft:

1a. 8 David Boston WR Ohio State
1b. 21 L.J. Shelton T Eastern Michigan
2. 51 Johnny Rutledge LB Florida
3. 83 Thomas Burke DE Wisconsin
4. 116 Joel Makovicka FB Nebraska
5a. 155 Paris Johnson S Miami (Ohio)
5b. 168 Yusuf Scott G Arizona
6a. 190 Coby Rhinehart CB Southern Methodist
6b. 202 Melvin Bradley LB Arkansas
6c. 206 Dennis McKinley FB Mississippi State
7. 239 Chris Greisen QB Northwest Missouri State

No, this offseason has a LONG way to go before it gets THAT bad.

 

[kerouac9]

On the other side of the coin is Jeff's post, which carries as much unsubstantiated "information" as traveler's does, only it's bathed in kool-aid...

2. The O-line jello at best was luke-warm.

The O-line generated average gains of well over 4.0 YPC over the last two months of the season--after Wells was moved from LG and Ross was moved out of the starting lineup altogether. That average over the last 2 months of the season was over what the Steelers' offense averaged in their Super Bowl season.

4. Clancy wasn't a bad at stopping the run but to labeling him "the run stopper" is a bit of a reach. Whisenhunt wanted more beef in the middle. Both Watson and Branch were significantly bigger than Clancy.

But there's no reason that Clancy couldn't have been retained for play at DE, where he's much more of the appropriate size and we know can handle 2-gap responsibilities. This isn't that huge a deal, but we're asking a lot of Antonio Smith, who has been merely average as a backup DE for the first three seasons of his career.

5. Breaston is a speed receiver. McCoy (now fully recovered) can bring it. So can Spurlock. I think our #4 or #5 burner will emerge from training camp.

Breaston isn't a receiver at all. At least, not at this point in his career. Things will be very bad indeed if he appears on the field with the regular offense at all this season. If you read Urban and Somer's blogs, you'll notice that the WR depth chart has been Q-Fitz-Johnson-Morey-Spurlock. Breaston will likely make the roster as a return specialist, but there's no question he's not ready to compete at WR. Since he's a 7th round pick, this isn't really that big a deal.

6. You forget how good Shipp was when he was healthy and the rare times when holes were opened up for him. Although I think Edge is better in many ways, I think Marcel - given half-decent blocking - would be a consistent 1,000+ yard gainer as a starter.

And you forget that Shipp was that "good" 5 years ago. He hasn't averaged over 3 yards per carry for four years, and his per-carry average has declined every season he's been playing RB. Even given half-decent blocking, Shipp wouldn't remain a starter long in the NFL as a "consistent 1000+ yard gainer." 23 backs gained 1000+ yards rushing in 2006. 16 gained 1100+ yards.

7. This is not a rebuilding year. True, the team has had to absorb new terminology, schemes etc., but I believe the talent is in place and to give the players any opportunity use the "transition year" excuse as a crutch to slack off and not push for a playoff spot would be deadly.

How can the talent be in place if we're replacing 5 starters on offense and 4 on defense? None of those players have played together yet. None of that is an excuse to let them off the hook for not competing, but it is a reason to emphasize the "cautious" part of "cautious optimism", at least entering the season.

I really look forward to you using the "K-bomb" excuse to dismiss all of these football arguments.

 

[BigRedRage]

Coby Rhinehart was cool, I sold him a sub once.

 

[football karma]

Anytime you make a major overhaul to your offensive line you are in a rebuilding year no matter how bad that offensive line was. That applies at any level of football. The Cards have been rebuilding their offensive line every year since 1990 and that's one major reason they have struggled that entire time.

DJ -- making wholesale changes in an offensive line doesnt necessarily "doom" at team:

2006 Jets changed at least three of five positions-- starting rookies D. Ferguson, N. Mangold (who replaced a very well regarded K Mawae) and, ta da-- Anthony Clement at RT.

2006 Saints-- J. Brown was moved to LT from RT. Three new starters in J. Evans, a rookie from Bloomsberg St, Jeff Faine ( replacing pro bowler LeCharles Bentley) and Matt Stinchcomb, who had a bust reputation prior to last year.

2006 Cowboys: three new starters: Kyle Kosier from the Lions (replacing pro-bowler LArry Allen), Gurode (replacing new Card Al Johnson) and Marc Columbo replacing Rob Petiti. In fairness, at least Columbo and Gurode were with the Cowboys the year prior.

2006 Eagles: Two new starters -- Herremans at RG (Herremans was a 4th rd pick in 05) , Jamaal Jackson at C (UDFA from 04) -- both had not started prior to 2006.

By my quick perusal -- four playoff teams all went into the season with changes along the offensive line (and in many cases, the guys there were inserting were question marks AND were replacing accomplished players) -- and somehow, they made it work.

 

[kerouac9]

Stinchcomb had been a Saint for two years before he took over the starting role at RT. Gurode had been a Cowboy for 4 years and started over 45 games before he took Johnson's job for good. Herreman had started 4 games the prior year for the Eagles due to injury, and Jackson had started 8 games. None of these guys were suddenly inserted into the starting lineup before the coaching staffs really knew what they had.

