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He also struggled against a stacked front line in our Lakers matchups. IMO he was asked to do the impossible at times and unsuprisingly, he failed.
Suns Off-season Thread
- Thread starter GatorAZ
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how_sweet_it_is
Veteran
I don't know how I'm supposed to say Stoudemire was the better player with his great deficiencies. All he did very well was score.
But who to build the franchise around... Actually, in my opinion, the franchise wasn't built around either of these players. It was built around Steve Nash after 2004. (And from the departure of Jason Kidd until 2004, it wasn't particularly built around anyone.) So instead of considering who you would build the franchise around, try this: which forward was more valuable to Steve Nash's teams? Because Nash was the leader and focal point.
I say Marion was, because he did more: rebound very well, defend very well, and score. He scored less than Stoudemire but was no slouch. I see Marion as the defensive anchor of every Suns team he played for. He was indispensable.
Again, I acknowledge these things with discomfort, because I don't particularly like Shawn Marion's personality, for his failure to control his ego. (I can see this as another black mark against Mike D'Antoni: failing to get those two to ever cooperate and develop a good rapport.)
Western Font
ASFN Lifer
I thought Marion was undervalued (until I got tired of hearing him say it) and it’s probably still true—but if I were starting over with one or the other I would still take Amare in a heartbeat just to watch what he did do again.
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Easily. He was a DOMINANT offensive force. A mediocre rebounder. And an average to bad defender. Defense CAN get better/taught, but his kind of dominance on offense can’t be.
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I agree completely but Marion's personality unraveling didn't occur in a vaccuum. Various Sports guys (especially the fantasy/stats people) started calling him the most underrated player in the game and then came all the questions about whether he was valued properly.
The first time I heard it was on the NBA channel and the host, during a post game interview, specifically asked him if he felt disrespected - Marion mumbled no. But that opened the floodgates and for the next several months any time anyone put a mic in front of him, that question would be asked. Shawn didn't handle it well, neither did Dice when he went through almost the same thing with us several years earlier. Maybe a more astute organization figures out how to get ahead of that problem but ours never did.
And like HH said, Marion had the superior career, peak Amare was the superior player. In both cases, it's not all that close IMO but Shawn had good health and Stat had one injury after the other.
Odom was a tough cover for him. He was at his prime during that 00-11 playoffs. That was a taller laker team that we just didnt have he size to get boards and limit second shots.
Too bad Stat played for a coach who didnt value defense. He potentially could have developed that part of his game.
how_sweet_it_is
Veteran
Because the question of who the better player was can get bogged down by what constitutes "better," I'll stick with what you just said--Marion's better career--and also with saying Marion was more valuable to his Suns teams.
And because Marion's ability to do everything was more valuable than Stoudemire's scoring and...scoring, I am going to propose something. The ruthless trade that the Suns did not try to make (as far as we know) in 2007. If I were going to trade someone to the Miami Heat for Shaqulle O'Neal (which I'm not sure I would have done), I would offer Amare Stoudemire instead of Shawn Marion. It would have replaced Amare Stoudemire's offensive power with O'Neal's, without taking away Marion's defense, rebounding or durability.
If you ask how that solves the problem of Shawn Marion's ego, I say it ameliorates the problem sufficiently, by removing the player who was probably the main focus of Marion's insecurity.
SirStefan32
Krycek, Alex Krycek
I remember watching some Amare clips from early in his career a few years ago and being absolutely shocked seeing how athletic he was before his injuries. While he was frustrating to watch on defense and watch rebounds go all around him, we forget how incredible he was offensively. I often think about how good Ayton would be if he had Amare's mindset and aggression.
Ouchie-Z-Clown
I'm better than Mulli!
At their peaks Marion helped teams to win. Amare drove them to win. Amare was a foundational player. Marion was one of the greatest non-foundational dirt workers in history. There’s a good place for both of them in the suns history books n
Covert Rain
Father smelt of elderberries!