Kosier was a highly-touted free agent when he was signed by the Cowboys.

Your quick perusal doesn't really stand up to greater scrutiny.

 

[football karma]

Stinchcomb had been a Saint for two years before he took over the starting role at RT. Gurode had been a Cowboy for 4 years and started over 45 games before he took Johnson's job for good. Herreman had started 4 games the prior year for the Eagles due to injury, and Jackson had started 8 games. None of these guys were suddenly inserted into the starting lineup before the coaching staffs really knew what they had.

Kosier was a highly-touted free agent when he was signed by the Cowboys.

Your quick perusal doesn't really stand up to greater scrutiny.

Stinchcomb was considered a big dissapointment prior to '06 -- he had been a 2nd round pick that couldnt get into lineup (injuries to his shoulder IIRC), and had limited game experience (all of 10 games in three years) going into '06. The Saints ended up with one guy playing in the same position on the o-line that he did the year prior.

I wouldnt call Kosier "highly touted" -- he was a guy that when the Cards were mentioned to be interested in him -- everyone here yawned. His rep was that of a very middle of the road guard. It doesnt change the fact that he was new to Dallas that year. The Cowboys ended up with one guy playing in the same position as he did the year prior.

In Philly, there is no question that of all the teams with changes, theirs probably had the most continuity. While the coaching staff may have known what they had, from an outsiders perspective (which is what we all are), both of those guys were unknowns with limited starting experience and not much of a pedigree. Its the reason Eagle fans were hoping for Lecharles Bentley in the 06 offseason.

 

[joeshmo]

I don't get why people keep saying this might be JJ Arrington's breakout season? Wasn't he running 3rd team in OTA's and weren't we being told he was gettnig almost no reps at RB and was CLEARLY behind Shipp on the depth chart?

So are we to assume that was all a smoke screen, or an attempt to motivate JJ? Afterall we're being told that Brown and Clancy were cut because the coaches hadn't planned to play them, doesn't their use of JJ in OTA suggest they don't plan to play him either?

note, I'd love to see him breakout, I still like the kid, but I don't get the impression he's about to do so based on what has happened so far under Whiz.

I think it was in one or both of the Sommers or Urban Blogs. During 2 minute drills during the camps so far JJ has been the featured RB. He has also got a lot of time as 3rd down back.

Maybe breakout is the wrong word people are using. But he looks like he will be featured by Wiz in certian situations and will have a greater role this year then last.

 

[kerouac9]

Stinchcomb was considered a big dissapointment prior to '06 -- he had been a 2nd round pick that couldnt get into lineup (injuries to his shoulder IIRC), and had limited game experience (all of 10 games in three years) going into '06. The Saints ended up with one guy playing in the same position on the o-line that he did the year prior.

I wouldnt call Kosier "highly touted" -- he was a guy that when the Cards were mentioned to be interested in him -- everyone here yawned. His rep was that of a very middle of the road guard. It doesnt change the fact that he was new to Dallas that year. The Cowboys ended up with one guy playing in the same position as he did the year prior.

In Philly, there is no question that of all the teams with changes, theirs probably had the most continuity. While the coaching staff may have known what they had, from an outsiders perspective (which is what we all are), both of those guys were unknowns with limited starting experience and not much of a pedigree. Its the reason Eagle fans were hoping for Lecharles Bentley in the 06 offseason.

I'm just not seeing the close parallels. Yes, the Saints worked with a revised OL and a new coaching staff, but they also played an absurdly weak schedule, as did the NY Jets. Those teams weren't as good as they appeared to be. That got shown in the postseason, and it will be even more apparent this year, when they both end 7-9 or worse.

What really doesn't have any relevance to the Cards' situation are the Cowboys and the Eagles. Both had veteran, established coaching staffs and had great familiarity with their personnel. Maybe 4 of 5 starters in Dallas were at new positions, but only one player was new. I'd submit that you can trade one player out per season on OL and be fine. New England seems to do it every season, and they work out great. The continuity of coaching staff and players make it work.

But here in Arizona you're talking about 3 new players, 4 new positions, and 1 new scheme. I'll take as a given that the NFC West is going to be about as mediocre as it was last season (I personally think that San Fran isn't going to be that improved and that the Rams are still a year or two away on defense), but we're playing an NFC South where the Panthers could be back on track (8-8 last season while losing 4 games decided by 7 points or less), as well as a Bucs team where WR and QB should be much more settled. They're also playing an AFC North division where I think there are 2 Super Bowl contenders in Baltimore and Cincy and one feisty squad in Pittsburgh that is going to be looking to stick it to their old coach.

The Cards last season were really a tragedy. They ought to have gone 3-1 against a horrible NFC North and 2-2 against a diminished AFC West division. Then they could have split their division games (3-3) and their at-large games (1-1) and maybe made the playoffs. Going even 4-2 in division would have put them in the game.

That 2006 squad went in the tank after the tough loss to St. Louis at home, and never recovered. I think that that is the biggest reason to mostly dismantle this team. That 8-game losing streak was totally unacceptable and really showed a lack of pride by a number of players on this roster. No one here knows who those individuals are, but we can only hope that we got rid of most of them.

 

[Russ Smith]

I think it was in one or both of the Sommers or Urban Blogs. During 2 minute drills during the camps so far JJ has been the featured RB. He has also got a lot of time as 3rd down back.

Maybe breakout is the wrong word people are using. But he looks like he will be featured by Wiz in certian situations and will have a greater role this year then last.

I hope he's finally improved catching the ball. Drove me nuts the last 2 years he could have been on the field so much more if he could just catch the ball without having to turn and face the QB.

 

[football karma]

Let me be clear --

I am not saying because NYJ and NO did it, the Cards will do it as well.

My point is that making changes along the offensive line doesnt necessarily doom a team to a 4-12 season.

One other thing about all the teams I mentioned is that while they made the playoffs, they didnt do much (NO had the benefit of playing Philly). The teams that went far in the playoffs all had lines with far more continuity.

No question that the Jets and NO benefitted from an easy schedule -- the Jets only had one "quality" win -- at NE (pretty high quality) -- NO had a couple decent ones -- at Dallas and at NYG.

At least at this point, the Cards theoretically have an easy 2007 schedule --
and I would gladly take a 10-6 and a playoff appearence, even if the schedule had something to do with it.

 

[traveler]

Goober or Crazy win as the most intelligent posts. Great insight and good research. Kerouac 9 good points throughout.

 

[Duckjake]

Let me be clear --

I am not saying because NYJ and NO did it, the Cards will do it as well.

My point is that making changes along the offensive line doesnt necessarily doom a team to a 4-12 season.

One other thing about all the teams I mentioned is that while they made the playoffs, they didnt do much (NO had the benefit of playing Philly). The teams that went far in the playoffs all had lines with far more continuity.

No question that the Jets and NO benefitted from an easy schedule -- the Jets only had one "quality" win -- at NE (pretty high quality) -- NO had a couple decent ones -- at Dallas and at NYG.

At least at this point, the Cards theoretically have an easy 2007 schedule --
and I would gladly take a 10-6 and a playoff appearence, even if the schedule had something to do with it.

I can see teams doing it occasionally but it is still a rebuilding year and they won't be terribly successful. I think of the teams you mentioned three were 10-6 and Dallas was 9-7.

Now the real key for success is to have some guy playing Center with 35-40 seasons in the NFL. The last 4 teams in the Superbowl had guys playing Center who were eligible for Social Security.

Kruetz-1996, Saturday-1998, Hartings-1999 and Tobeck-1993.

 

[SuperSpck]

Goober or Crazy win as the most intelligent posts. Great insight and good research. Kerouac 9 good points throughout.

 

[nurnay]

I think it was in one or both of the Sommers or Urban Blogs. During 2 minute drills during the camps so far JJ has been the featured RB. He has also got a lot of time as 3rd down back.

Maybe breakout is the wrong word people are using. But he looks like he will be featured by Wiz in certian situations and will have a greater role this year then last.

I really hope JJ turns the corner this season. A lot of us on this board were very happy when he fell to the Cards, and it would be great if he lived up to expectations.

I think in this offense, assuming Grimm works his magic, JJ will be a solid 3rd down & change of pace back.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

I don't know how anyone can complain about the draft yet. For one, none of the players has played a down so we have no idea what we got. Secondly, on paper it was a pretty good draft to get 3 probably starters(by season's end),a return guy that is sorely needed and a possible steal in round 7 that could become a very servicable TE.

The free agency has two sides to it. It wasn't a disaster as to who they brought in because the guys were generally at positions of need and almost all of them will be contributors. The disaster part is the way the front office structured the contracts to eat up the cap space. I can arguably say no team has ever done so little with so much cap room. Is is the worst off season ever? No way. K9 pointed out the off season that led to perhaps the worst talent ever assembled on an NFL roster during Mac's last year.

 

[kerouac9]

I don't know how anyone can complain about the draft yet. For one, none of the players has played a down so we have no idea what we got. Secondly, on paper it was a pretty good draft to get 3 probably starters(by season's end),a return guy that is sorely needed and a possible steal in round 7 that could become a very servicable TE.

I agree that it's too early to judge the draft. You could judge the way the draft was handled, and whom we could have taken, but it seems--at least to me--that that bridge has passed.

Didn't we get a bunch of starters from Denny's first draft? Dansby, Fitz, Step, Dockett. In Denny's second draft, we got three more starters (Rolle, Arrington, Brown) and a major contributor (Green). Those two teams were a combined 11-21.

In the 2003 draft, we had 6 players make it onto the final roster, and I think all of them had at least 1 start as rookies. I can agree that we may have a good rookie class, but if we do, it'll likely mean that we're going to suck again this season, since those rookies are going to make rookie mistakes.

In last year's Super Bowl, the Bears had 0 rookie starters. The Colts had 1 (I think Joseph Addai started...).