There are only a handful of players I would consider "freaks of nature". There have been a ton of great skilled players throughout NBA history but that's not the same IMO. Before Amare's injury he was the very definition of a freak of nature.
Western Font
ASFN Lifer
True. I heard it from fans before I heard it from him. But when he started it took a bit of the fun out of having his back.
overseascardfan
ASFN Addict
Pipe dream scenario because I don't think Sarver would like the price tag.
If ATL is as desperate to get out of John Collins' contract as reported then maybe we could help them out without sending Ayton.
PHX gets John Collins
ATL gets Landry Shamet, Dario Saric & future 1st round pick
ATL gets salary relief as Saric is expiring and Shamet is on a much cheaper deal than Collins and they get a future 1st rounder.
Collins and Ayton would solidify the frontcourt and in a couple of years when Paul's contract is up and additional TV money is in, Collins contract won't be an issue.
I don't want Capela, he is no where near the offensive talent Ayton is and is a very poor FT shooter who will have to go to bench in crunch time.
If ATL is as desperate to get out of John Collins' contract as reported then maybe we could help them out without sending Ayton.
PHX gets John Collins
ATL gets Landry Shamet, Dario Saric & future 1st round pick
ATL gets salary relief as Saric is expiring and Shamet is on a much cheaper deal than Collins and they get a future 1st rounder.
Collins and Ayton would solidify the frontcourt and in a couple of years when Paul's contract is up and additional TV money is in, Collins contract won't be an issue.
I don't want Capela, he is no where near the offensive talent Ayton is and is a very poor FT shooter who will have to go to bench in crunch time.
That would be the perfect outcome but ATL thinks they can contend they are looking for players to help them win.
overseascardfan
ASFN Addict
With the financial relief they get, ATL could go out and get another big piece in a separate trade. I think PHI would love to have Collins but would ATL want Tobias Harris and his contract?
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When I first saw Amare play in a Suns uniform my initial thought was the Suns finally have drafted a young Sean Kemp type player except Amare was better.
sdscard4
ASFN Lifer
Offensive talent and Ayton should never be used in the same sentence again
I remember my former teacher used to give us Suns tickets. Steve Grosz he did the music for the Suns in the arena.
Amares rookie year we went to a ton of games and there was so much talk of this was the kid that was going to bring a championship to the Suns. It was so exciting watching us build that young team. It was like we couldn’t miss in the draft
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it’s really nuts… we, as Arizona sports fans, have suffered every indignity humanly possible, and somehow, the BEST team we’ve EVER had, in ANY sport, somehow gave us the MOST PATHETIC end to any season, ever.
I still can’t believe that happened.
I still can’t believe that happened.
The Cardinals going to Carolina for the NFC championship game and turning it over 6 times was the most embarrassing thing I’ve ever seen
Phoenix Suns: Hold my beer
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It could have well happened if Amare stayed healthy.
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It’s funny but that game never bothered me. I didn’t expect us to win and kinda thought we might get blown out. It was bad for sure, but didn’t quite stick with me after.
OP
OP
GatorAZ
feed hopkins
Amare’s microfracture at 22 years old is the 2nd biggest what-if after the 69’ coinflip and then there’s a big drop off to #3. The crazy thing is he still came back and was a great offensive player. Truly a freak in his day.
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He was going to be the most unstoppable offensive force in the league. He had natural handles, a lightning fast first step, had already developed a solid jumper and had LeBron James-esque Unicorn explosive athleticism. And even better than all of this… he was fearless in the way he attacked with ALL of the above.
OP
OP
GatorAZ
feed hopkins
Really could’ve/should’ve had a core of MVP Nash, prime Marion and pre-prime Amare/JJ. You look at Golden St taking a $90m tax hit because they though Oubre was an upgrade over a league minimum player. Now they’re about to more-than-willingly pay a tax bill over $400m for the foreseeable future. It’s unfair as a fan to know your franchise will do whatever it takes.
It should be a hard cap.
